Salvation Cannot be Lost

[FreeGrace2]

Rom 7 is a transition form Rom 6's end of walking in the flesh and Rom 8's start to walk in the Spirit.

As is quite clear, Romans 7 is Paul's PRESENT experience. And backed up from 1 Tim 1:15.

So, please prove that in 1 Tim 1:15, Paul was speaking in the historical present.

Now, since this thread is about the fact that Christians cannot lose salvation, and is in the soteriology folder, your posts aren't appropriate for this thread or folder.

If you want to continue your discussion, please start a new thread in an appropriate folder. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

freegrace2,

1. Your point is to be unfair in exegesis no matter what the subject is.

You've never proved your claims.

2. If you want to talk about whether a Christian can lose their salvation or not you may go first. Jerry Kelso

Did. The OP is mine. Make your case.

 

[Phil W]

As is quite clear, Romans 7 is Paul's PRESENT experience. And backed up from 1 Tim 1:15.

It is indeed, but it is his present remembrance of a past in the flesh: a past subject to the Mosaic Law.
A past in the flesh, and coming up short of obedience to the Law.
A fleshly experience with the law of sin and death in his members.
As Romans 6 details the death of the flesh, it would be impossible for him to still be serving the flesh...unless he was suddenly opposing his prior chapter's writings.
And, Romans 8:2 says he has been freed form the law of sin in his members by the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.
His present state is one free from the law of sin and death he lamented in Rom 7:23.

So, please prove that in 1 Tim 1:15, Paul was speaking in the historical present.

Don't need to.
Paul had been saved from what he once was.
And he is thankfully declaring it...to the glory of God.

Now, since this thread is about the fact that Christians cannot lose salvation, and is in the soteriology folder, your posts aren't appropriate for this thread or folder.
If you want to continue your discussion, please start a new thread in an appropriate folder. Thanks.

As salvation won't be assured till the day of judgement, "losing salvation" is a moot point.
Live every day with the loss of salvation at your final judgement yet to be determined.

I'm sure you must be in agreement with this assessment, because your IP declared..."v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation."
Salvation is a "destination".

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is indeed, but it is his present remembrance of a past in the flesh: a past subject to the Mosaic Law.

Oh, stop it! You've not proven your claim.

And there is nothing in the context that he was reminiscing.

A past in the flesh, and coming up short of obedience to the Law.

Nope. His current and present struggle. Which is OBVIOUS from the very words.

A fleshly experience with the law of sin and death in his members.

See above.

As Romans 6 details the death of the flesh, it would be impossible for him to still be serving the flesh...unless he was suddenly opposing his prior chapter's writings.

And you have misread ch 6 just as much as ch 7. Ch 6 is all about the PRESENT choices each believer is faced with. Whether to obey sin, or obey righteousness.

Why do you think it's a one time deal? It's moment by moment.

And, Romans 8:2 says he has been freed form the law of sin in his members by the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

How many times must I repeat the FACT that to be "free from sin" or "free from the law of sin" refers to the PENALTY of sin???

His present state is one free from the law of sin and death he lamented in Rom 7:23.

Except there isn't ANY verse that says this. Only your imagination.

Live every day with the loss of salvation at your final judgement yet to be determined.

I have NO intentions of offending my Lord and Savior by NOT BELIEVING HIS promise that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Those who believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish are in direct opposition to the Lord Jesus Christ. That is SIN.

I'm sure you must be in agreement with this assessment, because your IP declared..."v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation."
Salvation is a "destination".

My destination has ALREADY been GUARANTEED.

John 10:28
Eph 1:13,14
2 Cor 1:22
Rom 11:29, with Rom 6:23

The FACT that you don't believe that about your own destination is an abomination to the Lord and His complete work of grace for those who have believed in Him for salvation.

 

[Phil W]

Oh, stop it! You've not proven your claim.
And there is nothing in the context that he was reminiscing.

Nothing but verses Romans 7:5 and 18.
"When we WERE in the flesh", and "(that is, in my flesh)".
Both references to the past.
The flesh was killed in Rom 6 so must be a reference to the past from the present perspective.

And you have misread ch 6 just as much as ch 7. Ch 6 is all about the PRESENT choices each believer is faced with. Whether to obey sin, or obey righteousness.

Those still walking in the flesh have made their choice of whom to follow.
It isn't Jesus.

Why do you think it's a one time deal? It's moment by moment.

It is a one time deal because water baptism is a one time deal.
That is where/when the flesh/old man is killed with Christ. (Rom 6:6)

How many times must I repeat the FACT that to be "free from sin" or "free from the law of sin" refers to the PENALTY of sin???

Quit wasting your breath trying to convince me I'm still a servant of sin when I have been freed from it.
Those who commit sin will have a judgement to face, and God is no respector of peoples.

Except there isn't ANY verse that says this. Only your imagination.

Romans 8:2 says "it"..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

I have NO intentions of offending my Lord and Savior by NOT BELIEVING HIS promise that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.
Those who believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish are in direct opposition to the Lord Jesus Christ. That is SIN.
My destination has ALREADY been GUARANTEED.
John 10:28
Eph 1:13,14
2 Cor 1:22
Rom 11:29, with Rom 6:23.

As His sheep are the ones who "follow Him", that automatically disqualifies those who commit sin.
The Spirit is a "down payment" on what you claim to already possess.
Rom 6:22..."But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."
You've got to be free from sin before you can be a servant of God.

The FACT that you don't believe that about your own destination is an abomination to the Lord and His complete work of grace for those who have believed in Him for salvation.

Ever read Matt 7:22-23?
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Doesn't that sound like believers to you?
Believers that still committed sin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Oh, stop it! You've not proven your claim.
And there is nothing in the context that he was reminiscing."

Nothing but verses Romans 7:5 and 18.
"When we WERE in the flesh", and "(that is, in my flesh)".

Since when is every mention of the past proof that the WHOLE chapter is in the historical present? No dice.

v.5 is not a "reminiscing", but a REMINDER.

What have you done with v.6?
6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Have you redacted it from your Bible?

The words "but now" obviously bring us back to the PRESENT. So you can give up your "historical present" fantasy.

You cited v.18. Well, let's look at all of what Paul wrote:
18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Now, are you seriously going to argue that all these red words are a historical present?

You can fantasize all you want, but it's very clear that Paul was speaking in the PRESENT TENSE, revealing his own on-going struggle with sin.

Both references to the past.

Not.even.close.

The flesh was killed in Rom 6 so must be a reference to the past from the present perspective.

No. Paul explained the on-going CHOICE that believers face of whom to obey.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

v.11,12,13 are commands of what NOT to do. All commands offer a choice; whether to obey them or not.

v.14 is a policy statement with an explanation of WHY believers should not obey sin.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!

Here, Paul asks the obvious question. Showing that sin is a choice.

16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Again, Paul shows the options (choices) every believer faces daily.

Those still walking in the flesh have made their choice of whom to follow.
It isn't Jesus.

Right. But what you continue to fail to understand is that this choice is not a one time deal. It's something every believer faces every day. Temptations change all the time. A believer may choose to obey righteousness one time, but fail another time and choose to obey sin.

I am wondering why this seems so unreasonable to you?

It is a one time deal because water baptism is a one time deal.

Where in the world do you get this notion from? Certainly not the Bible. There is no magic in water. Period.

In fact, Peter drowns your theory in 1 Pet 3:20,21
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

It seems you are reading v.20 quite WRONG. As if Peter wrote "saved BY water". In fact, the 8 in the ark were saved (delivered, rescued) FROM the literal water that destroyed the entire human race at that time.

Haven't you realized that the entire human race were immersed (baptized) BY water? Did that save anyone? Of course not. It KILLED all of them.

So, v.20 shows the NEED for being saved FROM the literal water that killed everyone else, Peter moves on to say that literal "water SYMBOLIZES baptism that now saves".

Did you get that? The water that killed the entire human race in Noah's day SYMBOLIZES baptism that saves.

So, it is CLEARLY NOT WATER BAPTISM that saves. So, what other kind of baptism is there? Glad you asked.

This is what John the Baptist said in Mark 1:8 - I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

There it is, in black and white. The baptism of the Holy Spirit corresponds to the sealing ministry of the Spirit in Eph 1:13,14.

The MOMENT a person believes in Christ for salvation, they ARE SEALED with the Spirit, and it is this sealing that John was referring to as a baptism.

Remember that the original meaning of the Greek word was associated with IDENTIFICATION, not just dunking in water. In fact, the word was used in reference to dying cloth. When dipped into dye (not just water) the cloth came out with a different color. iow, the cloth has a NEW IDENTITY.

So, Holy Spirit baptism (sealing with the Spirit) IDENTIFIES the believer as God's POSSESSION.

Eph 1-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

If this isn't enough to convince you of this, consider what Peter said about Cornelius and family when they believed the gospel he preached to them:

Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

The red words refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
The blue words clarify the DIFFERENCE between literal water baptism and baptism with the Spirit.
The green words show that the sealing ministry of the Spirit (baptism) is a gift.

That is where/when the flesh/old man is killed with Christ. (Rom 6:6)

In order to understand Paul's argument here and in 7:13-25 and 8:10-11, we must distinguish between "person" and "nature". Something you aren't willing to do.

At regeneration one is judicially acquitted and receives a new supernaturally endowed inclination to comply with God's mandates, and the Holy Spirit to empower to obey God.

But the regenerate man remains NO LESS the SAME METAPHYSICAL PERSON with the entire complex of attributes of fallen humanity in Adam. But you continue to deny this.

Therefore, though the "old man" has been crucified, he is still present in our flesh. But through the new life and Holy Spirit, he no longer controls the believer, though we can STiLL ALLOW him to (v.13).

That's the choice I keep referring to.

Quit wasting your breath trying to convince me I'm still a servant of sin when I have been freed from it.

Let me be clear again. You are FREE from the PENALTY of sin. You ARE NOT free from the power of sin, because it's an on-going choice of whether to obey sin or righteousness. That is what Paul SAID in Rom 6:13 and 16.

Those who commit sin will have a judgement to face, and God is no respector of peoples.

Do you believe that Christ did NOT die for every sin?

Romans 8:2 says "it"..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

Yep. Free from the PENALTY of sin. Not the practice of sin, as you wrongly opine.

As His sheep are the ones who "follow Him", that automatically disqualifies those who commit sin.

This doesn't even make sense.

There is nothing "automatic" about the Christian life regarding practice. It's all about choice, which you keep denying.

The Spirit is a "down payment" on what you claim to already possess.

Please quit misreading the Bible.

The down payment or GUARANTEE is my inheritance for the day of redemption.

What I possess right now is the gift of eternal life. Given to me by Jesus the MOMENT I put my faith in Him alone for salvation.

Rom 6:22..."But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."
You've got to be free from sin before you can be a servant of God.

The only way you can be "free from the power of sin" is by being IN fellowship with the Lord through confession of your sins and by being filled with the Spirit.

There is no other way.

Your fantasy that this is an automatic thing for believers is refuted by all the commands in Scripture about not sinning.

Ever read Matt 7:22-23?
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Doesn't that sound like believers to you?

No. Why should it? Didn't you bother to read and comprehend what their WHOLE basis of entering the kingdom was? Works. Just works. Nothing about believing at all.

In fact, this is PROVEN by the fact of what Jesus said to them: "I NEVER KNEW YOU".

That proves that this crowd NEVER believed in Him for salvation. They based entrance into the kingdom on what THEY did.

Believers that still committed sin.

Couldn't be farther from the truth. They were unbelievers. Religious ones, to be sure.

And Jesus NEVER KNEW them. Period.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"Oh, stop it! You've not proven your claim.
And there is nothing in the context that he was reminiscing."
Since when is every mention of the past proof that the WHOLE chapter is in the historical present? No dice.

Not all of Rom 7 is present-historical.

v.5, (For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.), is not a "reminiscing", but a REMINDER.

A reminder of a past situation.
But clearly a differentiation form our status now. Walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

What have you done with v.6?
6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.[
Have you redacted it from your Bible?
The words "but now" obviously bring us back to the PRESENT. So you can give up your "historical present" fantasy.

Back to the present...from where?
From a "reminder" of the past.

You cited v.18. Well, let's look at all of what Paul wrote:
18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Now, are you seriously going to argue that all these red words are a historical present?

Paul is talking about the condition he was in prior to his conversion.
He is speaking as if he were still there...narrating the condition he was in while still in the flesh.
That is the present/historical form of writing.
In verse 23..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."...he cites the cause of his prior dilemma...the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:2 says he has been freed from this law, so it can't be a "present" condition.























You can fantasize all you want, but it's very clear that Paul was speaking in the PRESENT TENSE, revealing his own on-going struggle with sin.


Not.even.close.


No. Paul explained the on-going CHOICE that believers face of whom to obey.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

v.11,12,13 are commands of what NOT to do. All commands offer a choice; whether to obey them or not.

v.14 is a policy statement with an explanation of WHY believers should not obey sin.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!

Here, Paul asks the obvious question. Showing that sin is a choice.

16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Again, Paul shows the options (choices) every believer faces daily.


Right. But what you continue to fail to understand is that this choice is not a one time deal. It's something every believer faces every day. Temptations change all the time. A believer may choose to obey righteousness one time, but fail another time and choose to obey sin.

I am wondering why this seems so unreasonable to you?


Where in the world do you get this notion from? Certainly not the Bible. There is no magic in water. Period.

In fact, Peter drowns your theory in 1 Pet 3:20,21
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

It seems you are reading v.20 quite WRONG. As if Peter wrote "saved BY water". In fact, the 8 in the ark were saved (delivered, rescued) FROM the literal water that destroyed the entire human race at that time.

Haven't you realized that the entire human race were immersed (baptized) BY water? Did that save anyone? Of course not. It KILLED all of them.

So, v.20 shows the NEED for being saved FROM the literal water that killed everyone else, Peter moves on to say that literal "water SYMBOLIZES baptism that now saves".

Did you get that? The water that killed the entire human race in Noah's day SYMBOLIZES baptism that saves.

So, it is CLEARLY NOT WATER BAPTISM that saves. So, what other kind of baptism is there? Glad you asked.

This is what John the Baptist said in Mark 1:8 - I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

There it is, in black and white. The baptism of the Holy Spirit corresponds to the sealing ministry of the Spirit in Eph 1:13,14.

The MOMENT a person believes in Christ for salvation, they ARE SEALED with the Spirit, and it is this sealing that John was referring to as a baptism.

Remember that the original meaning of the Greek word was associated with IDENTIFICATION, not just dunking in water. In fact, the word was used in reference to dying cloth. When dipped into dye (not just water) the cloth came out with a different color. iow, the cloth has a NEW IDENTITY.

So, Holy Spirit baptism (sealing with the Spirit) IDENTIFIES the believer as God's POSSESSION.

Eph 1-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

If this isn't enough to convince you of this, consider what Peter said about Cornelius and family when they believed the gospel he preached to them:

Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

The red words refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
The blue words clarify the DIFFERENCE between literal water baptism and baptism with the Spirit.
The green words show that the sealing ministry of the Spirit (baptism) is a gift.


In order to understand Paul's argument here and in 7:13-25 and 8:10-11, we must distinguish between "person" and "nature". Something you aren't willing to do.

At regeneration one is judicially acquitted and receives a new supernaturally endowed inclination to comply with God's mandates, and the Holy Spirit to empower to obey God.

But the regenerate man remains NO LESS the SAME METAPHYSICAL PERSON with the entire complex of attributes of fallen humanity in Adam. But you continue to deny this.

Therefore, though the "old man" has been crucified, he is still present in our flesh. But through the new life and Holy Spirit, he no longer controls the believer, though we can STiLL ALLOW him to (v.13).

That's the choice I keep referring to.


Let me be clear again. You are FREE from the PENALTY of sin. You ARE NOT free from the power of sin, because it's an on-going choice of whether to obey sin or righteousness. That is what Paul SAID in Rom 6:13 and 16.


Do you believe that Christ did NOT die for every sin?


Yep. Free from the PENALTY of sin. Not the practice of sin, as you wrongly opine.


This doesn't even make sense.

There is nothing "automatic" about the Christian life regarding practice. It's all about choice, which you keep denying.


Please quit misreading the Bible.

The down payment or GUARANTEE is my inheritance for the day of redemption.

What I possess right now is the gift of eternal life. Given to me by Jesus the MOMENT I put my faith in Him alone for salvation.


The only way you can be "free from the power of sin" is by being IN fellowship with the Lord through confession of your sins and by being filled with the Spirit.

There is no other way.

Your fantasy that this is an automatic thing for believers is refuted by all the commands in Scripture about not sinning.


No. Why should it? Didn't you bother to read and comprehend what their WHOLE basis of entering the kingdom was? Works. Just works. Nothing about believing at all.

In fact, this is PROVEN by the fact of what Jesus said to them: "I NEVER KNEW YOU".

That proves that this crowd NEVER believed in Him for salvation. They based entrance into the kingdom on what THEY did.


Couldn't be farther from the truth. They were unbelievers. Religious ones, to be sure.

And Jesus NEVER KNEW them. Period.[/QUOTE]

 

[Phil W]

Not all of Rom 7 is present-historical.

A reminder of a past situation.
But clearly a differentiation form our status now. Walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

Back to the present...from where?
From a "reminder" of the past.

Paul is talking about the condition he was in prior to his conversion.
He is speaking as if he were still there...narrating the condition he was in while still in the flesh.
That is the present/historical form of writing.
In verse 23..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."...he cites the cause of his prior dilemma...the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:2 says he has been freed from this law, so it can't be a "present" condition.

You can fantasize all you want, but it's very clear that Paul was speaking in the PRESENT TENSE, revealing his own on-going struggle with sin.

You must decide whether Paul was freed, or not, from the law of sin and death, (Rom 7:23), by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:2)
Right now your answer seems to be "no".

Not.even.close.
No. Paul explained the on-going CHOICE that believers face of whom to obey.

Where then, if not Romans 6, does one find the information of how to kill the old man-flesh-affections-and lusts?

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
v.11,12,13 are commands of what NOT to do. All commands offer a choice; whether to obey them or not.
v.14 is a policy statement with an explanation of WHY believers should not obey sin.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
Here, Paul asks the obvious question. Showing that sin is a choice.
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Again, Paul shows the options (choices) every believer faces daily.

Which path do you think the real believers have chosen?
I have chosen righteousness...thanks be to God.

Right. But what you continue to fail to understand is that this choice is not a one time deal. It's something every believer faces every day. Temptations change all the time. A believer may choose to obey righteousness one time, but fail another time and choose to obey si
I am wondering why this seems so unreasonable to you?

It isn't disagreeable at all.
Make the right choices! We have been given everything we need to do so.
Thanks be to God.

Where in the world do you get this notion from? Certainly not the Bible. There is no magic in water. Period.

There is if the "water" is also the blood and Spirit of our Lord. (1 John 5:8)

In fact, Peter drowns your theory in 1 Pet 3:20,21
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
It seems you are reading v.20 quite WRONG. As if Peter wrote "saved BY water". In fact, the 8 in the ark were saved (delivered, rescued) FROM the literal water that destroyed the entire human race at that time.

Ever asked yourself how the resurrection plays into baptism?
Rom 6:4-5..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
Without the baptism, (burial), there is no resurrection with Christ.

Haven't you realized that the entire human race were immersed (baptized) BY water? Did that save anyone? Of course not. It KILLED all of them.

Even a real baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38), is useless without a repentance from sin.

So, v.20 shows the NEED for being saved FROM the literal water that killed everyone else, Peter moves on to say that literal "water SYMBOLIZES baptism that now saves".
Did you get that? The water that killed the entire human race in Noah's day SYMBOLIZES baptism that saves.
So, it is CLEARLY NOT WATER BAPTISM that saves. So, what other kind of baptism is there? Glad you asked.

Who is our Arc?
How do we get in Him?

No other baptism is up for discussion.

In order to understand Paul's argument here and in 7:13-25 and 8:10-11, we must distinguish between "person" and "nature". Something you aren't willing to do.

I don't believe in putting new wine into old bottles.

At regeneration one is judicially acquitted and receives a new supernaturally endowed inclination to comply with God's mandates, and the Holy Spirit to empower to obey God.
But the regenerate man remains NO LESS the SAME METAPHYSICAL PERSON with the entire complex of attributes of fallen humanity in Adam. But you continue to deny this.
Therefore, though the "old man" has been crucified, he is still present in our flesh. But through the new life and Holy Spirit, he no longer controls the believer, though we can STiLL ALLOW him to (v.13).
That's the choice I keep referring to.

I thank God for allowing me to see through the kind of smoke screen that allows so-called believers to continue in their bondage to sin.

Let me be clear again. You are FREE from the PENALTY of sin. You ARE NOT free from the power of sin, because it's an on-going choice of whether to obey sin or righteousness. That is what Paul SAID in Rom 6:13 and 16.

Only folks who are free from sin are free from it's penalty.

Do you believe that Christ did NOT die for every sin?

Only for the ones one quits doing. (Rom 3:25)

Yep. Free from the PENALTY of sin. Not the practice of sin, as you wrongly opine.

Your doctrine frees men from the penalty of rebellion towards God, but no the rebellion.
Mine frees men from rebellion towards God and offers the payment for past sins.

This doesn't even make sense.
There is nothing "automatic" about the Christian life regarding practice. It's all about choice, which you keep denying.

Christ's sheep hear and obey ONLY His voice.
It is automatic for those washed by the blood of Christ and reborn of Godly seed.
We choose rightly all the time.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.
Those reborn of God's seed cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.

Please quit misreading the Bible.
The down payment or GUARANTEE is my inheritance for the day of redemption.
What I possess right now is the gift of eternal life. Given to me by Jesus the MOMENT I put my faith in Him alone for salvation.

Why did your faith just quit at the door?

The only way you can be "free from the power of sin" is by being IN fellowship with the Lord through confession of your sins and by being filled with the Spirit.

What does that say about sinning false believers?

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom.6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not all of Rom 7 is present-historical.

Right. Most of it is simply the present tense. Paul was describing his present struggle with his sinful nature.

But clearly a differentiation form our status now. Walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

Apparently you have the false view that a believer is always walking in the Spirit. Why is that? Esp since we are commanded to walk by means of the Spirit and to be filled with the Spirit. So obviously it is not automatic or guaranteed.

Paul is talking about the condition he was in prior to his conversion.

No matter how often you repeat yourself, doesn't make it true.

He is speaking as if he were still there...narrating the condition he was in while still in the flesh.

There is NO evidence of any narration.

How about addressing what I presented about the historical present from Daniel Wallace's book?

In verse 23..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."...he cites the cause of his prior dilemma...the law of sin and death.

There is absolutely NO evidence that this is any kind of "prior dilemma". It appears you are just injecting your own opinion into the text.

v.23 is as clear a present condition as Paul could express.

Romans 8:2 says he has been freed from this law, so it can't be a "present" condition.

I have repeatedly explained what "free from sin" means, and yet, you avoid any discussion of it. It's because you know you can't refute the FACT that the believer has been freed from the PENALTY of sin, but not the power of sin.

I posted this:
"You can fantasize all you want, but it's very clear that Paul was speaking in the PRESENT TENSE, revealing his own on-going struggle with sin.

Not.even.close.

No. Paul explained the on-going CHOICE that believers face of whom to obey.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

v.11,12,13 are commands of what NOT to do. All commands offer a choice; whether to obey them or not.

v.14 is a policy statement with an explanation of WHY believers should not obey sin.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!

Here, Paul asks the obvious question. Showing that sin is a choice.

16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Again, Paul shows the options (choices) every believer faces daily.


Right. But what you continue to fail to understand is that this choice is not a one time deal. It's something every believer faces every day. Temptations change all the time. A believer may choose to obey righteousness one time, but fail another time and choose to obey sin.

I am wondering why this seems so unreasonable to you?

Where in the world do you get this notion from? Certainly not the Bible. There is no magic in water. Period.

In fact, Peter drowns your theory in 1 Pet 3:20,21
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

It seems you are reading v.20 quite WRONG. As if Peter wrote "saved BY water". In fact, the 8 in the ark were saved (delivered, rescued) FROM the literal water that destroyed the entire human race at that time.

Haven't you realized that the entire human race were immersed (baptized) BY water? Did that save anyone? Of course not. It KILLED all of them.

So, v.20 shows the NEED for being saved FROM the literal water that killed everyone else, Peter moves on to say that literal "water SYMBOLIZES baptism that now saves".

Did you get that? The water that killed the entire human race in Noah's day SYMBOLIZES baptism that saves.

So, it is CLEARLY NOT WATER BAPTISM that saves. So, what other kind of baptism is there? Glad you asked.

This is what John the Baptist said in Mark 1:8 - I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

There it is, in black and white. The baptism of the Holy Spirit corresponds to the sealing ministry of the Spirit in Eph 1:13,14.

The MOMENT a person believes in Christ for salvation, they ARE SEALED with the Spirit, and it is this sealing that John was referring to as a baptism.

Remember that the original meaning of the Greek word was associated with IDENTIFICATION, not just dunking in water. In fact, the word was used in reference to dying cloth. When dipped into dye (not just water) the cloth came out with a different color. iow, the cloth has a NEW IDENTITY.

So, Holy Spirit baptism (sealing with the Spirit) IDENTIFIES the believer as God's POSSESSION.

Eph 1-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

If this isn't enough to convince you of this, consider what Peter said about Cornelius and family when they believed the gospel he preached to them:

Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

The red words refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
The blue words clarify the DIFFERENCE between literal water baptism and baptism with the Spirit.
The green words show that the sealing ministry of the Spirit (baptism) is a gift.

In order to understand Paul's argument here and in 7:13-25 and 8:10-11, we must distinguish between "person" and "nature". Something you aren't willing to do.

At regeneration one is judicially acquitted and receives a new supernaturally endowed inclination to comply with God's mandates, and the Holy Spirit to empower to obey God.

But the regenerate man remains NO LESS the SAME METAPHYSICAL PERSON with the entire complex of attributes of fallen humanity in Adam. But you continue to deny this.

Therefore, though the "old man" has been crucified, he is still present in our flesh. But through the new life and Holy Spirit, he no longer controls the believer, though we can STiLL ALLOW him to (v.13).

That's the choice I keep referring to.

Let me be clear again. You are FREE from the PENALTY of sin. You ARE NOT free from the power of sin, because it's an on-going choice of whether to obey sin or righteousness. That is what Paul SAID in Rom 6:13 and 16.

Do you believe that Christ did NOT die for every sin?

Yep. Free from the PENALTY of sin. Not the practice of sin, as you wrongly opine.

This doesn't even make sense.

There is nothing "automatic" about the Christian life regarding practice. It's all about choice, which you keep denying.

Please quit misreading the Bible.

The down payment or GUARANTEE is my inheritance for the day of redemption.

What I possess right now is the gift of eternal life. Given to me by Jesus the MOMENT I put my faith in Him alone for salvation.

The only way you can be "free from the power of sin" is by being IN fellowship with the Lord through confession of your sins and by being filled with the Spirit.

There is no other way.

Your fantasy that this is an automatic thing for believers is refuted by all the commands in Scripture about not sinning.

No. Why should it? Didn't you bother to read and comprehend what their WHOLE basis of entering the kingdom was? Works. Just works. Nothing about believing at all.

In fact, this is PROVEN by the fact of what Jesus said to them: "I NEVER KNEW YOU".

That proves that this crowd NEVER believed in Him for salvation. They based entrance into the kingdom on what THEY did.

Couldn't be farther from the truth. They were unbelievers. Religious ones, to be sure.

And Jesus NEVER KNEW them. Period."


And there you go again. Including what I posted into your post which appears as what you posted.

Please figure out how to post properly.

And answer my questions, please.

I asked: "Do you believe that Christ did NOT die for every sin?"

 

[FreeGrace2]

A reminder of a past situation.
But clearly a differentiation form our status now. Walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

Back to the present...from where?
From a "reminder" of the past.

Paul is talking about the condition he was in prior to his conversion.
He is speaking as if he were still there...narrating the condition he was in while still in the flesh.
That is the present/historical form of writing.
In verse 23..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."...he cites the cause of his prior dilemma...the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:2 says he has been freed from this law, so it can't be a "present" condition.


You must decide whether Paul was freed, or not, from the law of sin and death, (Rom 7:23), by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:2)
Right now your answer seems to be "no".



Where then, if not Romans 6, does one find the information of how to kill the old man-flesh-affections-and lusts?


Which path do you think the real believers have chosen?
I have chosen righteousness...thanks be to God.


It isn't disagreeable at all.
Make the right choices! We have been given everything we need to do so.
Thanks be to God.


There is if the "water" is also the blood and Spirit of our Lord. (1 John 5:8)


Ever asked yourself how the resurrection plays into baptism?
Rom 6:4-5..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
Without the baptism, (burial), there is no resurrection with Christ.


Even a real baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38), is useless without a repentance from sin.


Who is our Arc?
How do we get in Him?

No other baptism is up for discussion.


I don't believe in putting new wine into old bottles.


I thank God for allowing me to see through the kind of smoke screen that allows so-called believers to continue in their bondage to sin.


Only folks who are free from sin are free from it's penalty.


Only for the ones one quits doing. (Rom 3:25)


Your doctrine frees men from the penalty of rebellion towards God, but no the rebellion.
Mine frees men from rebellion towards God and offers the payment for past sins.


Christ's sheep hear and obey ONLY His voice.
It is automatic for those washed by the blood of Christ and reborn of Godly seed.
We choose rightly all the time.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.
Those reborn of God's seed cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.


Why did your faith just quit at the door?


What does that say about sinning false believers?

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom.6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

It is quite obvious that you aren't even reading what I post. Or, if you do, you just dismiss my points.

That appears to me you are unable to refute my points, or even argue against them.

So you just keep on repeating your own points, which I DO address and explain how and why they are incorrect.

Since you don't seem actually interested in a real discussion, why should I continue with you?

 

[Phil W]

Right. Most of it is simply the present tense. Paul was describing his present struggle with his sinful nature.

He didn't need to struggle with a nature that had been crucified with Christ. (Rom 6:6)
The next verse is especially enlightening..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)
The old nature was gone, and a new one took it's place when he became a new creature. (2 Cor 5:17)

Apparently you have the false view that a believer is always walking in the Spirit. Why is that? Esp since we are commanded to walk by means of the Spirit and to be filled with the Spirit. So obviously it is not automatic or guaranteed.

I do believe that believers always walk in the Spirit, because, as you say, we are commanded to.
Believers obey the commands of God and of His disciples.
Besides, the "flesh" was crucified with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
We can't walk in it anymore...if you are a believer.

I asked: "Do you believe that Christ did NOT die for every sin?"

He "did NOT die" for sins that are never repented of.

 

[Phil W]

It is quite obvious that you aren't even reading what I post. Or, if you do, you just dismiss my points.
That appears to me you are unable to refute my points, or even argue against them.
So you just keep on repeating your own points, which I DO address and explain how and why they are incorrect.
Since you don't seem actually interested in a real discussion, why should I continue with you?

We are just echoing our points to no avail.
I will not give up a life with no sin and you won't give up a life with sin.
My old self, and it's nature, ere killed with Christ at my water baptism.
Your's lives on.
I walk in the Spirit all the time...thanks to the grace of God.
You split time between flesh and the Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He didn't need to struggle with a nature that had been crucified with Christ. (Rom 6:6)
The next verse is especially enlightening..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)
The old nature was gone, and a new one took it's place when he became a new creature. (2 Cor 5:17)

All you do is repeat your opinions. To be free from sin means to be free from the penalty of sin. But you never address this point. Just ignore it.

I do believe that believers always walk in the Spirit, because, as you say, we are commanded to.[/QUTE]
So, do you ALWAYS obey every command?

If the answer is "yes", then everyone will know the real you.

Believers obey the commands of God and of His disciples.

They are SUPPOSED TO. Or, as the Bible says, OUGHT TO.

1 Cor 8:2 - Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know.
2 Cor 2:7 - Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.
Eph 5:28 - In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
1 Tim 3:15 - if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
1 Tim 5:13 - Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also busybodies who talk nonsense, saying things they ought not to.
Heb 5:12 - In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
James 1:9 - Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position.
James 4:15 - Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.”
James 4:17 - If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
2 Pet 3:11 - Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
1 John 4:11 - Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
3 John 8 - We ought therefore to show hospitality to such people so that we may work together for the truth.

Either you are unfamiliar with what the Bible says, or you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the word "ought to".

Besides, the "flesh" was crucified with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
We can't walk in it anymore...if you are a believer.

We OUGHT NOT to walk in it any more.

He "did NOT die" for sins that are never repented of.

Please cite any verse that says this. You keep getting away with making statements that are NOT biblical.

Jesus died for ALL sins. Period. Or would you like to argue with Hebrews??

Heb 10:10 - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:12 - But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
Heb 10:14 - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

I'd love to see how you 'handle' these verses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are just echoing our points to no avail.

I am defending the truth. You are defending your own opinions.

I will not give up a life with no sin and you won't give up a life with sin.

Nonsense. You are quite deceived.

My old self, and it's nature, ere killed with Christ at my water baptism.

I've proven from Scripture that water baptism doesn't SAVE anyone. It's a SYMBOL of the baptism that DOES SAVE, which you seem to be completely unaware of.

YI walk in the Spirit all the time...thanks to the grace of God.

Walking in the Spirit isn't automatic, and your claim here is just arrogance.

Basicaly, you are claiming you are above all other believers, since the Bible is clear about the FACT that believers NEED ongoing forgiveness and cleansing of sin.

You split time between flesh and the Spirit.

Every believer does. You just don't understand that.

And once you function from the flesh, there are specific biblically directed things that one must do to be filled with the Spirit. Since you don't know any of this, or have rejected the doctrine, it is way more likely that for all these years, you've been living in the power of your flesh, and ALL your righteousnesses are considered as "filthy rags" according to the Bible in Isa 64:6 - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

In the Hebrew language, "filthy rags" referred to used menstrual rags.

Don't kid yourself. Even unbelievers can and do live moral lives. But it's only just filthy rags to God.

 

[renniks]

Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way.

They tell us that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out from God’s book!

They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever “receive the grace of God in vain”; “bury his talents”; “neglect so great salvation”; trifle away “a day of grace“; “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow.

Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,” and strives no more, nor “deny the Lord that bought them”; nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth.

They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never green. John 15:1-6; and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb 10:38, 39; that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6; that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet. 2:20; that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!!

In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it.

May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!

(From: Fundamental Christian Theology: A Systematic Theology, A.M. Hills [C.J. Kinne, 1931], Vol. II, pp. 266-281; as quoted in The Believers Conditional Security, by Dan Corner, pp. 673, 674)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way.

The OP isn't about or from Calvinism.

They tell us that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out from God’s book!

Let's not get distracted by what Calvinism says.

They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever “receive the grace of God in vain”; “bury his talents”; “neglect so great salvation”; trifle away “a day of grace“; “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow.

Ditto.

Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,”

Can you support your opinion here by actual Scripture? I know both verses, and neither of them link one to the other. Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19.

So, explain from Scripture HOW they are (as you claim) linked and HOW one is subservient to the other.

They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never green. John 15:1-6; and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb 10:38, 39; that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6; that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet. 2:20; that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!!

This is just one of the errors of Calvinism. They erroneously believe that a true believer cannot cease to believe. In spite of the Scripture to the contrary.

In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it.

I don't care what they say.

May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!

How about some actual reasonable facts. Such as the OP. 1 Thess 5:10 says that regardless of lifestyle, the believer will be "with Him". And I proved that from a lot of different passages that use the same language to refer to lifestyle.

If you want to prove that salvation cannot be lost, then it should be easy to refute the OP. So far, you haven't even touched it.

(From: Fundamental Christian Theology: A Systematic Theology, A.M. Hills [C.J. Kinne, 1931], Vol. II, pp. 266-281; as quoted in The Believers Conditional Security, by Dan Corner, pp. 673, 674)

Rather than quoting or citing some "common tator" on what the Bible says, let's just focus on what the Bible itself says.

Oh, and, speaking about what the Bible actually says, there are no verses that actually say that salvation can be lost.

All the verses cited, quoted or given by Arminians regarding loss of salvation REQUIRE implication, assumption, and other tortuous maneuvers to get to that idea.

No verse SAYS in plain language that salvation can be lost.

otoh, there are many verses that speak plainly that salvation cannot be lost.

The OP is just one example, with other verses that support the example. And there are a number of other verses/passages that prove eternal security.

Please answer this question:

Do you believe that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish? yes or no.

 

[renniks]

Do you believe that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish? yes or no

We've already been through this... you're not open to hearing the truth.

 

[Phil W]

All you do is repeat your opinions. To be free from sin means to be free from the penalty of sin. But you never address this point. Just ignore it.

Please supply the verses you feel limit our freedom from sin to only the penalty for sin.
Frankly, the idea that we can commit sin without repercussions, and still be of the seed of God sickens me.
It is a strange idea that in actuality only frees the sacrificial animals from anything at all.

 

[Phil W]

I am defending the truth. You are defending your own opinions.

You are defending a "truth" that isn't the one Jesus said could make you free from committing sin...in John 8:32-34.

I've proven from Scripture that water baptism doesn't SAVE anyone. It's a SYMBOL of the baptism that DOES SAVE, which you seem to be completely unaware of.

Had you been able to prove it, I wouldn't try to defend Paul's teachings that water baptism kills the old man and buries him...with Christ.
Not would I quote the scripture that says we are raised with Christ from our death and burial with Him to walk in newness of life...with Christ. (Rom 6:3-6)
And of course I wouldn't be able to site the 7th verse of Romans 6 which says what the result of water baptism into Christ accomplishes..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Nor could I rely on the truth of Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Your version of the "truth" denies the death of the old man with continued assertions that parts of the old man survive.

Walking in the Spirit isn't automatic, and your claim here is just arrogance.

It is if the flesh has been crucified with Christ...at water baptism.

Basicaly, you are claiming you are above all other believers, since the Bible is clear about the FACT that believers NEED ongoing forgiveness and cleansing of sin.

I am only, as you put it, above false believers.
Those walking in the flesh but calling themselves children of God.

And once you function from the flesh, there are specific biblically directed things that one must do to be filled with the Spirit. Since you don't know any of this, or have rejected the doctrine, it is way more likely that for all these years, you've been living in the power of your flesh, and ALL your righteousnesses are considered as "filthy rags" according to the Bible in Isa 64:6 - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Thanks be to God for making a way to kill the flesh, be reborn of Godly seed that cannot bear evil fruit, and to walk in the Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanks be to God for allowing us to be of the son born of the freewoman instead of the bondwoman.
Of the promise or of the flesh?
We can be only from one or the other, but not both.

Don't kid yourself. Even unbelievers can and do live moral lives. But it's only just filthy rags to God.

There is the root of your "belief".
Unbelievers cannot live moral lives.
They don't believe God.

 

[bcbsr]

Logically it cannot be said that a person has been saved from ending up in hell if in fact his salvation in indeterminate until the judgement day. So Once Saved Always Saved is consistent with the rhetoric used in the Bible speaking of salvation have already be accomplished.

Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

Those who disagree with - need I say disbelieve - Jesus regarding eternal security are by definition "unbelievers" and as such are not yet qualified to be saved and as such they should rightly be uncertain of their fate. Those people tend to view the gospel through a salvation by works mindset.