Salvation Cannot be Lost

[FreeGrace2]

You err not knowing the scriptures.

lol. Your view leads to the conclusion that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

Yet, Jesus said in the CLEAREST OF WORDS that they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Do you comprehend the difference between CAN and SHALL NEVER? Seems you don't.

Jesus said SHALL NEVER PERISH.

You say CAN PERISH.

I believe Jesus. Unlike yourself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"If that were true, please explain WHY the Bible has so many commands to obey Him."

So we will obey Him.

Thanks for keep making my point.

The commands don't make us obey Him. They are to be obeyed. Where does that come from? Our CHOICE. Real true believers CAN and Do sin. But you seem to claim they don't, if they are real true believers.

Unfortunately, the exhortations don't work on unbelievers.

Unfortunately, you erroneously assume exhortation work on all believers. They don't.

The readers of the bible aren't all believers.

I'm not talking about who reads the Bible. The epistles were written to believers.

But your statement reveals more error. Why would Paul or any other biblical writer give commands to unbelievers, other than the command to believe on the Lord Jesus anyway?

What good would it do the unbeliever?

What it proves is that they weren't ignored by all men.
Just unbelievers.

All you're proving is how naive your view is.

Commands are given to those who CAN and SHOULD obey them.

 

[JLB777]

lol. Your view leads to the conclusion that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

Yet, Jesus said in the CLEAREST OF WORDS that they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Do you comprehend the difference between CAN and SHALL NEVER? Seems you don't.

Jesus said SHALL NEVER PERISH.

You say CAN PERISH.

I believe Jesus. Unlike yourself.

Jesus’ words are clear.


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29



JLB

 

[JLB777]

lol. Your view leads to the conclusion that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

Yet, Jesus said in the CLEAREST OF WORDS that they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Do you comprehend the difference between CAN and SHALL NEVER? Seems you don't.

Jesus said SHALL NEVER PERISH.

You say CAN PERISH.

I believe Jesus. Unlike yourself.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


The result of following Christ, because we hear and obey His Voice is to receive eternal life, as an end result of our faith.


IOW those who hear and follow, will receive eternal life.


Otherwise, folks who hear for a while then follow some other messiah, such as the antichrist are still recipients of eternal life as well.


Hopefully you can see the context.



JLB

 

[renniks]

"Can you, with a straight face, actually say that someone who used to believe can be described as one who never believed?"

Never believed and have not believed are not the same at all. I have not eaten cucumbers today. That does mean I have never eaten cucumbers. To say I have not done something, one would have to specify whether I have not done if for a year or a month or a moment, or whether I have not done it at all, ever.
I could say "I have not believed in Santa for twenty years." Without specifying a time period, "have not believed" is not the same as "never beleived"

 

[renniks]

Anyone can be saved. That's a silly question

A non believer can not be saved and a non believer at the same time. The faithless will not enter. Period.

 

[renniks]

Amen! But you keep ignoring (rejecting?) Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19 about grieving and quenching the Spirit.

Do you think a believer who grieves or quenches the Spirit pleases God?

It is not God's will for us to quench the Spirit, but in reality, none of us ever fully reach perfection in this lifetime. So, yes, our faith pleases God, while our sin grieves him. If, however, we continually quench the Spirit, we are in a dangerous place where we will no longer hear him and can fall into unbelief and perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus’ words are clear.

Absolutely right they are.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Real plain and simple. Recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

This is eternal security.

Those who think recipients of eternal life CAN perish are in direct conflict with the Lord.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

Let's include another verse in that same context:
v.24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Now for the color coded explanation.

The red words refer to the subject of v.24-29; that would be believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The blue words refer to the result of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ; possessing the gift of eternal life.

The green words refer to the future GUARANTEE of NO judgment or condemnation.

The purple words refer to the completed past event (from the moment of belief in Christ) of regeneration or the new birth.

btw, since this regeneration includes ETERNAL LIFE, and if words mean things, and they DO, then those given eternal life CANNOT DIE, ever again.

If someone who has been given eternal life CAN perish, then they never had eternal life to begin with.

Or will you argue that eternal life can die? Because the believer possesses eternal life, if he/she should perish, we know the lake of fire is also called the "second DEATH", so your argument is that eternal life CAN die.

That is a very stupid argument.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The result of following Christ, because we hear and obey His Voice is to receive eternal life, as an end result of our faith.

it seems you have no comprehension of how a 'result' is expressed. You erroneously conflate v.27 with v.28.

The result of RECEIVING ETERNAL LIFE is to never perish. That's exactly what v.28 says.

v.27, otoh, is just a description of what His sheep DO. There is NOTHING about how to become a sheep, or the result of DOING what sheep DO.

IOW those who hear and follow, will receive eternal life.

Jesus never said that.

He did say those He GIVES ETERNAL LIFE shall never perish.

If you are wondering HOW one receives eternal life, let me help you out:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:11, 13
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These verses prove that eternal life is a current possession WHEN a person believes.

It is very obvious WHY your theology is so unbiblical. You are failing to read the verses correctly.

Otherwise, folks who hear for a while then follow some other messiah, such as the antichrist are still recipients of eternal life as well.

The verses above refute your temporary notions about the gift of eternal life.

You're making possession of the gift dependent upon your life choices, or lifestyle.

That is what works salvation is all about.

Your theology is just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day.

Hopefully you can see the context.

Hopefully you can see the truth. And repent of your errors.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Never believed and have not believed are not the same at all.

I have not eaten cucumbers today. That does mean I have never eaten cucumbers.

I'm very happy to point your huge error here. When you added the word 'today', that becomes the context in a very limited sense.

So, let's fix your faulty example and see how it goes.

"I have not eaten cucumbers." That's how the Bible states those who "have not believed".

Now, given the statement "I have not eaten cucumbers"; can you honestly and with a straight face claim that the statement is TRUE IF you HAD eaten cucumbers on August 5th, 2016?

Of course, you cannot in honesty and with a straight face make that claim.

If you say "I have not eaten cucumbers" without any conditions or modifiers, that MEANS you have NEVER eaten cucumbers.

To deny this is beyond absurd.

To say I have not done something, one would have to specify whether I have not done if for a year or a month or a moment, or whether I have not done it at all, ever.

And that's WHY my claim is correct. The statement "has not believed" does NOT contain any other specification, such as time, date, etc.

And that's the whole point.

I could say "I have not believed in Santa for twenty years." Without specifying a time period, "have not believed" is not the same as "never beleived"

You've done it again. Your "example" specifies a time period.

The Bible DOESN'T. Aren't you even trying to read the verses correctly?

So, back to your second failed example.

Try this one. "I have not believed in Santa".

Now, if you EVER did believe in Santa, is that statement true? Of course NOT.

When there is no specified time element, or any other condition, that means the statement about NOT doing something means NEVER HAS done it.

If you EVER ate cucumbers, you CANNOT say "I have not eaten cucumbers".

If you EVER believed in Santa, you CANNOT say "I have not believed in Santa."

However, if you NEVER believed in Santa, you CAN say, "I have not believed in Santa."

And, if you NEVER ate cucumbers, you CAN say, "I have not eaten cucumbers."

If you don't see the reality of this, I'm afraid there is will be no use in further discussion.

I can hardly believe I'm having to explain all this to someone whose native language I assume is English.

Now, if you really are an immigrant, arriving here in the past few years, and STILL learning English, you'll get a pass.

But NOT otherwise.

There is no excuse for your errors in how to use and understand English.

 

[FreeGrace2]

A non believer can not be saved and a non believer at the same time.

Since I never ever said such a thing, it looks like we're on the same page here.

The faithless will not enter. Period.

No, the unsaved will not enter. Period.

Here's a FACT that you seem to hate:

Those given eternal life by Jesus shall never perish. No conditions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"But you keep ignoring (rejecting?) Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19 about grieving and quenching the Spirit.

Do you think a believer who grieves or quenches the Spirit pleases God?"

It is not God's will for us to quench the Spirit, but in reality, none of us ever fully reach perfection in this lifetime.

This doesn't answer my question.

So, yes, our faith pleases God, while our sin grieves him.

OK, finally the right answer.

If, however, we continually quench the Spirit, we are in a dangerous place where we will no longer hear him and can fall into unbelief and perish.

So then, you DO believe that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish.

Well, how come you seem so unaware of your direct conflict with the words of the Lord Jesus? He said the opposite: that a recipient of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH.

Why do you disagree with Him?

I don't care a bit who disagrees with me. But I do care a great deal about those who claim to be believers but totally disagree with the Savior on eternal security.

 

[renniks]

Why do you disagree with Him?

I don't care a bit who disagrees with me. But I do care a great deal about those who claim to be believers but totally disagree with the Savior on eternal security.

He is the one who states that he breaks off branches that don't abide in him, so I choose to believe him. He is the one who specifies that those who follow him receive eternal life, not those who once believed in fifth grade after a VBS, but went away to college and became agnostics.

 

[renniks]

There is no excuse for your errors in how to use and understand English.

The verse plainly says anyone who doesn't believe is condemned. All your dancing doesn't change the meaning. Can someone who does not currently believe be saved? You have indicated they can... then denied you implied that one can be a believer and non-believer at the same time. You constantly dance around the obvious Truth of scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He is the one who states that he breaks off branches that don't abide in him, so I choose to believe him.

Why do you think I don't believe Him? Of course I do. And I also know you don't understand what His metaphor refers to.

Speaking of believing Him, how come you believe that a recipient of eternal life can perish when Jesus specifically said recipients of eternal life shall never perish??

He is the one who specifies that those who follow him receive eternal life

Except He NEVER EVER said that. You're just pulling an Adam Schiff stunt now.

He said this:
John 3:15,16
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

not those who once believed in fifth grade after a VBS, but went away to college and became agnostics.

If you think you are correct about your opinions, this is what He SHOULD HAVE said in John 10:28

"I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they don't quit believing and become agnostics, they shall never perish."

That is exactly how you are seeing John 10:28.

But Jesus NEVER said what you make up.

He said He gives eternal life to recipients and they shall never perish.

iow, when He gives eternal life, the recipients shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The verse plainly says anyone who doesn't believe is condemned.

A bit of remedial reading wouldn't hurt at all.

In fact, neither John 3:18 or 2 Thess 2:12 says that. You've replaced "has not" with "doesn't". The tenses are different. You're just twisting Scripture to fit your opinions.

Since I've already thoroughly explained WHY "has not" does mean "NEVER", I'm not going to give you another lesson.

All your dancing doesn't change the meaning.

lol. Said the dancing queen.

Can someone who does not currently believe be saved?

If they EVER believed, then they were given eternal life. And Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

You connect the dots. As much as it may gall you.

You have indicated they can...

No, that would be Jesus. I'm just showing what He said. Which apparently galls you.

then denied you implied that one can be a believer and non-believer at the same time.

If I ever said a person can be a believer and non-believer at the same time, I CHALLENGE you to prove your crazy claim.

You constantly dance around the obvious Truth of scripture.

What a hoot! Said the dancing queen.

What I've proven from Scripture is that once a person believes and receives eternal life, they shall never perish. Which really seems to gall you, doesn't it.

For those who are so galled by such a thought, just need to study up on grace.

 

[renniks]

If I ever said a person can be a believer and non-believer at the same time, I CHALLENGE you to prove your crazy claim.

How can one come to any other conclusion, when you imply the world is full of saved agnostics, and even Satanists?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Men who are thrown in the lake of fire
perish.
They are not saved. They lost the possibility of salvation, if they ever had one, while they were still alive, before dying.

 

[JLB777]

it seems you have no comprehension of how a 'result' is expressed. You erroneously conflate v.27 with v.28.

The result of RECEIVING ETERNAL LIFE is to never perish. That's exactly what v.28 says.

v.27, otoh, is just a description of what His sheep DO. There is NOTHING about how to become a sheep, or the result of DOING what sheep DO.


Jesus never said that.

He did say those He GIVES ETERNAL LIFE shall never perish.

If you are wondering HOW one receives eternal life, let me help you out:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:11, 13
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These verses prove that eternal life is a current possession WHEN a person believes.

It is very obvious WHY your theology is so unbiblical. You are failing to read the verses correctly.


The verses above refute your temporary notions about the gift of eternal life.

You're making possession of the gift dependent upon your life choices, or lifestyle.

That is what works salvation is all about.

Your theology is just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day.


Hopefully you can see the truth. And repent of your errors.

The result of hearing and following (obeying) the Lord is eternal life.



JLB

 

[Phil W]

Liar.

Not everyone walks in darkness.
If they did, Jesus' mission would have been a waste of time.
He conquered sin while in the flesh!
So can we...in Him.