Salvation Cannot be Lost

[Phil W]

Logically it cannot be said that a person has been saved from ending up in hell if in fact his salvation in indeterminate until the judgement day. So Once Saved Always Saved is consistent with the rhetoric used in the Bible speaking of salvation have already be accomplished.

Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

Those who disagree with - need I say disbelieve - Jesus regarding eternal security are by definition "unbelievers" and as such are not yet qualified to be saved and as such they should rightly be uncertain of their fate. Those people tend to view the gospel through a salvation by works mindset.

How is the belief of the "hearer" determined?
When will that happen?

 

[bcbsr]

How is the belief of the "hearer" determined?
When will that happen?

When a person believes.

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" Eph 1:13,14

 

[JLB777]

Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts the lifestyle of believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkenness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Now, some will argue that the word “sleep” in 1 Thess 5 refers to physical death, just as Paul used it in the previous chapter:

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It is clear that in the context of 1 Thess 4, “falling asleep” refers to physical death. But, in the next chapter, the context isn’t about who is physically alive vs who is physically dead, as claimed by Arminians, but rather, the context is about the believer’s lifestyle, as the comparisons clearly show.

However, here are passages that also use the word “sleep” as a metaphor for lifestyle:

Rom 13:11:14

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

So, how would an OSNAS type explain Paul’s command to ‘wake up from your slumber”, if sleeping is literal? Impossible.

Eph 5:12-16

12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. 14 This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” 15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.

It’s clear that waking up is in reference to one’s lifestyle; “how you live” from v.15.

Rev 3:1-3

1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Again, the context is clear: being “dead” or “alive” is in the context of lifestyle.

Rev 16:15

15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Again, "staying awake” is in reference to lifestyle (going naked and be exposed). By “staying awake”, we will “not go naked and be shamefully exposed”.

So, 1 Thess 5:9-10 is clear.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

God has destined the believer for salvation. Therefore, “whether we are awake or sleep”, the promise is CLEAR: “we WILL LIVE together with Him”.

This isn’t to defend a sinful lifestyle in any way. This is, rather, to defend the biblical teaching that one’s behavior/lifestyle doesn’t determine one’s eternal destiny.

One’s eternal destiny is sealed by whether or not one has put their trust in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, for the gift of eternal life.

On that basis alone, the believer shall NEVER perish.

John 10:28 - I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (believers) shall NEVER PERISH.

Those who are in Christ are saved.

Those who are removed from Christ, are no longer saved.


Jesus taught us we must REMAIN IN HIM.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how the scripture instructs us to REMAIN IN CHRIST.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


again



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



Why would anyone teach God’s people they can live in sin and still be saved?


WARNING TO ALL WHO ARE READING THIS THREAD.


DON’T BELIEVE ANYONE WHO TELLS YOU THAT BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS CAN LIVE IN SIN AND STILL BE SAVED.


PLEASE read and believe the scriptures.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this question, to get the thead back on track:
"Do you believe that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish? yes or no"

We've already been through this... you're not open to hearing the truth.

You just aren't open to answering questions that you don't like the obvious answer to.

 

[renniks]

I

I asked this question, to get the thead back on track:
"Do you believe that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish? yes or no"

You just aren't open to answering questions that you don't like the obvious answer to.

Have answered this question multiple times. Why waste my time?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
" To be free from sin means to be free from the penalty of sin. But you never address this point. Just ignore it."

Please supply the verses you feel limit our freedom from sin to only the penalty for sin.

Every verse that says we have been "freed from sin" mean that. And you haven't proven otherwise.

It dawned on me this am that 1 John 2:2 may well be the the proof that believers still sin. It's a conditional clause, beginning with "if". However, in the Greek, there are a number of "conditions".

In the 1sts class condition, the "if" means "if, and it's true".
In the 2nd class condition, the "if" means "if, but it's not true".
In the 3rd class condition, the "if" means "if, maybe you will and maybe you won't".

I need to study which conditional class the "if" is in that verse.

If it's a 1st class condition, your claim is toast.
But even if it's a 3rd class condition, doesn't mean my view is toast.

I WILL get back to you.

Nowever, in the meantime, please munch on this verse:
Heb 12:1 - Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

The red words apply to everyone, you included. This doesn't refer to any one specific sin, but the FACT that everyone has a sin that "so easily entangles".

But you just aren't aware of what the Bible teaches on this subject.

Frankly, the idea that we can commit sin without repercussions, and still be of the seed of God sickens me.

I'm sickened by believers who want to defend their own views but DO NOT even pay attention to the views of those they debate.

You added "without repercussions". Where do you get that piece of nonsense? Certainly not from me. Or is that just your imagination running wild again?

Heb 12:11 is quite clear: God's discipline towards His children is PAINFUL. Did you get that? How is that not "without repercussions"?

You need to familiarize yourself with Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are defending a "truth" that isn't the one Jesus said could make you free from committing sin...in John 8:32-34.

Except these verses don't even mention sin. It does mention TRUTH. Of which you seem unaware of.

Had you been able to prove it, I wouldn't try to defend Paul's teachings that water baptism kills the old man and buries him...with Christ.

You can't defend what you claim is Paul's teaching, because he never taught it.

And I showed clearly from 1 Pet 3:20-21 that it ISN'T water baptism that saves. In fact, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE minus 8 individuals were KILLED by literal water.

And v.21 says CLEARLY that it isn't literal water that saves. In fact, is says CLEARLY that literal water SYMBOLIZES baptism that saves.

This is a CLEAR reference to Holy Spirit baptism. Certainly NOT water baptism.

And of course I wouldn't be able to site the 7th verse of Romans 6 which says what the result of water baptism into Christ accomplishes..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

No it doesn't say that at all.

v.7 - because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Where do you see "baptism" here? Or in the previous verses?

3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

This is a direct reference to Holy Spirit baptism. Proved by the account of Cornelius.

Acts 10-
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Is it not clear that they received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were water baptized?

If still not clear, we also have Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

It couldn't be any more clear. When the Holy Spirit "came on them" Peter remembered what Jesus said about John's baptism and the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit.

It is if the flesh has been crucified with Christ...at water baptism.

See above for biblical truth.

There is the root of your "belief".
Unbelievers cannot live moral lives.
They don't believe God.

You've never met any Mormons, or orthodox Catholics, then. I guess I'm dealing with a very naive believer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Logically it cannot be said that a person has been saved from ending up in hell if in fact his salvation in indeterminate until the judgement day. So Once Saved Always Saved is consistent with the rhetoric used in the Bible speaking of salvation have already be accomplished.

Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

Those who disagree with - need I say disbelieve - Jesus regarding eternal security are by definition "unbelievers" and as such are not yet qualified to be saved and as such they should rightly be uncertain of their fate. Those people tend to view the gospel through a salvation by works mindset.

Indeed.

Some will argue that those who claim they are saved by believing in Christ BUT also argue that their salvation can be lost aren't really saved in the first place, since their so-called "faith" isn't really IN Christ at all, but how they live, etc.

iow, assurance (eternal security) is the essence of saving faith.

I would only add this: IF those Arminian types came to faith in Christ without any "caveats" about losing salvation, they are saved.

But, IF they came to "faith" in Christ understanding that they could lose their salvation by what they might do, aren't. Period.

Either one's faith is fully in Christ, or it includes other conditions. The ONLY saving faith is faith in what Christ did on your behalf.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those who are in Christ are saved.

Paul taught that those who HAVE (notice the tense) believed ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a GUARANTEE of our inheritance for the day of redemption.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

It is clear that your argument is with Scripture. Not me.

Those who are removed from Christ, are no longer saved.

If true, then John 10:28 and other verses are FALSE.

What is false is your claim.

Since you believe that salvation can be lost, how about just addressing the OP and taking my points one by one and trying to prove my points wrong.

Jesus taught us we must REMAIN IN HIM.

Actually, He taught aht in order to bear fruit, we must ABIDE in Him or REMAIN in Him.

But you have abused Scriptures by using "remain" and "abide" as being sealed. But since the seal is a GUARANTEE of our inheritance, your opinions cannot be true.

They are quite false.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Yep. No fruit bearing. Let's get the real context and leave your opinions out of it.

John 15-
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

All these red words refer to bearing fruit. The obvious subject of this passage.

Not "how to stay saved", as you incorrectly opine.

In fact, if your opinion about "staying saved" is in view, then the passage isn't teaching that any kind of sin will result in loss of salvation, but rather, LACK OF BEARING FRUIT.

Here is how the scripture instructs us to REMAIN IN CHRIST.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Correct. Which has zero to do with maintaining salvation.

Christ maintains our salvation. He is the author and finisher of our salvation.

Heb 12:2 - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

iow, He began it and He finishes it.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

I would add this:

He who says "I know Him", and does not believe His words, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

You have made it quite clear that you believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

Your opinions are in direct opposition to what Jesus said.

Why would anyone teach God’s people they can live in sin and still be saved?

Who teaches that?

WARNING TO ALL WHO ARE READING THIS THREAD.


DON’T BELIEVE ANYONE WHO TELLS YOU THAT BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS CAN LIVE IN SIN AND STILL BE SAVED.

Warning to all readers of this thread.

DO NOT believe anyone who claims that salvation can be lost. Such people DO NOT BELIEVE what Jesus taught. They are liars, according to Scripture.

PLEASE read and believe the scriptures.

I wish you would start.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this question, to get the thead back on track:
"Do you believe that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish? yes or no"

You just aren't open to answering questions that you don't like the obvious answer to.

I Have answered this question multiple times. Why waste my time?

Is repeating truth a "waste of time" for you? Is that how you view Scripture?

I sure don't. I'm always happy to repeat myself and what Scripture says.

But at least those who read this thread knows your view of things.

Sad.

Since you claim to have answered this question, could you at least cite the thread and post #?

btw, what's so hard about typing either "yes" or "no"?

How is that so hard to do?

The real issue that your "yes" answer to my question is in direct conflict with what Jesus SAID in John 10:28 and you just don't want to go on record as clearly showing that you are in direct conflict with what Jesus said.

So, there you have it.

 

[renniks]

Is repeating truth a "waste of time" for you? Is that how you view Scripture?

I sure don't. I'm always happy to repeat myself and what Scripture says.

Bully for you. And now you know why I don't want to bother, because you always,always twist my words in order to exhalt yourself. Just as you always pull one verse out of context and twist the rest to fit into your agenda. Throwing pearls before swine comes to mind....

 

[Phil W]

When a person believes.

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" Eph 1:13,14

I agree, but believers will manifest that belief with acts to the glory of God.
Like resisting temptation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bully for you. And now you know why I don't want to bother, because you always,always twist my words in order to exhalt yourself.

Just admit it. You don't want to answer a simple yes or no question because you KNOW that your answer will be in DIRECT CONFLICT with the clear words of Jesus Christ.

What other reason could there be?

I ask this simple question to show the GLARING conflict between OSNAS and what Jesus taught about eternal security.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost HAVE TO believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish. It's that simple.

And that idea flies directly in the face of what Jesus said.

Just as you always pull one verse out of context and twist the rest to fit into your agenda.

OK, let's see you back up this silly charge with actual evidence that my verse has been "pulled out of context" and then "twisted".

 

[FreeGrace2]

I agree, but believers will manifest that belief with acts to the glory of God.
Like resisting temptation.

Where does the Bible say that "believers WILL...".

Your view has a major conflict. otoh, you claim that you no longer ever sin. But otoh, you admit that believers can sin.

And most of your statements lean clearly towards the point that "true believers" don't sin.

 

[Phil W]

Except these verses (John 8:32-34) don't even mention sin. It does mention TRUTH. Of which you seem unaware of.
You can't defend what you claim is Paul's teaching, because he never taught it.

Yes, they do mention sin..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

And I showed clearly from 1 Pet 3:20-21 that it ISN'T water baptism that saves. In fact, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE minus 8 individuals were KILLED by literal water.
And v.21 says CLEARLY that it isn't literal water that saves. In fact, is says CLEARLY that literal water SYMBOLIZES baptism that saves.
This is a CLEAR reference to Holy Spirit baptism. Certainly NOT water baptism.

As baptism is a "like picture" to the Noah's arc, then it too cannot save...if your ideas are correct.
If one saved, the other saved.

No it doesn't say that at all.
v.7 - because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

That death occurs when we are "immersed" into Christ's death...by water baptism.
It is written..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)

Where do you see "baptism" here? Or in the previous verses?
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Verses 3, 4,& 5 are about water baptism.

This is a direct reference to Holy Spirit baptism. Proved by the account of Cornelius.

If it were about the baptism of the Holy Ghost, why did he immediately get water baptized afterwards?

If still not clear, we also have Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?"
It couldn't be any more clear. When the Holy Spirit "came on them" Peter remembered what Jesus said about John's baptism and the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit.

Cornelius' experience was a one-of-a-kind. It was God's way of showing the Jews that He had also accepted the Gentiles into the body of Christ.
Were your version of salvation correct, why didn't it work for the Samaritans, the Ethiopian eunuch, and the twelve at Ephesus?

You've never met any Mormons, or orthodox Catholics, then. I guess I'm dealing with a very naive believer.

I never met one that was free from sin.
Sin is the manifestation of unbelief.
The manifestation of your old nature...(which believers have seen slain at water baptism)...something you don't believe.

 

[renniks]

OK, let's see you back up this silly charge with actual evidence that my verse has been "pulled out of context" and then "twisted".

Been there done that... And so have several others. In fact I venture to say that most of the verses warning about loss of salvation of salvation have been already covered on this thread.
Rev. 3:5 ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels...
Hope you are an overcomer...

 

[Phil W]

Where does the Bible say that "believers WILL...".

Do you have some verse that says believers won't do things to glorify God?

Your view has a major conflict. otoh, you claim that you no longer ever sin. But otoh, you admit that believers can sin.

Sin is the manifestation of unbelief.

And most of your statements lean clearly towards the point that "true believers" don't sin.

Now you are getting it.
How can a sinful life manifest or glorify God?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, they do mention sin..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

There is nothing about sin in the fact that truth will make one free.

Then, the unbelieving Jews made clear what being "free" meant; "never in bondage to any man". however, they were quite delusional since they seemed to have forgotten the 430 years of Egyptian SLAVERY.

About as delusional as claiming that salvation can be lost.

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

OK, sin is mentioned here. It is quite puzzling to me that you just can't admit that being "free from sin" refers to being free from the penalty of sin.

Jesus paid the penalty of sin.

As baptism is a "like picture" to the Noah's arc, then it too cannot save...if your ideas are correct.

What??!! 1 Pet 3:20-21 makes a very clear statement that water baptism doesn't save. It only "removes dirt from the skin".

OK, let's go color coded, for simplicity.

20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The red words state that Noah + 7 were saved FROM literal water, by being IN the ark. Unlike the rest of humanity, who were KILLED by literal water. It's called drowning.

But, one could say they were "immersed" in literal water. Which is HOW they were killed. We can say the same thing about the Egyptian army, who were "immersed" in literal water and were KILLED, while the Jews passed THROUGH the water on DRY ground and were SAVED. Yet, Paul describes that event as a baptism.

1 Cor 10-
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

They were believers. Saved Jews.

Back to color coding of 1 Pet 3:20-21.

The blue words refer to literal H20 (water).
The green words show that Peter wasn't referring to literal water, but Spirit baptism, hich is the baptism that actually SAVES you.
The purple words clarifies that the literal water that removes dirt from the body is NOT the baptism that saves.

Any quetions?

If one saved, the other saved.

Hopefully my color coded explanation will clear up your confusion.

That death occurs when we are "immersed" into Christ's death...by water baptism.

Excuse me, but Christ's death occurred on a cross. And water baptism SYMBOLIZES our IDENTIFICATION with THAT death.

Your theory about being dunked in water is all wet.

It is written..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)

Are you aware of the subjunctive mood? "that we should not..."

If it were about the baptism of the Holy Ghost, why did he immediately get water baptized afterwards?

Obviously BECAUSE they are different. Why do you argue with the clarity of 1 Cor 11 and the order in ch 10?

Cornelius' experience was a one-of-a-kind. It was God's way of showing the Jews that He had also accepted the Gentiles into the body of Christ.

No, it is the modus operandi of NT salvation. Prior to Cornelius, Gentiles had to have hands laid on them before they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8

Were your version of salvation correct, why didn't it work for the Samaritans, the Ethiopian eunuch, and the twelve at Ephesus?

All part of the transition to the church age.

I never met one that was free from sin.

I never said unbelievers are free from sin.

Sin is the manifestation of unbelief.

How does this support your "sinless" claims?

The manifestation of your old nature...(which believers have seen slain at water baptism)...something you don't believe.

Because it doesn't happen. Only in the minds of those who have been misled.

Explain to me what you really mean by "slain at water baptism".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Only in the minds of those who have been misled.

hmmm.....

seems to be catching .... or at least widespread ....

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"OK, let's see you back up this silly charge with actual evidence that my verse has been "pulled out of context" and then "twisted"."

Been there done that

No you haven't. At least not with me. You are just dodging.

... And so have several others. In fact I venture to say that most of the verses warning about loss of salvation of salvation have been already covered on this thread.

Oh yes, many verses have been presented. Yet, NONE actually plainly state in clear words that salvation can be lost. All of them require a lot of assumption about what the words refer to (proving that the verses don't have clear words that state loss of salvation).

Rev. 3:5 ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels...
Hope you are an overcomer...

I'll bet you aren't aware of a literary technique called "litotes". And that's what we have in this verse. They are quite common in the NT.

"I will not erase his name..." is a litotes.

Litotes - Litotes is a figure of speech in which a negative statement is used to affirm a positive sentiment. For example, when asked how someone is doing, that person might respond, “I’m not bad.” In fact, this means that the person is doing fine or even quite well. The extent to which the litotes means the opposite is dependent on context. For example, the person saying “I’m not bad” may have recently gone through a divorce and is trying to reassure a friend that things are okay. On the other hand, this person may have just won the lottery and says, “I’m not bad” with a grin on his face, implying that things are, in fact, incredible.

Litotes examples have been found in many different languages and cultures. The usage of litotes was important in works such as the Bible, the Iliad, and in Old Norse sagas. Authors and speakers use litotes for many reasons, one of which is to display restraint or display modesty in describing something amazing rather than boasting of how incredible it is. http://www.literarydevices.com/litotes/

Below are a few examples of litotes from daily conversations:

• They do not seem the happiest couple around.
• The ice cream was not too bad.
• New York is not an ordinary city.
• Your comments on politics are not useless.
• You are not as young as you used to be.
• I cannot disagree with your point of view.
• William Shakespeare was not a bad playwright at all.
• He is not the cleverest person I have ever met.
• She is not unlike her mother.
• Ken Adams is not an ordinary man
• A million dollars is no small amount.
• You are not doing badly at all.
• Your apartment is not unclean.

Biblical examples of litotes:

Acts 19:24 - For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Diana, brought no small profit to the craftsmen. NKJV brought in a lot of business NIV

Acts 20:12 - And they brought the young man in alive, and they were not a little comforted. NKJV greatly comforted NIV

Acts 21:39 - Paul replied, “I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no obscure city. I beg you, permit me to speak to the people.”

Acts 27:20 - Now when neither sun nor stars appeared for many days, and no small tempest beat on us, all hope that we would be saved was finally given up. NKJV storm continued raging NIV

You see, I do support my points with evidence.