Salvation Cannot be Lost

[Phil W]

I've already explained this verse. And you did not even try to refute it.

Your refutation is unbiblical.
God's seed cannot bring forth the works of the devil.

So what?

You say it does.

As I have repeatedly explained, God's seed CANNOT SIN. Why do you keep missing that point? The believer has a new nature that CANNOT SIN. However, the believer still has his human nature. Which is sinful. But you simply ignore/reject that. So I guess more explanation won't make any difference, huh.

Your explanation for why you continue to commit sin is against the words of 2 Cor 5:17, which says "old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
You can't bring along an old part of the ex-sinner now freed from the flesh, affections, and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

No, as long as you are IN fellowship, a concept that you haven't shown any familiarity with, and are filled with the Spirit, another concept that you haven't shown any familiarity with, then and only then will you NOT exhibit the works of the flesh.

Can the old nature be "filled with the Spirit"?

[However, when you are NOT in fellowship, and not filled with the Spirit, you ARE functioning from your human nature, and you will "exhibit the works of the flesh.[/QUOTE]
Which part of you will be judged on the last day?
Will the old part suffer for eternity while the reborn part goes to heaven?
I'ld hate to see the scripture that says that.

Paul even said as much, in Gal 5:16 - But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

So some days you illustrate the Savior on earth and other days you manifest the works of the devil?
The God I worship would never leave a man in such dire straits.
It is the Jewish, OT lifestyle!

But isn't your view that a believer no longer has a sinful nature. That the "old man" was killed off and no longer exists???

Absolutely.
If I were to commit sin, I would show that my repentance from sin was false. That my rebirth from the seed of God was false. That anything I did for the glory of God was self serving and false.
That is the partial man you resist crucifying with its affections and lusts.


OK, let's go with this. If this statement is true, then what you just said above CANNOT EVER occur.

So explain how you could "loose" that faith if you no longer have a sin nature.

I can't go against my new, divine nature.
I could only manifest that I had never had a divine nature.
My supposed salvation was by my own hands, and not God's hands.

OK, so you're your own savior, in your mind then.

Hardly, as it is all by God.
He has enabled me to make correct choices.
If you want to call that "being my own savior"... get over it.

OK, just another type of Calvinism's "true believer won't leave the faith".

I've never talked with Calvinists before so I don't know if they say they have been freed from sin.
But don't you agree with it?

Even though Jesus SAID they could, from His parable of the soils. Luke 8:13. And Paul's epistle to Timothy, in 1 Tim 4:1.

If they "seem to" depart, they were not reborn of a seed that cannot depart.
They can only manifest that they were never really reborn.
The proof?
They are bringing forth after a different kind of seed.

You're not making sense. Why would you need "protection" from anything if your rebirth was fake?
And how would "protection" help you if your rebirth was fake?
And, if your rebirth was real, there would be no need of protection.
These are the questions that you haven't answered, and CANNOT.

If my rebirth was fake, no amount of protective exhortation and warning could keep me free from sin.
I'ld be stuck defending false doctrines like you.
But I have been equipt to fend off false doctrines and temptations BY the exhortations and admonissions supplied by the grace of God.
My duty is to manifest my rebirth, and failure to do so would manifest that I was never reborn.
And the testing, trying of my faith never ends.

So, where is this "protection" then? If you never were reborn, how would "protection" help you?

It won't.

According to your theory then, Paul wasn't "really reborn of God", since he admitted that he was a sinner, and used the present tense. He NEVER even hinted that he no longer sinned, as you keep doing.

In the present tense he said he was the worst of those saved.
As for hints?
How about...
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom.6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

Everyone's actions and thoughts in this life will be examined.
Please just answer my questions, if you can.
From what I'm seeing, your theory is totally contradicted and unbiblical. Your answers will help revealing what is truth.

As you have decided to adopt a policy of conflicting natures, I can understand your reluctance to finally kill off the part that hates God and Godliness.
Rebirth and righteousness will be available for you, but only for so long.

It is written..."For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Rom 8:5-10)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your refutation is unbiblical.

And yet, you didn't even bother to try to refute it from Scripture. Your view has no defense at all.

God's seed cannot bring forth the works of the devil.

Seriously? I've already explained that sin does NOT come from God's seed. It comes from man's seed, the sinful nature.

You say it does.

I'm quoting the Bible.

Your explanation for why you continue to commit sin is against the words of 2 Cor 5:17, which says "old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

No it's not against 2 Cor 5:17. Does the verse say that the believer can no longer sin? No. Does any verse say that the believer will no longer sin? No again.

Again, you have no defense for your views.

You can't bring along an old part of the ex-sinner now freed from the flesh, affections, and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

There is no such thing as an ex-sinner as you keep claiming, since Paul himself described himself as a sinner in the present tense.

Can the old nature be "filled with the Spirit"?

As I've explained, it can't. It's the regenerated spirit that can be filled with the Spirit.

Unless you remove your extremely biases spectacles, you're not going to understand anything I post.

I said:
"However, when you are NOT in fellowship, and not filled with the Spirit, you ARE functioning from your human nature, and you will "exhibit the works of the flesh."

Which part of you will be judged on the last day?

My works part. This isn't anatomical. Words, deeds, actions, thoughts, words.

Will the old part suffer for eternity while the reborn part goes to heaven?

Nope. The sin nature stays with the body, in the grave.

I'ld hate to see the scripture that says that.

Do you hate Scripture?

So some days you illustrate the Savior on earth and other days you manifest the works of the devil?

All sin is a manifestation of the devil.

The God I worship would never leave a man in such dire straits.
It is the Jewish, OT lifestyle!

The NT refutes your opinion.

If I were to commit sin, I would show that my repentance from sin was false.

That's only your opinion from a lot of false teaching. Sin comes from the nature that sins.

I can't go against my new, divine nature.

The Bible says otherwise. Gal 5:16,17 clearly refutes your ideas.

He has enabled me to make correct choices.

Yes, 2 Pet 1:3. However, you deny the reality that we are commanded to be filled with the Spirit, to NOT grieve or quench the Spirit. All that proves an ability to do it.

And it's directed at saved people.

If you want to call that "being my own savior"... get over it.

That's exactly what your view leads to. Instead of getting over false doctrine, I simply refute it with Scripture.

If my rebirth was fake, no amount of protective exhortation and warning could keep me free from sin.

Why don't you see how contradictory your view is?

If you were literally freed from any sin commission, none of the commands and warnings about sin would need to be made. And none of the commands and warnings would have any effect on unsaved people.

So you are stuck in a pickle.

I'ld be stuck defending false doctrines like you.

No, stuck in a pickle.

But I have been equipt to fend off false doctrines and temptations BY the exhortations and admonissions supplied by the grace of God.

I've agreed with this. But you've taken it way too far and claim you no longer sin, and that all true believers no longer sin. And again, all the commands and warning against sin are FOR believers. There's that pickle again.

My duty is to manifest my rebirth, and failure to do so would manifest that I was never reborn.

No, it means you got out of fellowship, and have grieved/quenched the Spirit, and need to confess your sins.

And all your dismissal and rejection of the truth of Scripture IS sin.

And the testing, trying of my faith never ends.

If true believers cannot sin, there is NO NEED of any testing or trying. So again, there's that pickle.

In the present tense he said he was the worst of those saved.

What a twist of Scripture. In the present tense, he was saying that he IS the worst of sinners.

As for hints?
How about...
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom.6:6-7)

Why would God command ANY unable to sin believer "that we should not serve sin"?

You just don't get it, though. If a true believer cannot sin, being told they they "should not serve sin" is meaningless, because such a one CANNOT serve sin.

But you just keep failing to grasp that.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Rom 8:1)

This speaks of being indwelt with the Spirit. And that believers are NOT under condemnation.

But you believe that sin will re-condemn the person.

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

Why the shame. They shouldn't be sinning. And the command to "sin not" would be irrelevant to a person that has no sin nature and cannot sin.

Why can't you understand this?

As you have decided to adopt a policy of conflicting natures, I can understand your reluctance to finally kill off the part that hates God and Godliness.

Nonsense. I've adopted only what the Bible teaches and I've shared with you.

Rebirth and righteousness will be available for you, but only for so long.

I have already been reborn.

 

[Phil W]

And yet, you didn't even bother to try to refute it from Scripture. Your view has no defense at all.

If you couldn't understand it the first five times it is pointless to try again.

Seriously? I've already explained that sin does NOT come from God's seed. It comes from man's seed, the sinful nature.

It must be tough running around with two natures, being born of God and the devil at the same time.
Thankfully, I see the error in such error.

I'm quoting the Bible.
No it's not against 2 Cor 5:17. Does the verse say that the believer can no longer sin? No. Does any verse say that the believer will no longer sin? No again.

It says the old has been left behind and ALL THINGS including nature are made new.

There is no such thing as an ex-sinner as you keep claiming, since Paul himself described himself as a sinner in the present tense.

Then there is no such thing as repentance from sin and Jesus died for nothing except the sacrificial animals.

I said:
"However, when you are NOT in fellowship, and not filled with the Spirit, you ARE functioning from your human nature, and you will "exhibit the works of the flesh."

If your flesh is still exerting power, you don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Rom 8:9-10)
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
Your body isn't dead if it has power over you.

My works part. This isn't anatomical. Words, deeds, actions, thoughts, words.
Nope. The sin nature stays with the body, in the grave.
Do you hate Scripture?[/QUOTE]
No, do you?

All sin is a manifestation of the devil.

All sinners manifest that they are the children of the devil. (1 John 3:10)
Thankfully, we have been enabled to kill that old man and be reborn of God's seed which cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.
(Unless you are not reborn of God's seed)

 

[Phil W]

Deleted post

 

[Phil W]

And yet, you didn't even bother to try to refute it from Scripture. Your view has no defense at all.

If you couldn't understand it the first five times it is pointless to try again.

Seriously? I've already explained that sin does NOT come from God's seed. It comes from man's seed, the sinful nature.

It must be tough running around with two natures, being born of God and the devil at the same time.
Thankfully, I see the error in such false doctrine.

I'm quoting the Bible.
No it's not against 2 Cor 5:17. Does the verse say that the believer can no longer sin? No. Does any verse say that the believer will no longer sin? No again.

2 Cor 5:17 says the old has been left behind and ALL THINGS (including nature) are made new.

There is no such thing as an ex-sinner as you keep claiming, since Paul himself described himself as a sinner in the present tense.

Then there is no such thing as repentance from sin and Jesus died for nothing except the sacrificial animals.

I said:
"However, when you are NOT in fellowship, and not filled with the Spirit, you ARE functioning from your human nature, and you will "exhibit the works of the flesh."

If your flesh is still exerting power, you don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Rom 8:9-10)
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
Your body isn't dead if it has power over you.

My works part. This isn't anatomical. Words, deeds, actions, thoughts, words.
Nope. The sin nature stays with the body, in the grave.
Do you hate Scripture?

No, do you?

All sin is a manifestation of the devil.

All sinners manifest that they are the children of the devil. (1 John 3:10)
Thankfully, we have been enabled to kill that old man and be reborn of God's seed which cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.
(Unless you are not reborn of God's seed)

 

[Phil W]

Deleted post
I'm having computer problems...sorry.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"And yet, you didn't even bother to try to refute it from Scripture. Your view has no defense at all."

If you couldn't understand it the first five times it is pointless to try again.

Maybe you just thought you did. But you didn't.

It must be tough running around with two natures, being born of God and the devil at the same time.

Well, half right and half wrong. Yes, it is tough having 2 conflicting natures, and Paul said so, clearly. But the Bible NEVER describes the sinful human nature as being "born of the devil". Do you just like making stuff up?

Thankfully, I see the error in such error.

I wish you could see the error in your theory.

It says the old has been left behind and ALL THINGS including nature are made new.

I've explained it. If you couldn't understand it the first five times it is pointless to try again.

If your flesh is still exerting power, you don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Rom 8:9-10)
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
Your body isn't dead if it has power over you.

You just fail to understand what the Bible says. The flesh has no power when the believer follows Rom 6:16 - Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

This verse has no relevance to the believer in your theory.

Do you hate Scripture?
No, do you?

You just answered your own question.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you couldn't understand it the first five times it is pointless to try again.

You really like saying this, don'tcha.

It must be tough running around with two natures, being born of God and the devil at the same time.
Thankfully, I see the error in such false doctrine.

I have just explained your error in your statement.

Rom 7:18 - For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Paul was NOT speaking in your "historical present tense", but in fact, the present tense. Anyone familiar with English would agree that Paul was speaking currently.

20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Again, he was writing in the present tense.

How could v.18 reflect his prior state of being unsaved regarding his "desire to do good"??
How could v.20 reflect his prior state of being unsaved??
How could v.21 reflect his prior state of being unsaved regarding wanting to do good?
How could v.22 reflect his prior state of being unsaved regarding delighting in God's law??
v.23 PROVES the conflict and struggle with 2 natures, by the words "another law". He was describing the "law of the flesh" which produces sin, what he doesn't want to do, and the "law of the Spirit", whih produces the "good he wants to do".

The deliverance Paul speaks of in v.24 is about the fact that believers have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"And yet, you didn't even bother to try to refute it from Scripture. Your view has no defense at all."

Maybe you just thought you did. But you didn't.


Well, half right and half wrong. Yes, it is tough having 2 conflicting natures, and Paul said so, clearly. But the Bible NEVER describes the sinful human nature as being "born of the devil". Do you just like making stuff up?


I wish you could see the error in your theory.


I've explained it. If you couldn't understand it the first five times it is pointless to try again.


You just fail to understand what the Bible says. The flesh has no power when the believer follows Rom 6:16 - Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

This verse has no relevance to the believer in your theory
You just answered your own question.

What scriptures do you use to validate the idea of part of you not being reborn?
How did you come to the conclusion that you have two natures?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"And yet, you didn't even bother to try to refute it from Scripture. Your view has no defense at all."

What scriptures do you use to validate the idea of part of you not being reborn?

Instead of even trying to address my questions, you dodge by asking more questions, trying to change the subject.

I'll repeat my comments in my last post. Would you please answer my questions?

Rom 7:18 - For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Paul was NOT speaking in your "historical present tense", but in fact, the present tense. Anyone familiar with English would agree that Paul was speaking currently.

20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Again, he was writing in the present tense.

How could v.18 reflect his prior state of being unsaved regarding his "desire to do good"??
How could v.20 reflect his prior state of being unsaved??
How could v.21 reflect his prior state of being unsaved regarding wanting to do good?
How could v.22 reflect his prior state of being unsaved regarding delighting in God's law??
v.23 PROVES the conflict and struggle with 2 natures, by the words "another law". He was describing the "law of the flesh" which produces sin, what he doesn't want to do, and the "law of the Spirit", whih produces the "good he wants to do".

The deliverance Paul speaks of in v.24 is about the fact that believers have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

How did you come to the conclusion that you have two natures?

It's quite clear from Paul's thorough theological writing that believers continue to struggle with their sin natures, and the Bible plainly states that we have a born again nature. Kinda like 2 + 2 = 4.

I do hope you'll answer my questions. Doing so will help me better understand how you think and why you think the way you do. If it's reasonable and logical, and aligns with Scripture, then you'd be right. But so far, I haven't seen anything reasonable and logical, or aligns with Scripture. Just some verses given and a very biased viewpoint applied to them.

If you an answer my questions reasonably, you may have a point.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"And yet, you didn't even bother to try to refute it from Scripture. Your view has no defense at all."
Instead of even trying to address my questions, you dodge by asking more questions, trying to change the subject.
I'll repeat my comments in my last post. Would you please answer my questions?
Rom 7:18 - For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Your version of scripture says "nature", while the KJV says "flesh".
Paul's, and my "flesh"...or natures if you see it that way... were crucified and buried with Christ in Romans 6:3-6.
The outcome of our deaths is spelled out in verse 7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Those now crucified, buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life are free of what your doctrine ensnares you with.
Sin, old fleshly natures, the flesh, the Law, unremorseful repentance, oldness of life, and condemnation.

Paul was NOT speaking in your "historical present tense", but in fact, the present tense. Anyone familiar with English would agree that Paul was speaking currently.
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8:2 says we "are freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus": indicating the verses you can't interpret perfectly are in the past.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your version of scripture says "nature", while the KJV says "flesh".

It can be named by different words.

Paul's, and my "flesh"...or natures if you see it that way... were crucified and buried with Christ in Romans 6:3-6.
The outcome of our deaths is spelled out in verse 7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Why do you simply reject, without reason, that we are free from the penalty of sin?

I just figured it out!! You don't believe that anyone is ever freed from the penalty of sin. That's why you cling so hard to your opinion that you are sinless.

Romans 8:2 says we "are freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus": indicating the verses you can't interpret perfectly are in the past.

How about that! The black words prove my point. Being "freed from the law of sin" is synonymous to being "freed from the penalty of sin".

Doesn't the LAW include a PENALTY? Of course it does. When a law is broken, a penalty is given.

So, being "freed from the law of sin" is to be freed from the penalty of sin.

However, you continue to ignore my questions. I wonder why?

Here they are again that I'd like you to answer, so I can better evaluate your position.

I'll repeat my comments in my last post. Would you please answer my questions?

Rom 7:18 - For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Paul was NOT speaking in your "historical present tense", but in fact, the present tense. Anyone familiar with English would agree that Paul was speaking currently.

20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Again, he was writing in the present tense.

How could v.18 reflect his prior state of being unsaved regarding his "desire to do good"??
How could v.20 reflect his prior state of being unsaved??
How could v.21 reflect his prior state of being unsaved regarding wanting to do good?
How could v.22 reflect his prior state of being unsaved regarding delighting in God's law??
v.23 PROVES the conflict and struggle with 2 natures, by the words "another law". He was describing the "law of the flesh" which produces sin, what he doesn't want to do, and the "law of the Spirit", whih produces the "good he wants to do".

The deliverance Paul speaks of in v.24 is about the fact that believers have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
---------------------------------------------

There. I've explained each verse (exegesis). Can you do the same, to show me where and how I'm off track?

 

[Phil W]

It can be named by different words.
Why do you simply reject, without reason, that we are free from the penalty of sin?

Because I have been freed from more than the penalty of sin.
I have been freed FROM sin/sinning.

I just figured it out!! You don't believe that anyone is ever freed from the penalty of sin. That's why you cling so hard to your opinion that you are sinless.

If one is sinless, they are also free from the penalty for past sins.
It is written..."For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 6:23)
My death occurred when I was crucified with Christ at my baptism into His death. (Rom 6:6)
I was paid the wage of my past sins.
Paul writes..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; (death Rom 6:23), and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
My experience corresponds to Paul's writings.
It also corresponds to the outcome of his writings concerning my death in Christ..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

How about that! The black words prove my point. Being "freed from the law of sin" is synonymous to being "freed from the penalty of sin".

Only to you, who seemingly wants to continue to commit sin.

Doesn't the LAW include a PENALTY? Of course it does. When a law is broken, a penalty is given.

Don't do the crime, and there will be no penalty...by the grace of God.

However, you continue to ignore my questions. I wonder why?

Better reread my last post.

I'll repeat my comments in my last post. Would you please answer my questions?

Rom 7:18 - For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

How could v.18 reflect his prior state of being unsaved regarding his "desire to do good"??[/QUOTE]
It was his state of mind during his narrated remembrance of his past under the Law.

How could v.20 reflect his prior state of being unsaved??

While sin was "living in him", he was unsaved.

How could v.21 reflect his prior state of being unsaved regarding wanting to do good?

Because the law of sin and death was still in him.

How could v.22 reflect his prior state of being unsaved regarding delighting in God's law??

Paul wants what the Law cannot deliver in his previous life.

v.23 PROVES the conflict and struggle with 2 natures, by the words "another law". He was describing the "law of the flesh" which produces sin, what he doesn't want to do, and the "law of the Spirit", whih produces the "good he wants to do".

As I pointed out in my last post, Rom 8:2 tells us that he has been freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
The law of sin and death is no longer a facet of Paul's reborn life.

The deliverance Paul speaks of in v.24 is about the fact that believers have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I don't know where you got that idea from..."24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
His answer has already been covered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
The "body of this death" in Rom 7:24 is "the body of sin" from Rom 6:6.

"Old things are passed away, behold; all things are made new." (2 Cor 5:17)

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
It can be named by different words.
Why do you simply reject, without reason, that we are free from the penalty of sin?

Because I have been freed from more than the penalty of sin.
I have been freed FROM sin/sinning.

You just think that. If you "have been" freed from sinning, then the Bible would have clearly stated that idea.

Yet, this is what the Bible does say clearly:

1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

John used "we" and "us", in the FIRST PERSON, plural. He was including himself. So don't bother telling me that John was directing his epistle to any unbeliever who still sins.

v.8 refutes you as clear as possible. You claim to be "without sin". The Bible says that those who claim this have deceived themselves and have NO TRUTH in them.

You are truthless, according to the Bible. All you've done is twist the clear verses I've shared in trying to escape the condemnation they bring on your ideas.

I was paid the wage of my past sins.

What was the check written for, then?

Only to you, who seemingly wants to continue to commit sin.

Your conclusion here is mindless and preposterous. I know the Bible and I know that the Bible charges you with being self deceived and having NO TRUTH in you.

Don't do the crime, and there will be no penalty...by the grace of God.

All my sins were forgiven by faith in Christ. However, my on-going sins are forgiven and I am cleansed by confession of them, according to 1 John 1:9.

Better reread my last post.

Why? The Bible says you are self deceived and have NO TRUTH in you?

I said this:
I'll repeat my comments in my last post. Would you please answer my questions?

Rom 7:18 - For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

How could v.18 reflect his prior state of being unsaved regarding his "desire to do good"??

You replied, partially:
[QUOTE[]It was his state of mind during his narrated remembrance of his past under the Law.[/QUOTE]
Oh, no. Not that tired old saw! Any English teacher would grade your understanding as an F for failure to see that Paul was speaking in the present tense, and not the historical present.

While sin was "living in him", he was unsaved.

Just read 1 John 1:8 again and again and again. It applies directly to you.

"Old things are passed away, behold; all things are made new." (2 Cor 5:17)

The Bible describes those who claim they are "without sin" to be self deceived and having NO TRUTH in them.

Even Satan quotes Scripture. So what?

ps: I'm in NO WAY claiming that you are demon possessed. My point is that EVEN those with NO TRUTH in them can quote Scripture, as Scripture says about those who claim they are "without sin", as you claim.

 

[Phil W]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
It can be named by different words.
Why do you simply reject, without reason, that we are free from the penalty of sin?

You just think that. If you "have been" freed from sinning, then the Bible would have clearly stated that idea.

The bible has, in many places; including these...
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.“ (John 8:32-36)


“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)

"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2)

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1 Peter 2:21-22)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

So, you can clearly see that life without sin is not only commanded by Jesus, but exhorted by the divinely inspired writers of the letters to the church.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The bible has, in many places; including these...
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)

I've covered this and you are not paying attention. I've explained the Greek word.

I've address many, if not most, of the verses you just quoted, yet you NEVER address any of the verses I just quoted for you.

The point is that you cannot explain Rom 7:18-24. And they refute your ideas.

 

[Phil W]

I've covered this and you are not paying attention. I've explained the Greek word.

I've address many, if not most, of the verses you just quoted, yet you NEVER address any of the verses I just quoted for you.

The point is that you cannot explain Rom 7:18-24. And they refute your ideas.

When I think about what your knowledge has provided you and what my knowledge has provided me, I think you got ripped off.

 

[FreeGrace2]

When I think about what your knowledge has provided you and what my knowledge has provided me, I think you got ripped off.

Said the poster who claims he is "without sin" and the Bible describes as self deceived and has NO TRUTH in him.

What you can't get around is that John used the FIRST PERSON plural pronoun ("we" and "us"). He was including himself.

1 John 1:8 - If we (you believers and me) claim to be without sin, we (you believers and me) deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (you believers and me).

Yet, nothing about losing salvation.

Yet, you claim to be "without sin". Not even the beloved disciple whom Jesus loved would ever think to do that.

What John wasn't, was self deceived. And he was full of the truth.

 

[Phil W]

Said the poster who claims he is "without sin" and the Bible describes as self deceived and has NO TRUTH in him.

What you can't get around is that John used the FIRST PERSON plural pronoun ("we" and "us"). He was including himself.

1 John 1:8 - If we (you believers and me) claim to be without sin, we (you believers and me) deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (you believers and me).

Yet, nothing about losing salvation.

Yet, you claim to be "without sin". Not even the beloved disciple whom Jesus loved would ever think to do that.

What John wasn't, was self deceived. And he was full of the truth.

Jesus said..."Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)
Jesus said..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." (Matt 6:24)
Those serving sin hate God.

Thankfully, God has made a way to be free of sin.
It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
How is it we can "suffer with Christ"?
It is written..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:6-7)
How do we get "crucified with Him"?
It is written..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. (Rom 6:3-5)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus said..."Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)
Jesus said..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." (Matt 6:24)
Those serving sin hate God.

Thankfully, God has made a way to be free of sin.
It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
How is it we can "suffer with Christ"?
It is written..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:6-7)
How do we get "crucified with Him"?
It is written..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. (Rom 6:3-5)

You are totally without excuse.

I've proven from Scripture that even writers of Scripture STILL sin and DON'T claim that they are "without sin", as you keep doing.

Rom 7:18-24, 1 Tim 1:13-15 and 1 John 1:8 all refute your unbiblical claims. So you just ignore them.

But know this: those who claim to be "without sin" are described in the Bible as being self deceived and having NO TRUTH in them.

Not even the disciple whom the Lord loved (John 21:20) wouldn't make such a claim.
Rather, he was the one who wrote 1 John 1:8.

You have been revealed as to who you really are.