Salvation for Non Christian

[BobRyan]

If you don't accept Isaiah 61:1-3, or Genesis 3:15, then where IS the Old Testament quote for this verse:

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.

I don't reject Isaiah 61 or Genesis 3 or John 8. I accept them all. And I don't need Genesis 3 to quote John 8 -- in order to believe John 8.

I don't find this part to be very surprising.

 

[BobRyan]

Was all of this prophecy, below, already fulfilled in Ιησους' day?

Genesis 17:1-14 And Abram was ninety-nine years old, and the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, I am thy God: be well-pleasing before Me and be blameless,[2] and I will establish My Covenant between Me and thee, and I will multiply thee exceedingly.[3] And Abram fell upon his face, and God spoke to him, saying,[4] And I, behold! My Covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of a multitude of nations.[5] And thy name shall no more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraam, for I have made thee a father of many nations.[6] And I will increase thee very exceedingly, and I will make nations of thee and kings shall come out of thee.[7] And I will establish My Covenant between thee and thy seed after thee to their generations for an Everlasting Covenant, to be thy God and the God of thy seed after thee.LXX

When God speaks to Abraham in Gen 17- Isaac has not been born and there has been not one single nation that had arisen to claim Abraham as their father - let alone "many nations".

Rom 4 says God views those things (in the future) that are not - as though they are.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Where are these good non Christian people (Teacher, Volunteer, Fire Fighter, etc) going afterlife without salvation ?

The Scripture says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and that there are none righteous, no, not one.

The good deeds that people do come from their own self-righteousness, and the Scripture says that self-righteousness is as filthy rags before God. This means that all the good deeds that people do are corrupted by sin.

The starting point for salvation in Christ is the personal acknowledgment that the person is a sinner, deserving of hell, no matter how many good deeds they do. Unless they get the bad news about themselves, they will not appreciate the good news of the Gospel of Christ.

Furthermore, a person cannot be convicted of their sinfulness and need of a Saviour unless the Holy Spirit opens their "eyes" to see their own sinfulness which has put them on the road to hell. It is the Lord's decision whether to enlighten a condemned sinner, or leave their hearts hardened and on the road to hell.

So, all the good deeds people do, which make them famous or known in the world for them, have no value to God at all. Even their good deeds are part of them being workers of iniquity whom Christ does not know.

 

[Ligurian]

I don't reject Isaiah 61 or Genesis 3 or John 8. I accept them all. And I don't need Genesis 3 to quote John 8 -- in order to believe John 8.

I don't find this part to be very surprising.

Where is the Old Testament quote for this verse?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.

 

[Ligurian]

Wasn't all of this prophecy, below, already fulfilled in Ιησους' day?

Genesis 17:1-21 And Abram was ninety-nine years old, and the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, I am thy God: be well-pleasing before Me and be blameless,[2] and I will establish My Covenant between Me and thee, and I will multiply thee exceedingly.[3] And Abram fell upon his face, and God spoke to him, saying,[4] And I, behold! My Covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of a multitude of nations.[5] And thy name shall no more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraam, for I have made thee a father of many nations.[6] And I will increase thee very exceedingly, and I will make nations of thee and kings shall come out of thee.[7] And I will establish My Covenant between thee and thy seed after thee to their generations for an Everlasting Covenant, to be thy God and the God of thy seed after thee. ...[21] I will establish My Covenant with Isaac...LXX

Genesis 28:1-4 And Isaac having called for Jacob, blessed him and charged him, saying, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of the Chananites.[2] Rise and depart quickly into Mesopotamia, to the house of Bathuel the father of thy mother, and take to thyself thence a wife of the daughters of Laban thy mother’s brother.[3] And may my God bless thee, and increase thee and multiply thee, and thou shalt become gatherings of nations.[4] And may He give thee the blessing of my father Abraam, even to thee and to thy seed after thee, to inherit the land of thy sojourning, which God gave to Abraam.LXX

Genesis 28:10-14 And Jacob went forth from the well of the oath, and departed into Charrhan,[11] and came to a certain place and slept there for the sun had gone down; and he took one of the stones of the place and put it at his head and lay down to sleep in that place[12] and dreamed, and behold a ladder fixed on the earth whose top reached to heaven, and the angels of God ascended and descended on it.[13] And the Lord stood upon it, and said, I am the God of thy father Abraam and the God of Isaac: fear not, the land on which thou liest, to thee will I give it and to thy seed.[14] And thy seed shall be as the sand of the earth: and it shall spread abroad to the sea and the south and the north and to the east, and in thee and in thy seed shall all the tribes of the earth be blessed.LXX

When God speaks to Abraham in Gen 17- Isaac has not been born and there has been not one single nation that had arisen to claim Abraham as their father - let alone "many nations".

Where did God say they would claim Abraham, Isaac or Jacob as their father? And how do we know that they hadn't done so? The library at Alexandria was burned, the histories of the Druids were burned. The dark ages were intentionally kept dark via "the powers that be" of their times. Cirencestor said his boss wouldn't let him write the whole history that went with his map... so the map began to be called a forgery, because of the lack of textual support... and that's where it remains today. I've noticed that "forgery" is what an honest person would probably call "inconvenient history," or "banned". History is a set of lies agreed upon.

The "Historical Library" of Diodorus Siculus is a detailed account of Greek and Roman history down to the author's own time (about 60 B.C.). Unfortunately the second half (books 21-40) has only survived in fragments, but even these fragments represent one of the most important sources for the history of the period that they cover.
Diodorus Siculus : Books 33 - 40

=================== so much for my rant. Now...

Wasn't all of the prophecy below, already fulfilled in Ιησους' day? Isn't that why Matthew 28:18-20 sent the found-sheep of the House of Israel to go into all the nations and disciple the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel in those nations, too... making them the "other sheep" of another fold, John 10:16?

Since we can know that Matthew 10:5-7 is included in the "all things taught to them by Messiah"... we can know that they didn't go to the uncircumcision/gentiles.
Because, if they had, that would've been poaching on Paul's mission-field...
a big no-no for each group, given Galatians 2:7-9 and Matthew 10:5-7.

The excerpts of the post I quoted first, has the language strengthened each time, so that there is no confusion about what is meant, for honest readers.

Genesis 17:6-7 I will make nations of thee and kings shall come out of thee.LXX

Genesis 28:3 and thou shalt become gatherings of nations.LXX

Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the sand of the earth: and it shall spread abroad to the sea and the south and the north and to the east, and in thee and in thy seed shall all the tribes of the earth be blessed.LXX

This is the scattered tribes of Jacob, found in all of "the inhabited world" in those days... and found again with the prophets who called them from those compass-points... as well as from the west, in the last days:

Isaiah 43:1-7 And now thus saith the Lord God that made thee O Jacob, and formed thee O Israel, Fear not, for I have redeemed thee: I have called thee by thy name, thou art mine. ...[5] Fear not, for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and will gather thee from the west.[6] I will say to the north, Bring; and to the south, Keep not back: bring My sons from the land afar off, and My daughters from the ends of the earth,[7] even all who are called by My name. For I have prepared him for My glory and I have formed him and have made him:[8] and I have brought forth the blind people, for their eyes are alike blind and they that have ears are deaf.*LXX

These are the genetic seed of Jacob, coming home after the war.

_____________________
* Matthew 13:10-16 And the Disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given.[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear and shall not understand, and seeing ye shall see and shall not perceive:[15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed: lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart and should be converted and I should heal them.
[16] But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear.

The Disciples from Galilee were Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.
Matthew 13:13-15 = Isaiah 6:9-10...
...Isaiah 6:11-13 = how long the House of Judah will be blind.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
When God speaks to Abraham in Gen 17- Isaac has not been born and there has been not one single nation that had arisen to claim Abraham as their father - let alone "many nations".

Where did God say they would claim Abraham, Isaac or Jacob as their father? .

You post as if you have not taken the time to read the texts I referenced.

Gen 17:
5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.

God speaks of those things that are not - as though they were.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

 

[Soyeong]

Genesis 12:1-3 And the Lord said to Abram, Go forth out of thy land and out of thy kindred, and out of the house of thy father, and come into the land which I will shew thee.[2] And I will make thee a great nation, and I will bless thee and magnify thy name, and thou shalt be blessed.[3] And I will bless those that bless thee, and curse those that curse thee, and in thee shall all the tribes of the earth be blessed.

Not good news for those gentiles, either.

Genesis 12:1-5 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” 4 So Abram went, as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. 5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their possessions that they had gathered, and the people that they had acquired in Haran, and they set out to go to the land of Canaan. When they came to the land of Canaan,

It was very good news for the Gentiles that they converted in Haran.

 

[Ligurian]

Where did God say they would claim Abraham, Isaac or Jacob as their father? And how do we know that they hadn't done so? The library at Alexandria was burned, the histories of the Druids were burned. The dark ages were intentionally kept dark via "the powers that be" of their times. Cirencestor said his boss wouldn't let him write the whole history that went with his map... so the map began to be called a forgery, because of the lack of textual support... and that's where it remains today. I've noticed that "forgery" is what an honest person would probably call "inconvenient history," or "banned". History is a set of lies agreed upon.

The "Historical Library" of Diodorus Siculus is a detailed account of Greek and Roman history down to the author's own time (about 60 B.C.). Unfortunately the second half (books 21-40) has only survived in fragments, but even these fragments represent one of the most important sources for the history of the period that they cover.
Diodorus Siculus : Books 33 - 40

=================== so much for my rant. Now...

Wasn't all of the prophecy below, already fulfilled in Ιησους' day? Isn't that why Matthew 28:18-20 sent the found-sheep of the House of Israel to go into all the nations and disciple the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel in those nations, too... making them the "other sheep" of another fold, John 10:16?

Since we can know that Matthew 10:5-7 is included in the "all things taught to them by Messiah"... we can know that they didn't go to the uncircumcision/gentiles.
Because, if they had, that would've been poaching on Paul's mission-field...
a big no-no for each group, given Galatians 2:7-9 and Matthew 10:5-7.

The excerpts of the post I quoted first, has the language strengthened each time, so that there is no confusion about what is meant, for honest readers.

Genesis 17:6-7 I will make nations of thee and kings shall come out of thee.LXX

Genesis 28:3 and thou shalt become gatherings of nations.LXX

Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the sand of the earth: and it shall spread abroad to the sea and the south and the north and to the east, and in thee and in thy seed shall all the tribes of the earth be blessed.LXX

This is the scattered tribes of Jacob, found in all of "the inhabited world" in those days... and found again with the prophets who called them from those compass-points... as well as from the west, in the last days:

Isaiah 43:1-7 And now thus saith the Lord God that made thee O Jacob, and formed thee O Israel, Fear not, for I have redeemed thee: I have called thee by thy name, thou art mine. ...[5] Fear not, for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and will gather thee from the west.[6] I will say to the north, Bring; and to the south, Keep not back: bring My sons from the land afar off, and My daughters from the ends of the earth,[7] even all who are called by My name. For I have prepared him for My glory and I have formed him and have made him:[8] and I have brought forth the blind people, for their eyes are alike blind and they that have ears are deaf.*LXX

These are the genetic seed of Jacob, coming home after the war.

_____________________
* Matthew 13:10-16 And the Disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given.[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear and shall not understand, and seeing ye shall see and shall not perceive:[15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed: lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart and should be converted and I should heal them.
[16] But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear.

The Disciples from Galilee were Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.
Matthew 13:13-15 = Isaiah 6:9-10...
...Isaiah 6:11-13 = how long the House of Judah will be blind.

BobRyan said: ↑
When God speaks to Abraham in Gen 17- Isaac has not been born and there has been not one single nation that had arisen to claim Abraham as their father - let alone "many nations".



You post as if you have not taken the time to read the texts I referenced.

Gen 17:
5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.

God speaks of those things that are not - as though they were.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

And you post as though you've never read what I wrote.
Because we're not using the same dictionary/gospel.
I don't follow Romans-Paul... that doesn't mean I don't think gentiles do.

 

[Ligurian]

Genesis 12:1-3 And the Lord said to Abram, Go forth out of thy land and out of thy kindred, and out of the house of thy father, and come into the land which I will shew thee.[2] And I will make thee a great nation, and I will bless thee and magnify thy name, and thou shalt be blessed.[3] And I will bless those that bless thee, and curse those that curse thee, and in thee shall all the tribes of the earth be blessed.

Not good news for those gentiles, either.

Genesis 12:1-5 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” 4 So Abram went, as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. 5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their possessions that they had gathered, and the people that they had acquired in Haran, and they set out to go to the land of Canaan. When they came to the land of Canaan,

It was very good news for the Gentiles that they converted in Haran.

You're acting like the gentiles in Haran are the only gentiles in the story. What about the Hittites, Amorites, Jebusites, etc.? The Amorites apparently spoke semitic... wouldn't a similar "conversion" have been possible?
And what does "conversion" have to do with the "gospel to the gentiles", anyway? Paul never tells the gentiles that they had to "convert"... in fact, he says the opposite, in no uncertain terms... all over his gospel.
So it's hard to understand why you would've ever mentioned the so-called conversion of the so-called gentiles in Haran.

What's also hard to understand is exactly HOW the gentiles are "blessing" the people who's name they've run off with... acting like there was not the slightest hint of the 10-lost-tribes ever believing the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel... when both Matthew and John AND the Revelation say that they did and still do.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't follow Romans-Paul... that doesn't mean I don't think gentiles do.

????

 

[dcalling]

You're acting like the gentiles in Haran are the only gentiles in the story. What about the Hittites, Amorites, Jebusites, etc.? The Amorites apparently spoke semitic... wouldn't a similar "conversion" have been possible?
And what does "conversion" have to do with the "gospel to the gentiles", anyway? Paul never tells the gentiles that they had to "convert"... in fact, he says the opposite, in no uncertain terms... all over his gospel.
So it's hard to understand why you would've ever mentioned the so-called conversion of the so-called gentiles in Haran.

What's also hard to understand is exactly HOW the gentiles are "blessing" the people who's name they've run off with... acting like there was not the slightest hint of the 10-lost-tribes ever believing the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel... when both Matthew and John AND the Revelation say that they did and still do.

There are many gentiles saved, the hooker, Jude, even a Judge of Isreal is gentile. All that required is a heart to follow God, if you look at what the Isrealites did during the time, God punish them for what they did, and if gentiles follow God, God accepts them. The people in Canaan was following God before (remember Avmlech), but God knows they will turn against Him and waited 400 years for them to turn completely evil.

 

[BobRyan]

There are many gentiles saved, the hooker, Jude, even a Judge of Isreal is gentile. All that required is a heart to follow God, if you look at what the Isrealites did during the time, God punish them for what they did, and if gentiles follow God, God accepts them. The people in Canaan was following God before (remember Avmlech), but God knows they will turn against Him and waited 400 years for them to turn completely evil.

yes God can and does save gentiles.

According to Rom 2:13-16 some of them are saved without even having access to scripture.

 

[Ligurian]

Paul never tells the gentiles that they had to "convert"... in fact, he says the opposite, in no uncertain terms... all over his gospel.
What's also hard to understand is exactly HOW the gentiles are "blessing" the people who's name they've run off with... acting like there was not the slightest hint of the 10-lost-tribes ever believing the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel... when both Matthew and John AND the Revelation say that they did and still do.

There are many gentiles saved, the hooker, Jude, even a Judge of Isreal is gentile. All that required is a heart to follow God, if you look at what the Isrealites did during the time, God punish them for what they did, and if gentiles follow God, God accepts them. The people in Canaan was following God before (remember Avmlech), but God knows they will turn against Him and waited 400 years for them to turn completely evil.

There've always been proselytes ...sometimes, the proselytes rule... not a good idea

Here:

Acts of the Apostles 6:5 Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch...
(Revelation 2:2-7 Nicolaitans, false apostles)
(Revelation 2:14-15 Nicolaitans, doctrine of Balaam)

Or Here:

Deuteronomy 28:43-52 [43] The (προσήλυτος) proselyte who is among you shall ascend over you upward and upward; but you shall go down lower and lower.[44] This one shall lend to you, but you to this one shall not lend; this one will be for the head, and you will be for the tail.[45] And shall come upon you all these curses, and they shall pursue you, and overtake you, until whenever they shall utterly destroy you, and until whenever they shall consume you. For you did not listen to the voice of the lord your God, to guard His Commandments and His Ordinances, as many as I gave charge to you.[46] And [they] will be for signs to you, and miracles, and among your seed until the eon.[47] Because you did not serve [the] LORD your God with gladness, and with a good heart, because of the multitude of all these.[48] And you shalt serve your enemies whom the LORD shall send as a successor over you in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in the want of all things. And he shall put a collar of iron upon your neck, until whenever he should utterly destroy you.[49] Shall bring upon you [the] LORD a nation far off from [the] end of the earth, as the impulse an eagle, a nation of which you will not hear its voice;[50] a nation impudent in [its] face, who will not admire [the] face of an old man, and for [the] young will not show mercy.[51] And it will devour the progeny of your cattle, and the produce of your land, so as not to leave behind for you grain, wine, olive oil, herds of your oxen, and the flocks of your sheep, until whenever it should destroy you,[52] and should obliterate you in all your cities, until whenever should be demolished your walls--the high and the fortified [ones] upon which you rely upon them in all your land--and it shall afflict you in all your cities, which gave to you [the] LORD your God.LXX

Daniel 8:23-25 [23] And at [the] last of their kingdom, being full of the sins, shall rise up a king with an impudent face, and perceiving riddles.[24] And [is] fortified his strength, and not by his strength. And wonderfully he shall corrupt and shall prosper, and shall perform, and shall corrupt strong ones and people holy.[25] And the (ζυγός) yoke of the collar shall prosper treachery in his hand, and in his heart he shall magnify himself, and by treachery he shall corrupt many, and for a destruction of many he shall establish himself, and as eggs in a hand he shall break.LXX

Revelation 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a (ζυγός) pair of balances in his hand.

_______________________
Rahab... was she really from another race? Because it doesn't seem like Ruth was really a Moabite, either, since that land belonged to Reuben. Palmer's Bible Atlas shows the Plains of Moab on Reuben's land.

 

[dcalling]

Nothing is wrong about proselytes, the word used in Rev 28:43 is foreigners (Hagr), see Deuteronomy 28:43 Interlinear: the sojourner who is in thy midst goeth up above thee very high, and thou goest down very low;.

And Nicolas in Acts only share a name with Nico in Rev, so no one is sure if they are the same. And even if they are the same, it is not he is a proselytes, but he is Balaam like, i.e. lure people of faith to bad acts.

I am a proselyte, was an atheist, but God's omnipotent power changed me, and I am a new man in Christ, my past wiped (well, not totally, but my past won't affect me any more, only serve as a tool for the good of believers).

There've always been proselytes ...sometimes, the proselytes rule... not a good idea

Here:

Acts of the Apostles 6:5 Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch...
(Revelation 2:2-7 Nicolaitans, false apostles)
(Revelation 2:14-15 Nicolaitans, doctrine of Balaam)

Or Here:

Deuteronomy 28:43-52 [43] The (προσήλυτος) proselyte who is among you shall ascend over you upward and upward; but you shall go down lower and lower.[44] This one shall lend to you, but you to this one shall not lend; this one will be for the head, and you will be for the tail.[45] And shall come upon you all these curses, and they shall pursue you, and overtake you, until whenever they shall utterly destroy you, and until whenever they shall consume you. For you did not listen to the voice of the lord your God, to guard His Commandments and His Ordinances, as many as I gave charge to you.[46] And [they] will be for signs to you, and miracles, and among your seed until the eon.[47] Because you did not serve [the] LORD your God with gladness, and with a good heart, because of the multitude of all these.[48] And you shalt serve your enemies whom the LORD shall send as a successor over you in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in the want of all things. And he shall put a collar of iron upon your neck, until whenever he should utterly destroy you.[49] Shall bring upon you [the] LORD a nation far off from [the] end of the earth, as the impulse an eagle, a nation of which you will not hear its voice;[50] a nation impudent in [its] face, who will not admire [the] face of an old man, and for [the] young will not show mercy.[51] And it will devour the progeny of your cattle, and the produce of your land, so as not to leave behind for you grain, wine, olive oil, herds of your oxen, and the flocks of your sheep, until whenever it should destroy you,[52] and should obliterate you in all your cities, until whenever should be demolished your walls--the high and the fortified [ones] upon which you rely upon them in all your land--and it shall afflict you in all your cities, which gave to you [the] LORD your God.LXX

Daniel 8:23-25 [23] And at [the] last of their kingdom, being full of the sins, shall rise up a king with an impudent face, and perceiving riddles.[24] And [is] fortified his strength, and not by his strength. And wonderfully he shall corrupt and shall prosper, and shall perform, and shall corrupt strong ones and people holy.[25] And the (ζυγός) yoke of the collar shall prosper treachery in his hand, and in his heart he shall magnify himself, and by treachery he shall corrupt many, and for a destruction of many he shall establish himself, and as eggs in a hand he shall break.LXX

Revelation 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a (ζυγός) pair of balances in his hand.

_______________________
Rahab... was she really from another race? Because it doesn't seem like Ruth was really a Moabite, either, since that land belonged to Reuben. Palmer's Bible Atlas shows the Plains of Moab on Reuben's land.

 

[Ligurian]

There've always been proselytes...sometimes, the proselytes rule.
Not a good idea
Here:
Acts of the Apostles 6:5 Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch...
(Revelation 2:2-7 Nicolaitans, false apostles)
(Revelation 2:14-15 Nicolaitans, doctrine of Balaam)

Or Here:
Deuteronomy 28:43-52 [43] The (προσήλυτος) proselyte who is among you shall ascend over you upward and upward, but you shall go down lower and lower.[44] This one shall lend to you, but you to this one shall not lend; this one will be for the head, and you will be for the tail.

Nothing is wrong about proselytes, the word used in Rev 28:43 is foreigners (Hagr), see Deuteronomy 28:43 Interlinear: the sojourner who is in thy midst goeth up above thee very high, and thou goest down very low;.

And Nicolas in Acts only share a name with Nico in Rev, so no one is sure if they are the same. And even if they are the same, it is not he is a proselytes, but he is Balaam like, i.e. lure people of faith to bad acts.

I am a proselyte, was an atheist, but God's omnipotent power changed me, and I am a new man in Christ, my past wiped (well, not totally, but my past won't affect me any more, only serve as a tool for the good of believers).

I'm definitely not saying proselytes are a bad thing... just that they shouldn't seek to rule the natural children.

In Deuteronomy 28:43, from the Septuagint that Ιησους quotes:
προσήλυτος = proselytes, letter for letter:
proshlutos (h is a breath, not an 'sh' sound)

Proselytes are strangers, in Isaiah 56:6-8.

Nicolas of Antioch is called apostate, in church history, with the nature of Jude 1:11-13.

 

[dcalling]

I'm definitely not saying proselytes are a bad thing... just that they shouldn't seek to rule the natural children.

In Deuteronomy 28:43, from the Septuagint that Ιησους quotes:
προσήλυτος = proselytes, letter for letter:
proshlutos (h is a breath, not an 'sh' sound)

Proselytes are strangers, in Isaiah 56:6-8.

Nicolas of Antioch is called apostate, in church history, with the nature of Jude 1:11-13.

Understood, but I quoted the original hebrew, which is הַגֵּר֙, alien, strangers, not converts. Deuteronomy 28:43 Interlinear: the sojourner who is in thy midst goeth up above thee very high, and thou goest down very low;.

And in Isaiah 56:6-8, it is also talking about the foreigners who love and serve God, the same word is used in Gen 35:2, 35:4 etc, Genesis 35:2 Hebrew Text Analysis, Jacob put away foreign gods, it can't be converted gods.

what I really want to say is, to God, what's in the heart is much more important than lineage.

 

[Ligurian]

Understood, but I quoted the original hebrew, which is הַגֵּר֙, alien, strangers, not converts. Deuteronomy 28:43 Interlinear: the sojourner who is in thy midst goeth up above thee very high, and thou goest down very low;.

The "original hebrew", in manuscripts? This is the earliest I could find:

"From the second, third, and fourth Christian centuries came reports of Greek and Hebrew books found in jars in the area. Origen, an early church father, is said to have used some of these in compiling his famous Hexapla. In the late eighth century Patriarch Timothy I reported a similar find, noting that the manuscripts were found in caves."
--Shanks ed., Understanding The Dead Sea Scrolls

what I really want to say is, to God, what's in the heart is much more important than lineage.

I used to feel that way, too. But Prophecy changed my mind:

Because the 10-Lost-Tribes were scattered into every nation, since the Egyptian bondage.

... ... ... In the Assyrian Captivity, +/- 722 B.C. ... ... ...

Hosea 1:6-10 And she conceived again, and bore a daughter. And he said to him, Call her name, Unpitied: for I will no more have mercy on the House of Israel, but will surely set Myself in array against them.[7] But I will have mercy on the house of Juda…[8] And she weaned Unpitied, and she conceived again, and bore a son.[9] And He said, Call his name, Not My people: for ye are not My people, and I am not your God.[10]... and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, Ye are not My people, even they shall be called the sons of the living God. (John 11:52)

Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw that (for all the sins of which she was convicted, wherein the House of Israel committed adultery and I put her away, and gave into her hands a bill of divorcement,) yet faithless Juda feared not, but went and herself also committed fornication.

Hosea 2:1-23 [16] And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord, that she shall call Me, My husband (ανήρ), and shall no longer call Me Baalim.[23]And I will sow her to Me on the Earth, and will love her that was not loved: and will say to that which was not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art the Lord My God."LXX
(Jeremiah 3:8 not My people: put away, divorced)

Jeremiah 31:18-20 I have heard the sound of Ephraim lamenting, and saying, Thou hast chastened me and I was chastened. I as a calf was not willingly taught: turn Thou me and I shall turn, for Thou art the Lord my God.[19] For after my captivity I repented, and after I knew I groaned for the day of shame, and shewed Thee that I bore reproach from my youth.[20] Ephraim is a beloved son, a pleasing child to me, for because My words are in him I will surely remember him. Therefore I made haste to help him, I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.LXX

Jeremiah 3:21-25 A voice from the lips was heard, even of weeping and supplication of the children of Israel: for they have dealt unrighteously in their ways, they have forgotten God their Holy One.[22] Turn ye, children that are given to turning, and I will heal your bruises. Behold, we will be Thy servants; for Thou art the Lord our God.[23] Truly the hills and the strength of the mountains were a lying refuge: but by the Lord our God is the salvation of Israel.[24] But shame has consumed the labours of our fathers from our youth: their sheep and their calves, and their sons and their daughters.[25] We have lain down in our shame and our disgrace has covered us: because we and our fathers have sinned before our God, from our youth until this day, and we have not hearkened to the voice of the Lord our God.LXX

The Father never repented of chosing Abraham, Isaac, Jacob... and Ephraim.

 

[BobRyan]

Nothing is wrong about proselytes, the word used in Rev 28:43 is foreigners (Hagr), see Deuteronomy 28:43 Interlinear: the sojourner who is in thy midst goeth up above thee very high, and thou goest down very low;.

And Nicolas in Acts only share a name with Nico in Rev, so no one is sure if they are the same. And even if they are the same, it is not he is a proselytes, but he is Balaam like, i.e. lure people of faith to bad acts.

I am a proselyte, was an atheist, but God's omnipotent power changed me, and I am a new man in Christ, my past wiped (well, not totally, but my past won't affect me any more, only serve as a tool for the good of believers).

Is 56:
2 “How blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who takes hold of it;
Who keeps from profaning the sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from His people.”
Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.”

4 For thus says the Lord,
“To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.

6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

 

[Proselyte of Yah]

I'm a Christian who doesn't believe anyone has gone to Heaven yet, not even the 12 Disciples, as I believe this to be the heresy of Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18), and that the resurrection doesn't happen until Christ's second Advent, when those in Christ come out of the grave and are taken up with other faithful ones on the last day (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Mark 13:26).

Even early Christian Justin Martyr commented on this:

"You may have fallen in with some who are ‘called’ “Christians“. However they do not admit this [truth], and they venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham… They say there is no resurrection of the dead, but rather, they say that when they die, their souls are taken to heaven. Do not imagine that they are Christians.” – Justin Martyr (160 CE)



In my view, I'd like to share Acts 24:15 and Revelation 20:4-6, 12-14:


"I have the same hope in God that these men have, that he will raise both the righteous and the unrighteous"

“Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with [the] Anointed One for a thousand years. [The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete]. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of [the] Anointed, and will reign with Him for a thousand years... And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Sheol gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. Then Death and Sheol were thrown into the lake of fire”.

From my understanding, Jesus will come, and will take up faithful Christians to be saved, and then God's Kingdom will rule and judge the Earth. Those of the Second Resurrection are those not in Christ, but will be judged possibly, for the deeds they have done in this life, if they do not repent on being raised from the dead, and also must pass the final test of Satan when he is released one last time upon the Earth, whilst Christ is ruling (Revelation 20:3). Then it will all be finally over forever.

During that time, it is my outlook that those who did not get chance to know Christ in this life and all the worldly nations, might get chance in that time, and will have to show and prove their faith, in the way that Christians have today in our time.

The current purpose of God it seems, is to gather and "fill up the number of Gentiles" for his Kingdom (Romans 11:25), where he will give many a place as Christ's Bride, and over the belongings, and the advantage of being faithful now, is glory of that first resurrection, and safety from the final release of the Devil, and to be at Christ's side during this final work.

My view in this respect is "Millennialist".


But this is my personal outlook based upon my study of the scriptures, others are free to have another view.