Salvation Cannot be Lost

[d taylor]

Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts the lifestyle of believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkenness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Now, some will argue that the word “sleep” in 1 Thess 5 refers to physical death, just as Paul used it in the previous chapter:

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It is clear that in the context of 1 Thess 4, “falling asleep” refers to physical death. But, in the next chapter, the context isn’t about who is physically alive vs who is physically dead, as claimed by Arminians, but rather, the context is about the believer’s lifestyle, as the comparisons clearly show.

However, here are passages that also use the word “sleep” as a metaphor for lifestyle:

Rom 13:11:14

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

So, how would an OSNAS type explain Paul’s command to ‘wake up from your slumber”, if sleeping is literal? Impossible.

Eph 5:12-16

12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. 14 This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” 15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.

It’s clear that waking up is in reference to one’s lifestyle; “how you live” from v.15.

Rev 3:1-3

1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Again, the context is clear: being “dead” or “alive” is in the context of lifestyle.

Rev 16:15

15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Again, "staying awake” is in reference to lifestyle (going naked and be exposed). By “staying awake”, we will “not go naked and be shamefully exposed”.

So, 1 Thess 5:9-10 is clear.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

God has destined the believer for salvation. Therefore, “whether we are awake or sleep”, the promise is CLEAR: “we WILL LIVE together with Him”.

This isn’t to defend a sinful lifestyle in any way. This is, rather, to defend the biblical teaching that one’s behavior/lifestyle doesn’t determine one’s eternal destiny.

One’s eternal destiny is sealed by whether or not one has put their trust in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, for the gift of eternal life.

On that basis alone, the believer shall NEVER perish.

John 10:28 - I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (believers) shall NEVER PERISH.

First time i have seen a free grace person here. Nice post

 

[Phil W]

No, in short, you aren't comprehending anything I post.
Those who have read and understand what I post have seen clearly that the choice to be a servant of sin is the WRONG CHOICE.

A choice God has enabled us to refuse...with our rebirth through our participation in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
There is no longer an excuse for sinning.
The "flesh" is as dead as Jesus was.
We have been raised with Christ as new creatures from the seed of the incapable of sin God.
If we are of God, we too are incapable of sinning.
Thanks be to God, we have also been given apostles, prophets, and pastors to help keep us on the narrow path.

Those who chose to commit sin manifest that they are not of God's seed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

First time i have seen a free grace person here. Nice post

Thank you!

 

[FreeGrace2]

A choice God has enabled us to refuse...with our rebirth through our participation in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Still missing the point completely. Of course sin is a choice. And with choice, proves ability. But your theory is that new creatures (2 Cor 5:17) CANNOT sin.

So, you're still talking out of both sides of your mouth. Since believers have the choice, they have the ability.

If new creatures don't have their sinful nature any more (as you claim), then they do NOT have ANY choice to sin.

There is no longer an excuse for sinning.

Exactly my point!!

The "flesh" is as dead as Jesus was.

Then there would be NO CHOICE. But you opened this post with an admission that believers do have a choice.

We have been raised with Christ as new creatures from the seed of the incapable of sin God.

Your claims are internally contradictory. My claim is consistent with Scripture; the new nature given at regeneration cannot sin, and the believer HAS THE CHOICE to function from the new nature, instead of the sinful nature.

If we are of God, we too are incapable of sinning.

Your new nature is of God, and cannot sin. You STILL have your sinful nature, which is proven by the FACT that believers have a choice of which nature to follow.

Thanks be to God, we have also been given apostles, prophets, and pastors to help keep us on the narrow path.

Haven't you figured out by now that IF believers no longer have a sinful nature, and therefore cannot sin, they don't need anyone to "help keep us on the narrow path".

I'm just amazed that you can't see the total inconsistency of your theory.

Those who chose to commit sin manifest that they are not of God's seed.

They are not functioning from God's seed.

Scripture is clear that believers sin. And you admit that sin is a choice. So, there you go.

 

[Phil W]

Still missing the point completely. Of course sin is a choice. And with choice, proves ability. But your theory is that new creatures (2 Cor 5:17) CANNOT sin.

As a man reborn of the seed of God, I am incapable of committing sin.
Grape vines cannot bear figs...remember?
My choice is to keep manifesting that inherited ability.
If I quit being "of God", I can do all the deranged hateful actions of the unbeliever.
But if I want to keep saying I am born of God, I can't commit sin.

So, you're still talking out of both sides of your mouth. Since believers have the choice, they have the ability.

Their choice to bring forth the fruit of the devil announces that they are not real believers.

If new creatures don't have their sinful nature any more (as you claim), then they do NOT have ANY choice to sin.

They don't...if they want to keep saying they are born of God's seed.
Their choice is to keep manifesting from whence they are reborn.

Then there would be NO CHOICE. But you opened this post with an admission that believers do have a choice.

They do have the choice, as to whether or not they want to keep saying they are born of God.
My choice to say I am reborn of Godly seed depends on my choice to abstain from sin.

Your claims are internally contradictory. My claim is consistent with Scripture; the new nature given at regeneration cannot sin, and the believer HAS THE CHOICE to function from the new nature, instead of the sinful nature.

Why would God leave any part of the old man that was crucified and buried with Christ to louse up His new creature?
He wouldn't.
It would amount to a defiled temple for the Holy Ghost.

Your new nature is of God, and cannot sin. You STILL have your sinful nature, which is proven by the FACT that believers have a choice of which nature to follow.

"...old things are passed away; behold, all things are made new." (2 Cor 5:17)
Your doctrine accommodates the old while falsely claiming the new.

Haven't you figured out by now that IF believers no longer have a sinful nature, and therefore cannot sin, they don't need anyone to "help keep us on the narrow path".

I cannot commit sin...as long as I obey God in all things.
I don't know everything pursuant to life in Christ yet, so I do still require guidance in order to keep manifesting the kingdom of God on earth now.
I am growing in grace and knowledge daily.

I'm just amazed that you can't see the total inconsistency of your theory.

It is simply adhering to scripture.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:9-10)

The temptations of this world don't cease at conversion.
Everyone of them is an attempt by the devil to get me to forsake my love of God for a love of self instead.
To serve myself instead of serving God is idolatry.
My new divine nature is from God.
My old self-centered nature was killed with the flesh, vile affections, and lusts when I was "immersed" into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)
And I thank God for it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As a man reborn of the seed of God, I am incapable of committing sin.

You are contradicting what you have already admitted to. That sin is a choice. If believers are incapable of sin, there is no choice to sin.

Grape vines cannot bear figs...remember?
My choice is to keep manifesting that inherited ability.

What's the other side of your choice?

If I quit being "of God", I can do all the deranged hateful actions of the unbeliever.

How is that a choice, since you claim to be incapable of sinning?

But if I want to keep saying I am born of God, I can't commit sin.

You can say whatever you want, but if you do have a choice, you ARE capable of sin.

Their choice to bring forth the fruit of the devil announces that they are not real believers.

The Bible says quite differently. Believers are commanded to be holy. Commanded to stop sinning. Commanded to stop grieving the Holy Spirit.

They do have the choice, as to whether or not they want to keep saying they are born of God.

What in the world does what they "keep saying" have to do with anything? Do you have any verses that support your claims here?

And again, choice means ability.

My choice to say I am reborn of Godly seed depends on my choice to abstain from sin.

Since you admit you have a choide to abstain from sin, means that you HAVE THE ABILITY TO SIN. Period.

Why would God leave any part of the old man that was crucified and buried with Christ to louse up His new creature?

He already has a plan for that. It's called glorification when the resurrected believer gets their new resurrection body. Maybe you haven't gotten the memo on that.

It would amount to a defiled temple for the Holy Ghost.

It's already occurring. It's called grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit. And believers are commanded to stop doing that.

"...old things are passed away; behold, all things are made new." (2 Cor 5:17)
Your doctrine accommodates the old while falsely claiming the new.

lol Your claims proves that the believer can accommodate the old. You called it "choice", remember?

I cannot commit sin...as long as I obey God in all things.

Contradictory again. Your "as long as" condition proves your sinless claim false. You have the ability to sin. So you CAN sin. But you're just speaking out of both sides of your mouth now.

I don't know everything pursuant to life in Christ yet, so I do still require guidance in order to keep manifesting the kingdom of God on earth now.
I am growing in grace and knowledge daily.

If you were as sinless as you've been claiming, you would have no need guidance, or growing.

The temptations of this world don't cease at conversion.

But in your world, they are irrelevant to one who CAN'T sin. Temptations are meaningless to a perfects person, since they can't sin.

Everyone of them is an attempt by the devil to get me to forsake my love of God for a love of self instead.

See? What have I been telling you? You CAN sin. You have the ability to sin.

To serve myself instead of serving God is idolatry.

Yep. You do have that ability.

My new divine nature is from God.

And it struggles with your stinking old sin nature.

My old self-centered nature was killed with the flesh, vile affections, and lusts when I was "immersed" into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)
And I thank God for it.

Scripture refutes your claims here. As I've proven from all the verses I've shared and you have yet to address and explain how they can be directed to believers.

 

[Phil W]

You are contradicting what you have already admitted to. That sin is a choice. If believers are incapable of sin, there is no choice to sin.

The choice to show you are not really a believer is always available
Sinners don't believe 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
Look for and take the escapes and you won't commit sin!

 

[FreeGrace2]

The choice to show you are not really a believer is always available

You know good and well that's not the issue, nor the discussion.

You have claimed that you cannot sin, because you only have a new nature.
You have also admitted that sin is a choice.

So, make up your mind. Can't be both.

Sinners don't believe 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
Look for and take the escapes and you won't commit sin!

Why would you assume that God keeps believers from sinning? He didn't keep Adam from it?

And you have no proof from Scripture for any of your assumptions and presumptions.

What you can't answer is why Paul wrote this:

Rom 7:18 - For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

And please don't bore me with your "historical present" defense. Unless you can PROVE from the context that Paul WAS speaking of some past condition.

Consider both sentences in v.18. The first sentence acknowledges his sinful nature in plain language.

But, if you argue that this is some kind of "historical present", the second sentence doesn't make any sense. No unbeliever has "the desire to do what is good".

So, the second sentence REFUTES and DISPROVES your claim that v.18 is a historical present.

Further, as to your use of the historical present, I decided to look it up in Daniel Wallace's excellent resource, Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics on page 752.

I quote:

"Historial Present (Dramatic Present): describes a past event in narrative literature (only indicative, third person; used for vividness.)"

Hm. There you go. You have NO "narrative literature" in Rom 6 or 7.

Paul was speaking about his current state of being.

 

[Phil W]

You know good and well that's not the issue, nor the discussion.
You have claimed that you cannot sin, because you only have a new nature.
You have also admitted that sin is a choice.
So, make up your mind. Can't be both.

Why not?
Why can't I be born of God's seed and still have the option of relinquishing my inheritance?

Why would you assume that God keeps believers from sinning? He didn't keep Adam from it?

It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
He provides the escapes from temptation for those who love Him above all else.
Are you not a believer?

And you have no proof from Scripture for any of your assumptions and presumptions.

Always.

What you can't answer is why Paul wrote this:

Rom 7:18 - For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
And please don't bore me with your "historical present" defense. Unless you can PROVE from the context that Paul WAS speaking of some past condition.

Because Rom 8:2 says he has been freed from the law of sin by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
If he is free of the law of sin, his reminiscence of the law of sin in his members is from the past.
.

Further, as to your use of the historical present, I decided to look it up in Daniel Wallace's excellent resource, Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics on page 752.
I quote:
"Historial Present (Dramatic Present): describes a past event in narrative literature (only indicative, third person; used for vividness.)"
Hm. There you go. You have NO "narrative literature" in Rom 6 or 7.
Paul was speaking about his current state of being.

Were your opinion correct, then Rom 8:2 is a lie.
He hasn't been freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
It is a narrative, of his past as a Jewish Pharisee under the Mosaic Law...and of his failing to keep it perfectly.

I commend you for your research into the present-historical tense.
It proves you are not a robot.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"You have claimed that you cannot sin, because you only have a new nature.
You have also admitted that sin is a choice.
So, make up your mind. Can't be both."

Why not?

There's your problem. You cannot see a contradiction.

A choice, by definition, means an ability.

For example, you cannot choose to jump straight up 10 feet into the air, because you don't have the ability to do so. Or run a mile in 3 minutes, because you don't have the ability to do so.

In fact, to make a statement that you simply do not choose to do something that would be obvious that you cannot do would be the height of silliness.

Why don't you try this on your own and see the response. In a group of friends or acquaintances, announce that you choose not to fly by your own power. See how far that will get you.

So, you CANNOT choose to do that which you CANNOT do. Nor can you choose NOT to do what you CANNOT do. That is absurdity.

Why can't I be born of God's seed and still have the option of relinquishing my inheritance?

Because Jesus said you can't. Here is what He said about the subject of losing salvation:

John 10:28 - I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (believers) shall never perish.

How long is "never"? Pretty long.

The ONLY WAY to never perish (go to hell) is to be given eternal life. That's what Jesus meant, obviously.

It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
He provides the escapes from temptation for those who love Him above all else.
Are you not a believer?

I sure am. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He died personally for me, and paid my sin debt fully, and that He gives the gift of eternal life to those who trust Him to save them. Therefore, I possess eternal life and cannot perish.

And that is true of everyone who has believed in Him for salvation. They cannot perish.

Or, do you think "shall never perish" means that some CAN perish??????

I asked this:
"What you can't answer is why Paul wrote this:
Rom 7:18 - For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
And please don't bore me with your "historical present" defense. Unless you can PROVE from the context that Paul WAS speaking of some past condition."

Your response:

Because Rom 8:2 says he has been freed from the law of sin by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
If he is free of the law of sin, his reminiscence of the law of sin in his members is from the past.

What you still don't understand is what "law of sin" means. It means the penalty of sin. Don't you understand that the law is about penalties? When one breaks the law, they are UNDER the law. Under the penalty of that law.

All unbelievers are UNDER the law of sin. But believers have been freed from that law, because Jesus took their penalty for their sin. Or don't you understand this?
.

Were your opinion correct, then Rom 8:2 is a lie.

Since you have shown that you do not understand contradictions, I'm not surprised at your comment here.

He hasn't been freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

Absolutely NOT! Paul was freed from the law (penalty) of sin when he placed his faith in Christ.

It is a narrative, of his past as a Jewish Pharisee under the Mosaic Law...and of his failing to keep it perfectly.

And you cannot prove your claim about the historical present.

I commend you for your research into the present-historical tense.
It proves you are not a robot.

It also proves that your claims about the historical present are false.

But, instead of just throwing your cutesy ad hominems around, how about addressing what I quoted from a legitimate Greek grammar source. Or maybe you don't have any access to sources.

Paul wrote about his sinful nature in the present tense and I explained that the second half of that verse in Rom 7 proves he was speaking as a believer.

But don't take my word for it. Just go ahead and exegete the verse and prove he could have been talking about when he was an unbeliever.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"You have claimed that you cannot sin, because you only have a new nature.
You have also admitted that sin is a choice.
So, make up your mind. Can't be both."

There's your problem. You cannot see a contradiction.
A choice, by definition, means an ability.

Could Jesus have committed sin?.
He couldn't if He was going to manifest that He was the Son of God, but as a human the opportunities were there.
Is that a contradiction?
As long as I want to manifest that I was reborn of God's seed I will not commit sin.
If I decide some lust is more important to me than my love of God and hope of salvation, I can still turn from God.
That would nullify all my claims of being reborn of God's seed.
The judgement on the last day will determine if I was successful.
We are obligated to maintain our standing in Christ Jesus, because the devil works ceaselessly to separate us from our faith.

So, you CANNOT choose to do that which you CANNOT do. Nor can you choose NOT to do what you CANNOT do. That is absurdity.

My "cannot" depends on my faith in God.
If I loose my faith, I "can".

Because Jesus said you can't. Here is what He said about the subject of losing salvation:
John 10:28 - I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (believers) shall never perish.

Even they have to follow Him. (v 27)
If they are not following Him, the promise does not apply to them.

All unbelievers are UNDER the law of sin. But believers have been freed from that law, because Jesus took their penalty for their sin. Or don't you understand this?

As you are continually trying to prove Paul was still a sinner, he must then be "under the Law".
So, according to you, he was an unbeliever.

I read this tonight..."The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29)
There is no mention of only removing the penalty for sin of the world.
He came and conquered sin, freeing us from service to sin.
No sinner will find his name in the book of life, as he is dead in trespasses and sins.
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Could Jesus have committed sin?.

Good question. Since He has 2 natures, one human and one divine, the answer is both "yes" and "no".

In fact, the Romans had a saying to explain this.

poci non pocari, non poci pocari. Translation:
Able not to sin, not able to sin.

As I've repeatedly pointed out, the believer also has 2 natures, one human and one from God. We DO sin from our human nature, and we CAN'T sin from our new nature that was born of God.

He couldn't if He was going to manifest that He was the Son of God, but as a human the opportunities were there.
Is that a contradiction?

The contradiction is your claim that you no longer have a human nature. You know, the one that SINS.

As long as I want to manifest that I was reborn of God's seed I will not commit sin.

Your claim of not having a sin nature any more means your statement is irrelevant.

If I decide some lust is more important to me than my love of God and hope of salvation, I can still turn from God.

Without a sin nature? Why would you think that?

That would nullify all my claims of being reborn of God's seed.

I don't really care what you might do. Your claim that you no longer have a sin nature is unbiblical.

The judgement on the last day will determine if I was successful.

So, it appears you think your lifestyle will determine whether you enter heaven.

We are obligated to maintain our standing in Christ Jesus, because the devil works ceaselessly to separate us from our faith.

But we already know that there is NOTHING that an separate us from the love of Christ. Aren't you familiar with Romans 8:35-39?

I said:
"Here is what He said about the subject of losing salvation:
John 10:28 - I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (believers) shall never perish."

Even they have to follow Him. (v 27)
If they are not following Him, the promise does not apply to them.

Prove your claim, from the context. But I know that you cannot, for there are NO WORDS to even hint that v.27 has ANY bearing on never perishing.

So you'll no doubt just ignore my challenger here. v.27 is a description of what believers DO, not how to become a believer, or how to never perish.

More likely, v.27 is a policy statement. Are you aware of what a policy statement is?

As you are continually trying to prove Paul was still a sinner, he must then be "under the Law".

This is rather stunning. I don't have to prove anything. Paul himself SAID he was a sinner. In fact, read what he said about himself, to brother Tim.

1 Tim 1:15 - Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

The blue words refer to Jesus' mission. The red words, spoken in the PRESENT TENSE, is Paul's confession.

I know you try to twist all of Paul's present tense confessions and admissions as some sort of a historical present.

Well, I'll show you a real example of the historical present:

1 Tim 1: Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

You see, words mean things. And "once a blasphemer..." shows a PAST condition.

So, how do we know that Paul switched from a PAST condition to a PRESENT condition in v.15? Very easy. v.14 - The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

v.14 transitions Paul's PAST unsaved condition to PRESENT saved condition.

Therefore, v.15 is a statement of Paul's PRESENT saved condition. He admits he is a sinner.

So, according to you, he was an unbeliever.

Just scroll your eyeballs upward a bit and you'll see that your conclusion about my views are absolutely wrong. Paul stated 1 Tim 1:15 as a presently saved person.

I read this tonight..."The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29)
There is no mention of only removing the penalty for sin of the world.
He came and conquered sin, freeing us from service to sin.

This sounds as though Jesus' purpose was to make people sinless. Is that really your conclusion?

John the baptist was telling his disciples that Jesus was going to remove the penalty of sin.

Don't you understand that sin has a penalty that must be paid????

Rom 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The red words speak to the penalty of sin; which is death. Spiritual death. All humans are born separated from God, spiritually dead. They need to be reborn, to become spiritually alive.

But it seems you have no understanding of any of this.

No sinner will find his name in the book of life, as he is dead in trespasses and sins.

Wrong again. Jesus Christ paid the sin debt for everyone. And those who put their faith in Him receive forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43), are justified (Rom 5:1) are born again (John 3:3, 1 Pet 1:23), and given eternal life (John 10:28).

Until a person puts their faith in Christ for saving them, they are "still IN their sins", according to no less than Jesus Himself.

John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

I am sad that you do not understand the most basic facts of the Christian faith.

 

[Phil W]

Good question. Since He has 2 natures, one human and one divine, the answer is both "yes" and "noIn fact, the Romans had a saying to explain this
poci non pocari, non poci pocari. Translation:
Able not to sin, not able to sin
As I've repeatedly pointed out, the believer also has 2 natures, one human and one from God. We DO sin from our human nature, and we CAN'T sin from our new nature that was born of God.
The contradiction is your claim that you no longer have a human nature. You know, the one that SINS.
Your claim of not having a sin nature any more means your statement is irrelevant.
Without a sin nature? Why would you think that?
I don't really care what you might do. Your claim that you no longer have a sin nature is unbiblical.
So, it appears you think your lifestyle will determine whether you enter heave
But we already know that there is NOTHING that an separate us from the love of Christ. Aren't you familiar with Romans 8:35-39?
I said:
"Here is what He said about the subject of losing salvation:
John 10:28 - I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (believers) shall never perish."
Prove your claim, from the context. But I know that you cannot, for there are NO WORDS to even hint that v.27 has ANY bearing on never perishing.
So you'll no doubt just ignore my challenger here. v.27 is a description of what believers DO, not how to become a believer, or how to never perish.
More likely, v.27 is a policy statement. Are you aware of what a policy statement is?
This is rather stunning. I don't have to prove anything. Paul himself SAID he was a sinner. In fact, read what he said about himself, to brother Tim.
1 Tim 1:15 - Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
The blue words refer to Jesus' mission. The red words, spoken in the PRESENT TENSE, is Paul's confession.
I know you try to twist all of Paul's present tense confessions and admissions as some sort of a historical present.
Well, I'll show you a real example of the historical present:
1 Tim 1: Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
You see, words mean things. And "once a blasphemer..." shows a PAST condition.
So, how do we know that Paul switched from a PAST condition to a PRESENT condition in v.15? Very easy. v.14 - The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
v.14 transitions Paul's PAST unsaved condition to PRESENT saved condition.
Therefore, v.15 is a statement of Paul's PRESENT saved condition. He admits he is a sinner.
Just scroll your eyeballs upward a bit and you'll see that your conclusion about my views are absolutely wrong. Paul stated 1 Tim 1:15 as a presently saved person.
This sounds as though Jesus' purpose was to make people sinless. Is that really your conclusion?
John the baptist was telling his disciples that Jesus was going to remove the penalty of sin.
Don't you understand that sin has a penalty that must be paid????
Rom 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The red words speak to the penalty of sin; which is death. Spiritual death. All humans are born separated from God, spiritually dead. They need to be reborn, to become spiritually alive.
But it seems you have no understanding of any of this.
Wrong again. Jesus Christ paid the sin debt for everyone. And those who put their faith in Him receive forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43), are justified (Rom 5:1) are born again (John 3:3, 1 Pet 1:23), and given eternal life (John 10:28).
Until a person puts their faith in Christ for saving them, they are "still IN their sins", according to no less than Jesus Himself.
John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
I am sad that you do not understand the most basic facts of the Christian faith.

Does it concern you in the least that all your labors here are attempts to justify a life that accommodates sin?
You cling to an old nature like it is a life jacket.
You repeatedly deny a believer must be a follower of Jesus the good Shepherd.
Frankly, I think my happiest day on earth was when my old nature was killed, with the affections and lusts.

Mick J. once sang "You can't always get what you want", but I think you are getting exactly what you want...a life with sin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Does it concern you in the least that all your labors here are attempts to justify a life that accommodates sin?

Well, you are just confused, my friend. I haven't done that. I believe what Paul preached, taught, and said. But apparently you don't.

1 Tim 1:13-15 proves your theory wrong. Unbiblical. Why don't you try to explain those 3 verses (exegete) to prove your theory?

You cling to an old nature like it is a life jacket.

This is silly. No one holds on to a nature. It's something that can't be removed until death.

You repeatedly deny a believer must be a follower of Jesus the good Shepherd.

This is frankly a flat out lie. I CHALLENGE you to cite post #s and quote where I've ever said such a stupid thing.

Frankly, I think my happiest day on earth was when my old nature was killed, with the affections and lusts.

You may have been giddy, but you never lost your sin nature. Paul admitted that he was, as in present tense, the worst of sinners. His words, not my opinion.

But your posts indicate you think you are better than Paul. Smarter.

Mick J. once sang "You can't always get what you want", but I think you are getting exactly what you want...a life with sin.

Oh, that's good. Quote a pervert. Nice.

I quote Scripture. Scripture that you can't twist and pervert into something it doesn't say.

 

[Phil W]

Well, you are just confused, my friend. I haven't done that. I believe what Paul preached, taught, and said. But apparently you don't.

Here is what Paul reached...
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom.6:6-7)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)
" Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

You justify drawing back into perdition.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is what Paul reached...
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom.6:6-7)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)
" Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

You justify drawing back into perdition.

So, you are just going to ignore what Paul wrote about himself in his present condition in 1 Tim 1:15. Well, that's convenient. But hardly honest.

 

[Phil W]

So, you are just going to ignore what Paul wrote about himself in his present condition in 1 Tim 1:15. Well, that's convenient. But hardly honest.

Paul is the chief of those saved.
He considered himself the worst because he persecuted the church.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul is the chief of those saved.
He considered himself the worst because he persecuted the church.

It seems you just don't really want to get it.

1 Tim 1:13-16
13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

v.13 is a statement of Paul's FORMER LIFE as an unbeliever. That's WHEN he persecuted the church.

v.14 is a statement of Paul's conversion when he became a believer.

v.15 is a statement of Christ's purpose in coming into the world, and Paul's CURRENT status as a believer. Still a sinner.

v.16 is a statement of explanation of GRACE on God's part in saving Paul.

But you seem quite resistant in accepting these very clear words.

v.15 totally refutes your claims about no longer having a sinful nature. You are just KIDDING YOURSELF. It's called self deception.

 

[Phil W]

It seems you just don't really want to get it.

How can I "get it"?
It is pure lunacy to suppose that Paul is still walking in the flesh.
Paul taught us all how to kill the old man "with the affections and lusts".
He also taught us how to be reborn, "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life".
He showed us that "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
He exhorted us to "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."
He commanded us to "let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

The only way Paul could still be a sinner is if he didn't believe his own words.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How can I "get it"?

Great question. Open your eyes and ears.

It is pure lunacy to suppose that Paul is still walking in the flesh.

I didn't say he was. But he sure did admit that he was a sinner. He used the present tense to Timothy in 1 Tim 1:15. And I explained the 2 previous verses to show the transition from the past when he was unsaved to his present saved state.

Paul taught us all how to kill the old man "with the affections and lusts".

You just don't understand the metaphor. To "kill the old man" means to be IN fellowship and filled with the Spirit. That's how we don't sin. As I've been explaining all along.

He also taught us how to be reborn, "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life".

Seriously??!! Are you kidding? This verse doesn't say anything about how WE rebirth ourselves.

This is what the Bible says about our new birth:
John 1:12,13
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The red words refer to what God DOES; He is the One who gives us new birth.
The blue words are what humans do and DOESN'T give us new birth.
The purple words refer to the WAY humans are given new birth.

He showed us that "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
He exhorted us to "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."
He commanded us to "let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Not any of this supports your claims.

The only way Paul could still be a sinner is if he didn't believe his own words.

That would be your very own opinion. His words clearly refute your opinions.

He wrote it. And you obviously don't believe it, by your own admission.

Well, it's Scripture, so there you are. Not believing Scripture.

1 Tim 1:13-16
13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

The purple words are past tense, and reflect Paul's unsaved state.
The blue words reflect the transition to faith and salvation.
The red words are in the present tense. Which you don't believe.