Salvation Cannot be Lost

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The words "when you believed" could just as well be stated as "BACK WHEN you believed". Means the same thing."

The height of absurdity.

You're fee to disagree with anything you want. But, in order to be taken seriously, you do need to back up your opinions with evidence.

So, prove that the word "when you believed" can't mean "back when you believed".

Show this thread the supposed difference between the 2.

Hebrews 3:12 ESV /
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

So? I don't see any words about losing salvation.

Did the prodigal son fall away from his father? You betcha he did. Did he remain a son the whole time he was in a far country? You betcha he was.

Even when he confessed his sin and repented, and was prepared to ask for a demotion from 'son' to 'servant', his father interrupted him.

And his father described his son as both 'dead' and 'lost'. Yet, the son was very much alive, all the while living a wildly in a far country. Including in the pig sty. But, fellowship with his father WAS dead and lost.

But when he confessed and repented, his fellowship with his father was RESTORED.

That's the take away from the parable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And I profess that those who believe in Him will never disobey Him.

If that were true, please explain WHY the Bible has so many commands to obey Him.

The very fact of all the commands for obedience proves your profession to be wrong.

 

[renniks]

he word "cowardly" doesn't refer to someone who is simply timid. No, a coward LACKS FAITH. And the second word is "faithless".

So, v.8 is a description of those who never believed, and where they will end up.

Lol, that is some seriously imaginative reasoning. It also says nothing about whether the person had faith previously or not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Calm down buddy, that’s what the thread title is about.

No it isn't. It's about the fact that salvation cannot be lost. Or didn't you read the title?

Yes I keep His commandments.
If I do sin, then I confess my sin and forgiven.

And you don't actually see the contradiction in these 2 statements??!!

If you DO "keep His commandments", then you aren't sinning.

And if you "do sin", then you aren't keeping His commandments.

Do you think you can do both at the same time?

I have learned to live according to the Spirit, whereby I invest my time towards the Spirit, rather than the flesh.

That's very nice, but you have just confessed that WHEN you do sin, you confess your sin. So, when you ARE sinning, you CANNOT be living according to the Spirit.

Thanks for making my point.

 

[renniks]

Where did I ever say such a stupid thing? I never did

I said: So according to your doctrine, a Christian who becomes an atheist or Satanist and opposes the gospel, still gets a free ride to Glory?

You said: "Do you understand anything about grace? Seems not so much.

The "free ride" to Glory is based solely on the work of Christ. Those who believe in Him are given eternal life and shall never perish.

And this receiving of eternal life occurs WHEN a person believes.

Your problem begins with a failure to grasp grace."

So, again, according to you, a former Christian who is now an atheist or Satanist who opposes the gospel, in other words, false teachers- who are called in 1 John 1:18, antiChrists, can be Christians, because they once believed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"You've got to deal honestly with v.19 - 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again."

You also have to deal honestly with this verse:
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

So, what do you think I've been avoiding or missing about Mark 13:30?

This is how biblehub.com lexicon translates "generation": race, family, generation

It's an obvious reference to the human race. iow, the human race will at some future point in time will cease to propagate, since there will be no marriage or children in heaven. So again, an obvious reference to the end time event called the Great Tribulation.

And Jesus also prophesied the destruction of the temple in 90 AD in the same chapter.

Check your history. The temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

btw, aren't you aware that Israel will build another temple which the antichrist will enter and announce that Israel will worship him?

Doesn't it seem a little unlikely that he would go on to warn them about something that wasn't going to happen for 2000 plus years?

It makes perfect sense since that was exactly what His disciples were asking about;
4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many.
7When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

Do you want to argue that "the end" only refers to Antiochus? Seriously, that isn't even close. "The end" obviously refers to the end of time, when Jesus returns to earth and rules the earth literally for 1,000 years, and then the eternal state.

But, the persecution of the early church started in the same generation.

No, "generation" speaks to the human race. Not 20 years of time, which is a 'generation'.

Your math needs remediation. Jesus died around 33 AD. If He was referring to Antiochus, it was more than a generation.

But if that's your best defense, it's quite weak.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lol, that is some seriously imaginative reasoning. It also says nothing about whether the person had faith previously or not.

What's your point?

Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 tell us in plain words who will be condemned: "those who have not believed".

Can you, with a straight face, actually say that someone who used to believe can be described as one who never believed?

 

[Daniel C]

If I do sin, . . .



JLB

Well thanks for confessing . At least I don't have to call you a liar. I don't want to have to do that so I appreciate the honesty.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said: So according to your doctrine, a Christian who becomes an atheist or Satanist and opposes the gospel, still gets a free ride to Glory?

As I noted before, it is clear that you have no grasp of grace.

Do you think you are earning your "ride to Glory"? No, you aren't. You can't. Christ paid the debt for you. So your own entrance into heaven is a "free ride" if you placed your trust in Christ for salvation, without any other strings attached.

You said: "Do you understand anything about grace? Seems not so much.

The "free ride" to Glory is based solely on the work of Christ. Those who believe in Him are given eternal life and shall never perish.

Well, there you go. If a person has placed their faith in the work of Christ, He gives them eternal life. And, ON THAT BASIS ALONE, shall never perish.

So, whatever happens after they believed and were given eternal life DOES NOT CHANGE THE EQUATION. Why would you think it would?

Maybe you just think is SHOULD, and you don't like God's promises.

I also said:
"And this receiving of eternal life occurs WHEN a person believes
Your problem begins with a failure to grasp grace."

So, again, according to you, a former Christian who is now an atheist or Satanist who opposes the gospel, in other words, false teachers- who are called in 1 John 1:18, antiChrists, can be Christians, because they once believed.

It seems your core problem is your distaste with what "might" happen to someone who believes and then goes south.

If salvation could be lost, I have no doubt that God would have made sure there would be at least 1 verse that very clearly, in plain language, says so.

Do you know what "plain language" means?

 

[renniks]

Your math needs remediation. Jesus died around 33 AD. If He was referring to Antiochus, it was more than a generation.

But if that's your best defense, it's quite weak.

I said that persecution started the same generation, pay attention. And the weird interpretation of" generation you are using is what is weak.

 

[renniks]

What's your point?

Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 tell us in plain words who will be condemned: "those who have not believed".

Can you, with a straight face, actually say that someone who used to believe can be described as one who never believed?

There you go again, jumping to other verses, because the revelation verse clearly says that those without faith are going in the fire. No qualifiers. And changing have not believed to never believed for no reason other than you like it better.

 

[renniks]

As I noted before, it is clear that you have no grasp of grace.

Do you think you are earning your "ride to Glory"? No, you aren't. You can't. Christ paid the debt for you. So your own entrance into heaven is a "free ride" if you placed your trust in Christ for salvation, without any other strings attached.


Well, there you go. If a person has placed their faith in the work of Christ, He gives them eternal life. And, ON THAT BASIS ALONE, shall never perish.

So, whatever happens after they believed and were given eternal life DOES NOT CHANGE THE EQUATION. Why would you think it would?

Maybe you just think is SHOULD, and you don't like God's promises.

I also said:
"And this receiving of eternal life occurs WHEN a person believes
Your problem begins with a failure to grasp grace."


It seems your core problem is your distaste with what "might" happen to someone who believes and then goes south.

If salvation could be lost, I have no doubt that God would have made sure there would be at least 1 verse that very clearly, in plain language, says so.

Do you know what "plain language" means?

You never answered. Can an atheist and/ or false teacher be saved?

I'm not earning a ride to Glory, because belief should not earn me anything... but it is a condition God has set for salvation. Why? I don't know, but it's clearly spelled out that without faith no one will please God.
"Without faith no one can please God. Anyone who comes to God must believe that he is real and that he rewards those who truly want to find him."

 

[JLB777]

That's very nice, but you have just confessed that WHEN you do sin, you confess your sin. So, when you ARE sinning, you CANNOT be living according to the Spirit.

You err not knowing the scriptures.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:7-10

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
• If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Please explain to us the difference between “sinning”, which is also called practicing the works of the flesh, and a sin.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

Well thanks for confessing . At least I don't have to call you a liar. I don't want to have to do that so I appreciate the honesty.

If you remain in Christ you continue to have eternal life, which is only found in Christ.


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



You would know this, if you continue in His word.


Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32


The deception of false man made doctrine has you blinded to the truth.


Born again Christians who live in disobedience to Christ, will perish in eternal damnation.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1



Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

We are called to invest our lives towards the Spirit, and the things of righteousness, and not the corrupting influence of the world.



Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life

If you desire to inherit eternal life, then sow, invest your time and effort towards the things of the Spirit, to live according to the Spirit, rather than the sinful desires of the flesh.





JLB

 

[renniks]

As I noted before, it is clear that you have no grasp of grace.

Do you think you are earning your "ride to Glory"? No, you aren't. You can't. Christ paid the debt for you. So your own entrance into heaven is a "free ride" if you placed your trust in Christ for salvation, without any other strings attached.


Well, there you go. If a person has placed their faith in the work of Christ, He gives them eternal life. And, ON THAT BASIS ALONE, shall never perish.

So, whatever happens after they believed and were given eternal life DOES NOT CHANGE THE EQUATION. Why would you think it would?

Maybe you just think is SHOULD, and you don't like God's promises.

I also said:
"And this receiving of eternal life occurs WHEN a person believes
Your problem begins with a failure to grasp grace."


It seems your core problem is your distaste with what "might" happen to someone who believes and then goes south.

If salvation could be lost, I have no doubt that God would have made sure there would be at least 1 verse that very clearly, in plain language, says so.

Do you know what "plain language" means?

BTW, I find it very strange that I constantly get accused of some sort of works salvation on this thread. I'm relying on grace and grace alone for salvation. I have a different view of sin then some here, apparently. I believe I sin every day, even if I'm not aware of what sins I committed that day. But even relying on Grace is an active condition for salvation. It's believing in what I cannot often see. How can believing faith is necessary, be misconstrued as not understanding Grace? Rather, it's taking what scripture says to heart.
"And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ."

The one who does not know him does not possess eternal life.

 

[Phil W]

Let's be clear, is that what you are claiming, to never sin?
You never sin?
You never sin by breaking any of Gods laws?
Just give me a yes or no. Thanks.

My repentance from sin was real.
By the grace of God I no longer commit sin.
I am a believer...in things like Rom 6:7 and 1 Peter 4:1.
I walk in the light.

 

[Phil W]

If that were true, please explain WHY the Bible has so many commands to obey Him.

So we will obey Him.
Unfortunately, the exhortations don't work on unbelievers.
The readers of the bible aren't all believers.

The very fact of all the commands for obedience proves your profession to be wrong.

What it proves is that they weren't ignored by all men.
Just unbelievers.

 

[Daniel C]

My repentance from sin was real.
By the grace of God I no longer commit sin.
I am a believer...in things like Rom 6:7 and 1 Peter 4:1.
I walk in the light.

Liar.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said that persecution started the same generation, pay attention. And the weird interpretation of" generation you are using is what is weak.

Whatever. The point of the verse about "enduring to the end" isn't about working for salvation, in any sense. That silly notion is refuted throughout the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There you go again, jumping to other verses, because the revelation verse clearly says that those without faith are going in the fire. No qualifiers.

Why, then, did Jesus give NO QUALIFIERS about recipients of eternal life shall never perish? But, of course, you cannot answer that.

And changing have not believed to never believed for no reason other than you like it better.

For no reason?? Are you kidding? I'm just pointing out the obvious.

And you didn't answer my question.

"Can you, with a straight face, actually say that someone who used to believe can be described as one who never believed?"

Why won't you answer this question?

Because it's just like my question, "Can a recipient of eternal life perish?"

Both questions have answers that refute your theories.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You never answered. Can an atheist and/ or false teacher be saved?

Anyone can be saved. That's a silly question.

John 1;29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

All that's required is that they place their full faith in the work of Christ who died for them.

I'm not earning a ride to Glory, because belief should not earn me anything... but it is a condition God has set for salvation. Why? I don't know, but it's clearly spelled out that without faith no one will please God.

Then just stop the silly phrase "ride to Glory". It cheapens salvation.

"Without faith no one can please God. Anyone who comes to God must believe that he is real and that he rewards those who truly want to find him."

Amen! But you keep ignoring (rejecting?) Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19 about grieving and quenching the Spirit.

Do you think a believer who grieves or quenches the Spirit pleases God?