Salvation Cannot be Lost

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"The only real question is this:

Can a recipient of eternal life perish?

What say you?"

Will you die some day?
JLB

Are you serious??? Do you really believe that Jesus was saying that His sheep won't ever die physically???

Or are you just so confused about how to discern between the first death (physical) and the second death (which is also called the lake of fire)?

John 10:28 speaks of never perishing in the sense of the second death, in case you really didn't know. Maybe this is most of the problem of your failure to follow what I've been explaining. Well then, no wonder.

In any case, you once again proved an inability or unwillingness to answer my question.

But it doesn't matter. The obvious fact is that those who espouse loss of salvation HAVE TO BELIEVE that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

And John 10:28 totally demolishes that fantasy. They shall never perish.

And Jesus wasn't talking about physical death, as your non-answer implies.

Anyway, just know that your opinions are in direct opposition to Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes I read that the first time, which is why I asked the question again.

This isn’t an answer, nor does it answer my question.

Oh, this is rich. Just 2 posts previous (656) you failed to answer my question. So now you're pointing out what others have done to your questions?? Hypocrite.

Last time -
What is it a person must have in order to be given more?

Last time -

Can a recipient of eternal life perish?

 

[renniks]

Oh, this is interesting. Which verse in the Bible speaks of this "living belief"??


Oh, and while you're at it, please quote or at least cite the verse that says what you claim, which is this: "salvation is conditional on continuing faith".

I don't believe you.

Oh, this is interesting. Which verse in the Bible speaks of this "living belief"??


Oh, and while you're at it, please quote or at least cite the verse that says what you claim, which is this: "salvation is conditional on continuing faith".

I don't believe you.

John 11:26
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?
Jesus added the word “lives” here to show that He offers eternal life to living human beings. “Lives” then refers to living in time on earth before a person’s death. It refers to living with eternal life already begun in the soul after a person places his faith in Christ.
and believes in Me

This person has already come to the point of belief in Jesus but is here characterized as a believer (present participle).

shall never [never, never] die.

The dead who believed in Jesus will rise, and the living who believe in Him will never, never die spiritually. Eternal life begins here and now. Those who believe in Him already have eternal life.

 

[renniks]

No...it proves saved persons persevere in the faith as God works in them.

You read it backwards because you think faith is an irresistible gift. It's clearly not. Jesus would hardly be amazed at the woman's faith when he healed her if he irresistibly gave it to her.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where does scripture say that a former believer is still saved?

It is clearly implied in 2 verses.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but in the name of God’s one and only Son.whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

These verses say say condemnation is for those who have not believed. By extension, that excludes those who have ceased to believe. Because they HAVE BELIEVED at one time.

You're welcome.

Not works, continuing faith is necessary for salvation. There's plenty of warnings about falling into disbelief.

Sure, there are warnings about falling into disbelief. And all of them are warning about God's painful (Heb 12:11) discipline towards His rebellious children.

But NONE of the warnings speak of losing salvation. I'll repeat: NONE of them.

But, to your point about "continuing faith being necessary for salvation".

Please either quote or cite a verse that actually says this, or quit making this statement, because it is FALSE.

 

[FreeGrace2]

To all OSAS doctrinal folks.

Does a born again believer who is in Christ, still have eternal life if he is no longer in Christ?

To all Arminians: This is a phony question. It's totally bogus, as it implies that a saved person can be removed from Christ. In spite of the clear wording of Eph 1:13,14.
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The red words refer to those who believe in Christ. Believers, saved people.
The blue words refer to what happens to those who have believed; they are marked IN HIM (Christ) with a seal, the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit.
The green words refer to what the Holy Spirit, as a deposit, GUARANTEES; the believer's inheritance until the day of redemption (Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.)
The purple words describe believers as God's possession.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The only thing you will lose by going beyond the doctrine of Christ is your eternal life.

How come you are so willing to not even come close to the doctrine of Christ?

How about discussing the doctrine of Christ?

Yeah, let's do that. Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So, why do you believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish???

You need some 'splainin' to do.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

I would say whoever rejects the very words of Jesus (doctrine) doesn't have Christ.

And those who HAVE BELIEVED still have Christ but will face God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) for their unbelief at the words of Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

One thing you need to understand right up front when debating eternal security vs.non-eternal security is that the opposite side can accept your proof texts and still hold to eternal security where as you cannot accept theirs and hold to lack of eternal security.

That's a humbling logical truth to face right off the bat in this debate and probably why you are unwilling to have the debate in the first place.

I.e. there are many ways to account for those warnings about judgement that eternal security types can appeal to to explain them and they don't need to just ignore them.

Whereas - there are absolutely no ways to account for the many clear and unambiguous statements used as proof texts for eternal security without your rejecting them outright or ignoring them.

Bingo! And I've been 'splainin' all those supposedly proof-texts on loss of salvation for years to him. He seems to be beyond reason on the subject.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This thread is more of a question about what manifests "belief".

Couldn't be more wrong. The OP is clearly about the fact that those who have believed cannot lose salvation.

If you want to discuss what constitutes belief, then start a thread.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’m not debating eternal security bs non eternal security, which are man made doctrines.

Of course you are. And have been for years.

btw, you are correct in your statement: "bs non eternal security". That man made doctrine certainly is bs.

You either believe what Christ taught or you don’t.

And I've shown repeatedly that you don't believe what Christ taught.

He said in the clearest of words that recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

But your loss of salvation theology is the exact opposite. That recipients CAN perish.

Which proves that you do not believe what Christ taught.

Those who disobey His commandments and doctrine will find themselves removed from Christ, if they don’t repent.

Per your own theology, that should give you the chills.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

By rejecting what Jesus taught, the truth is NOT in you, and you are, according to the Bible, a LIAR.

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16

You certainly need to take heed to your man made false doctrine, which offends the clear teaching of Jesus Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

ICONO'CLAST said: ↑
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

More proof that one must continue in faith to receive the promises.

No, the verese is about receiving eternal rewards. The Bible teaches about 2 inheritances. One is based on being a child of God - Rom 8:17a. The other is based on works - Rom 8:17b.

In fact, you have no proof that continuing faith is required for salvation.

If that were true, then John 10:28 would have said this:

"I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they continue in the faith, they shall never perish."

Now, THAT'S a proof text. Clear and unambiguous. But Jesus said no such thing.

In fact, He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients to meet in order to not perish.

But Arminians continue to make up a lot of stuff and try to force their lists of conditions into what Jesus said. Which He never said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Oh, and while you're at it, please quote or at least cite the verse that says what you claim, which is this: "salvation is conditional on continuing faith".

I don't believe you."

John 11:26
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?
Jesus added the word “lives” here to show that He offers eternal life to living human beings. “Lives” then refers to living in time on earth before a person’s death. It refers to living with eternal life already begun in the soul after a person places his faith in Christ.
and believes in Me

This person has already come to the point of belief in Jesus but is here characterized as a believer (present participle).

shall never [never, never] die.

The dead who believed in Jesus will rise, and the living who believe in Him will never, never die spiritually. Eternal life begins here and now. Those who believe in Him already have eternal life.

OK, all of this is true. But where is the actual evidence that salvation is conditioned on continual belief, as you keep saying?

While you're at it, don't forget to address all the verses where the action of believing is in the aorist tense, a generally past tense action. Thanks.

 

[renniks]

whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed

Thanks for proving my point. Whoever does not believe is condemned. Do you see any confusion there? Any conditions? If one doesn't believe they are condemned, and it doesn't make any difference if they once believed. That any Christian would need this explained it very puzzling. We are called believers, after all. We aren't called one time believers. There's a word for that: apostate.

 

[Daniel C]

More like, you have avoided answering any of my verses. Everybody believes salvation is conditional to enter into, and scripture makes it clear that many will fall away. 1Timothy 4:1
How do you reconcile this with OSAS?

Ok renniks i'll deal with this head on but i'm sure you will accuse me again of avoiding this verse,even though I've taken every single objection from the opponents of eternal security.


''Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devil;''

My interpretation of this verse is people who claim to be Christian will fall away but were not actually born again eternally sealed Christians to be begin with,hence they fell away. You can't lose what you never had but you claim that you have it (salvation) or associate with people who have it.

Example:Judas was with them but not of them but then he departed.

As a side note,this verse does not actually say a saved person will depart, it says ''some'' so who are the some? I say the people who are trusting the works salvation because they never received the free eternal gift of salvation to begin with.....but they think they do and assemble with people who genuinely do.

 

[Daniel C]

I’m not debating eternal security bs non eternal security, which are man made doctrines.


You either believe what Christ taught or you don’t.




Those who disobey His commandments and doctrine will find themselves removed from Christ, if they don’t repent.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.




Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16



JLB

Calm down buddy that's what the thread is about,read the title.


1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.''

Do you keep the ''commandments'' all the time?

 

[renniks]

ICONO'CLAST said: ↑
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

No, the verese is about receiving eternal rewards. The Bible teaches about 2 inheritances. One is based on being a child of God - Rom 8:17a. The other is based on works - Rom 8:17b.

In fact, you have no proof that continuing faith is required for salvation.

If that were true, then John 10:28 would have said this:

"I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they continue in the faith, they shall never perish."

Now, THAT'S a proof text. Clear and unambiguous. But Jesus said no such thing.

In fact, He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients to meet in order to not perish.

But Arminians continue to make up a lot of stuff and try to force their lists of conditions into what Jesus said. Which He never said.

Matthew 10.22: Jesus said to his disciples, “You will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved”
John 8.31: “Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, ‘If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.’”

Romans 11.22: “Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”



1 Corinthians 15.1-2: “I would remind you, brothers and sisters, of the good news that I proclaimed to you, which you in turn received, in which also you stand, through which also you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you—unless you have come to believe in vain.”


2 Corinthians 13.5: “Examine yourselves to see whether you are living in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless, indeed, you fail to meet the test!”

Colossians 1.23: God “has now reconciled” you to himself, “provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith.”

 

[renniks]

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devil;''

My interpretation of this verse is people who claim to be Christian will fall away but were not actually born again eternally sealed Christians to be begin with,hence they fell away. You can't lose what you never had but you claim that you have it (salvation) or associate with people who have it.

Only that's not what it says. It says they depart from the faith. It's nonsense to say you can depart from something you never possessed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed"

Thanks for proving my point.

This is beyond funny. lol. I proved my point. That condemnation is for those who have NOT believed.

Whoever does not believe is condemned. Do you see any confusion there?

You aren't reading the whole verse. Either one. The key is that both verses say "who have NOT believed". Why do you insist on ignoring that very important fact?

Any conditions? If one doesn't believe they are condemned, and it doesn't make any difference if they once believed.

Well, if words don't mean anything to you, then, yeah, go ahead and believe that.

But, words DO mean things. And the words "have not believed" means NEVER believed.

If I have to keep explaining this very simple fact again, then I'll know there is no use.

That any Christian would need this explained it very puzzling.

Just focus on the FACT that condemnation is for those who HAVE NOT believed. That means NEVER believed.

But go ahead and prove me wrong.

We are called believers, after all. We aren't called one time believers. There's a word for that: apostate.

And apostates HAVE believed at one time. So they are excluded from both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.

 

[Daniel C]

Only that's not what it says. It says they depart from the faith. It's nonsense to say you can depart from something you never possessed.

Well at least you're not accusing me of avoiding the questions now,I appriate that.

Anyway, who are the ''some'' then? Because you are speculating just as much as I am because it doesn't say they were saved.

I personal thought it was talking about the Catholic church and perhaps symbolic of Babylon:

''1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.''

The Catholic church is full of lies and hypocrisy covering up their scandals, it forbids the priests to marry and abstains from meat on fridays. They also follow works salvation as I stated.

 

[FreeGrace2]

i said:
"In fact, you have no proof that continuing faith is required for salvation.

If that were true, then John 10:28 would have said this:

"I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they continue in the faith, they shall never perish."

Now, THAT'S a proof text. Clear and unambiguous. But Jesus said no such thing.

In fact, He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients to meet in order to not perish.

But Arminians continue to make up a lot of stuff and try to force their lists of conditions into what Jesus said. Which He never said."

So, how do you respond? With more verses that don't support your theory.

Matthew 10.22: Jesus said to his disciples, “You will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved”

Check the context. It's about the 7 year Tribulation.

John 8.31: “Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, ‘If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.’”

There is nothing here about salvation. It's about being a disciple, a student of Jesus.

Have you never noticed that in any given classroom, not all the students are paying attention. Just as in this thread, the Arminian students aren't paying any attention to the teaching of Jesus on eternal security.

Romans 11.22: “Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”

This isn't about loss of salvation. That has to be assumed, or presumed. And that's the problem with ALL of your verses. They require assumption.

The phrase "cut off" was used frequently in the OT for physical death.

1 Corinthians 15.1-2: “I would remind you, brothers and sisters, of the good news that I proclaimed to you, which you in turn received, in which also you stand, through which also you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you—unless you have come to believe in vain.”

Easy peasy. The Greek word for "hold firmly" is a single word that means 'possess'.

It has NOTHING to do with your own actions of holding on. Second, "in vain" is another single Greek word that means "without reason".

Do you have any idea what "believe in vain" means? It means to believe without an object. Kinda like "have faith in faith". That is a meaningless phrase.

2 Corinthians 13.5: “Examine yourselves to see whether you are living in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless, indeed, you fail to meet the test!”

More easy peasy. Paul is challenging the Corinthians to examine their lifestyles, to see if they are living the faith. What he isn't doing is challenging them to examine whether they are saved. Just read both epistles and count the times that Paul AFFIRMS their saved state.

Colossians 1.23: God “has now reconciled” you to himself, “provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith.”

How can anyone make sense of only PART of the text. You left off the previous verse, which is ABSOLUTELY necessary to understand the "if you continue" of v.23.

22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

OK, now for the explanation.

The red words are what God has done for the believer.
The blue words refer to God's plan for believers.
The green words express the condition required in order for God to present believers holy and blameless in His sight.

iow, if believers don't continue in their faith, God cannot present them holy and blameless.