Salvation Cannot be Lost

[ICONO'CLAST]

You read it backwards because you think faith is an irresistible gift. It's clearly not. Jesus would hardly be amazed at the woman's faith when he healed her if he irresistibly gave it to her.

You do not understand what happened at the fall.
You do not understand that salvation is a covenant salvation in which Jesus is the surety...Heb7....guarantee.

 

[renniks]

And apostates HAVE believed at one time. So they are excluded from both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.

If one apostate exists, you whole doctrine is proven false.

 

[renniks]

Anyway, who are the ''some'' then? Because you are speculating just as much as I am because it doesn't say they were saved.

It says departed from the faith. That's flat out not possible under OSAS. Are we not saved through faith? If it meant they were false converts, it would say so.

 

[JLB777]

Are you serious??? Do you really believe that Jesus was saying that His sheep won't ever die physically???

Or are you just so confused about how to discern between the first death (physical) and the second death (which is also called the lake of fire)?

Thanks for opening the door.


But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

• the wages of sin is death

Christians who live is sin will reap eternal death.



again



Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;

Paul plainly warns Christians, if we live according to the flesh we will die; eternal death.






JLB

 

[JLB777]

Calm down buddy that's what the thread is about,read the title.


1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.''

Do you keep the ''commandments'' all the time?

Calm down buddy, that’s what the thread title is about.


Yes I keep His commandments.


If I do sin, then I confess my sin and forgiven.


I have learned to live according to the Spirit, whereby I invest my time towards the Spirit, rather than the flesh.


But that really doesn’t matter does it.

It doesn’t matter what you or I do or don’t do, because what we do doesn’t change the truth.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


This is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24





JLB

 

[Daniel C]

Calm down buddy, that’s what the thread title is about.


Yes I keep His commandments.


If I do sin, then I confess my sin and forgiven.


I have learned to live according to the Spirit, whereby I invest my time towards the Spirit, rather than the flesh.


But that really doesn’t matter does it.

It doesn’t matter what you or I do or don’t do, because what we do doesn’t change the truth.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


This is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24





JLB

So that's a yes to sin.

Correct or not?

 

[His student]

If you are trying to imply you never sin, I say you're a liar.

Right on. I wish it were not so. Few things could make me happier than for no Christian to sin again after coming to Christ.

I need to ask if you still commit sin, before "learning" anything from you.

Yes - more often than I'd like.

.................If I do sin, then I confess my sin and forgiven.

How are you coming with confessing that sin of lying and slandering FreeGrace2 a while back?

Of course - we aren't God so you don't need to confess it to us. (Besides it's obvious to us anyway by now.)

But it seems that, since you say you died when you lied about and slandered your brother and have since been reborn (assuming you have indeed confessed that grievous sin to God) - you'd be so happy that you would simply boil over and tell us all about it.

"For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:10

Becoming a believer is hard to contain - either the first time or one of the many times you teach that it happens in the life of a person who turns out to be saved in the end.

We'd just like the chance to rejoice along with you as those in Heaven are doing.

""I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." Luke 15:7

 

[Daniel C]

It says departed from the faith. That's flat out not possible under OSAS. Are we not saved through faith? If it meant they were false converts, it would say so.

I already gave you my answer and you ignored it. You are just on repeat cycle.

Anyway, who are the ''some'' then? Because you are speculating just as much as I am because it doesn't say they were saved.

I personal thought it was talking about the Catholic church and perhaps symbolic of Babylon:

''1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.''

The Catholic church is full of lies and hypocrisy covering up their scandals, it forbids the priests to marry and abstains from meat on fridays. They also follow works salvation as I stated.


There are some people here I would be willing to bet are not saved although they claim they are saved. These are the types Paul is referring to but I'm not allowed under forum rules to name.

Plus I don't gamble.

 

[renniks]

I already gave you my answer and you ignored it. You are just on repeat cycle.

Anyway, who are the ''some'' then? Because you are speculating just as much as I am because it doesn't say they were saved.

I personal thought it was talking about the Catholic church and perhaps symbolic of Babylon:

''1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.''

The Catholic church is full of lies and hypocrisy covering up their scandals, it forbids the priests to marry and abstains from meat on fridays. They also follow works salvation as I stated.


There are some people here I would be willing to bet are not saved although they claim they are saved. These are the types Paul is referring to but I'm not allowed under forum rules to name.

Plus I don't gamble.

The "some" are those who had faith and fell into disbelief. Some people will over complicate anything.
And who said anything about gambling?

 

[Daniel C]

The "some" are those who had faith and fell into disbelief. Some people will over complicate anything.
And who said anything about gambling?

Well I disagree and I've explained why.

I addressed your point.

 

[JLB777]

So that's a yes to sin.

Correct or not?

Ah, I see the problem.

You have reading comprehension issues.


Here it is again.



Yes I keep His commandments.


If I do sin, then I confess my sin and forgiven.


I have learned to live according to the Spirit, whereby I invest my time towards the Spirit, rather than the flesh.


But that really doesn’t matter does it.

It doesn’t matter what you or I do or don’t do, because what we do doesn’t change the truth.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


This is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


As an added scripture, please understand the principle of righteousness.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


He who practices righteousness is righteous,




JLB

 

[Daniel C]

Ah, I see the problem.

You have reading comprehension issues.


Here it is again.



Yes I keep His commandments.


If I do sin, then I confess my sin and forgiven.


I have learned to live according to the Spirit, whereby I invest my time towards the Spirit, rather than the flesh.


But that really doesn’t matter does it.

It doesn’t matter what you or I do or don’t do, because what we do doesn’t change the truth.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


This is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


As an added scripture, please understand the principle of righteousness.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


He who practices righteousness is righteous,




JLB

Yeah that's sort of the point. All this talk about keeping the commandments and you don't keep them yourself. So does that make you a liar?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"And apostates HAVE believed at one time. So they are excluded from both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12."

If one apostate exists, you whole doctrine is proven false.

Wrong. Just because someone ceases to believe, how does that prove my doctrine false?

You seem to keep forgetting to include evidence when you make statements.

As is, they are only opinions. Evidence from Scripture is needed to support your opinions.

My point is that of eternal security. Once a person believes, they are guaranteed an inheritance for the day of redemption.

iow, recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Paul even included the FUTURE in what CANNOT SEPARATE the believer from the love of Christ. Rom 8:38

Which is the whole point of the OP in this thread. 1 Thess 5:10 says "whether we (the believer) is awake or asleep, we SHALL LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM.

And in that context, being awake and asleep are used as metaphors for how one lives their life. Believers are supposed to be awake, but may not be, and unbelievers are asleep.

Notice what Paul commands believers to do:
5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.

iow, believers are not to act like unbelievers (asleep). But even if believers are asleep, Paul said this:
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

The OP quoted all the other passages that uses the same language for the same concept. Please review the OP for details.

 

[renniks]

Check the context. It's about the 7 year Tribulation.

21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Depends on your eschatology beliefs. It's very likely about the persecution that took place in the early church. Regardless, it doesn't change the application here. He who stand firm to the end will be saved. This can't mean saved physically, as there was certainly no guarantee of that, many were thrown to the lions, burned, sawn in half, and so on. Standing firm to the end is standing in the faith in spite of intense persecution.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It says departed from the faith. That's flat out not possible under OSAS.

Sure it is. To "leave the faith" means to cease to believe. It does NOT mean "cease to be saved", as you erroneously opine.

Are we not saved through faith?

We are saved through faith and kept by the promises and guarantees of Jesus.

But you don't believe His promises and guarantees, from all you've posted.

 

[renniks]

I said:
"And apostates HAVE believed at one time. So they are excluded from both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12."

Wrong. Just because someone ceases to believe, how does that prove my doctrine false?

You seem to keep forgetting to include evidence when you make statements.

As is, they are only opinions. Evidence from Scripture is needed to support your opinions.

My point is that of eternal security. Once a person believes, they are guaranteed an inheritance for the day of redemption.

iow, recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Paul even included the FUTURE in what CANNOT SEPARATE the believer from the love of Christ. Rom 8:38

Which is the whole point of the OP in this thread. 1 Thess 5:10 says "whether we (the believer) is awake or asleep, we SHALL LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM.

And in that context, being awake and asleep are used as metaphors for how one lives their life. Believers are supposed to be awake, but may not be, and unbelievers are asleep.

Notice what Paul commands believers to do:
5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.

iow, believers are not to act like unbelievers (asleep). But even if believers are asleep, Paul said this:
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

The OP quoted all the other passages that uses the same language for the same concept. Please review the OP for details.

So according to your doctrine, a Christian who becomes an atheist or Satanist and opposes the gospel, still gets a free ride to Glory?

 

[renniks]

But you don't believe His promises and guarantees, from all you've posted.

Those promises and guarantees are for believers.
We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12Then you will not be sluggish, but will imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised...

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks for opening the door.

You're welcome. I'm always opening the door to truth. So others may know the truth.

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

• the wages of sin is death

Christians who live is sin will reap eternal death.

Unfortunately you are wildly misunderstanding the verse.

The phrase "wages of sin" refers to the fact that the human race has earned spiritual death. And in fact, are born that way; separated from God, just as Adam was when he rebelled and ate the forbidden fruit.

However, those who believe in Christ possess eternal life (John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13). This is not arguable.

And those given eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

But you've clearly indicated that you don't believe these verses. And you've never provided what you think they actually mean.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;

Paul plainly warns Christians, if we live according to the flesh we will die; eternal death.

The "death" here refers to physical death via God's painful divine discipline. Heb 12:11, 1 Cor 11:30.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It doesn’t matter what you or I do or don’t do, because what we do doesn’t change the truth.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

What about yourself, who doesn't believe His very words, such as John 5:24 and John 10:28? That makes you a liar and the truth is not in you.

This is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Here's another example of your rejecting Scripture. Paul said of those "having believed" (notice the past tense), that they are sealed with the Spirit, a deposit that GUARANTEES their inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

Or prove me wrong with Scripture.

 

[renniks]

There is nothing here about salvation. It's about being a disciple, a student of Jesus.

Have you never noticed that in any given classroom, not all the students are paying attention. Just as in this thread, the Arminian students aren't paying any attention to the teaching of Jesus on eternal security.

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

He's telling the Jews they must hold to his teachings to be in the truth. There is no time limit here. And because the ones he spoke to refused to hold to his teaching, he told them there were not of God. What's interesting here, is that they had believed him, and then they double down and refuse to continue in the truth. And He makes it clear that they can't be among the saved in that condition.