Salvation Cannot be Lost

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"Your" heaven will be full of "one day" believers?
Like Ananias and Sapphira, Judas Iscariot, and Simon of Samaria?

Yes, the false teachers and teachings of eternal security doctrines with all man's traditions and practices and beliefs associated with the heresy
is quite common - probably (obviously?) much more common than the one true Gospel in Jesus Christ.
Thus, the imagined 'heaven' will be full of people not actually saved - and on judgment day they are cast out, finally realizing the truth, but too late to be saved from destruction.

 

[Phil W]

That's not what he's talking about, obviously.

It seemed like as good of a "mistake" as any other.

 

[renniks]

It seemed like as good of a "mistake" as any other.

Let us try it in the King James:
For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.
How about the berean study Bible:
Surely there is no righteous man on earth who does good and never sins
Prefer the NIV?
Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.

I think we're starting to see a pattern. This is not about spilling milk or making a mistake in your checkbook. My bad for picking the one translation that substitutes"mistake" for "sin".

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't even think you read my posts. Because I never said I believed in numbered works of grace.

I never said that you said you believed. But you yourself SAID something a "second work of grace". If that isn't a numbering, I don't know what is.

So you see, I DO read your posts. And remember.

So, since you DO believe in a SECOND work of grace, just how many "works of grace" are there?

And again, where does the Bible make any mention of this so-called "second work of grace".

 

[Phil W]

philw,
1. The position you hold is the infallibility doctrine.
You can be infallible as long as you stay in the state of Grace 24/7.
This means you cannot sin.

It does seem reasonable that someone "staying in the state of grace" would be free from sin for as long as they "stayed".
But isn't staying in the state of grace our duty now?
And not something odd or out of left field?

2. You say you can believe in (having) eternal life today, and not being temped above what you can bear today, but may not know in a year or two; and you said it is not yours to declare, which implies somebody else could have a say so in you not believing in eternal life and not being tempted above....

Only I can say what I believe or disbelieve, so nobody else "has a say" in what I believe.

3. You say you cannot bear evil fruit as long as you believe that you are reborn of God’s seed.
The condition is believing, and if you don’t believe then you can sin and bear evil fruit. You would have to believe this is possible because you don’t know how how you will believe in a couple of years.

Isn't everything associated to salvation based on believing?
How many folks have started as believers but ended up going astray?
It is a possibility to leave God after belief...don't you think?
Ananias a Sapphira are examples of that.

4. Do folks ever lose their faith? Yes!
Peter lost faith in his denial of Christ. It doesn’t matter just because he was under the Old Covenant.
The New Covenant is established on Better promises that gives us greater access to God but it doesn’t make us unconditionally infallible.

Amen to that.
(BTW, Peter didn't have the gift of the Holy Ghost yet when he denied Christ three times)

5. If you believe in Ezekiel 18 then you believe that believers can sin and if they change masters and do not come back to Christ they will lose their salvation.

That is indeed what I believe.
We can only serve one master. (Matt 6:24)

6. Your assessment of Peter’s hypocrisy is not the context.
You are just trying to explain the real truth away.
Paul withstood him because he was wrong knowing that Peter was right in associating with the gentiles but when he was around the Jews he would’t associate with the Gentiles because of fear that the Jews Old Testament commandment of not associating with Gentiles would end up in a rebuke and excoriation by them.
They were under the New Covenant and the old covenant was abolished and replaced by the new Hebrews 8:6-7.
So Peter was hypocritical and did commit an act of sin.

Like you, I offered an opinion.
But you didn't factor in the "blame" he would have been accused of by the visiting Jews.
They would have seen him as hypocritical to their view of behavior.
He was in a no-win situation.
Don't you wonder what the Jews said when they actually DID see Peter with the Gentiles?
Did Paul have to explain again what he had said to Peter?

7. The winner runs the race when he crosses the finish line as Paul relates in Philippians.

Good point, and a point worth using against the OSAS POV.
They say they already won the race before it is over.

8. A truthful person is truthful but a truthful person could tell a lie.

Wouldn't that lie show he wasn't really a truthful person?

It is the difference between one being fallible and the nature of someone of being who they are.

A rephrase may be in order here.
You lost me.

God looks at the heart before the action.

God knows the heart BY THE ACTIONS.

Can one lose salvation by one sin? Yes by a death penalty sin or unforgiven sin.
But God also offers grace and forgiveness because he is our advocate.
He is our advocate because we are his children.

His children don't commit sin...or is 1 John 3;9 wrong?

He is an advocate for the sinner if they choose to believe in Christ as their Savior.
The Bible says he chastens us when we are not obeying him. If we are perfect without sin there is no need for chastening.

If you are obeying Him, there is no need for chastening.

9. Yes without fail.
You said failure would have admitted implies that you are relying on your doctrine and not life experience ‘s. Also, manifested and showing you would be the devils seed implies you are relying your doctrine and not personal experience.

In this particular case, I am relying on the truth of 1 John 3:10.

10. We are only christian’s if we obey God?
We are Christians if we obey God.
But God doesn’t do away with us as a Christian merely because we commit a sin or miss the mark. We may not being acting like a Christian but he doesn’t disown us. He never did with the disciples and the apostles after they missed the mark.
Have you made mistakes and what is the worst of them that you have made? Jerry Kelso

Sounds like you are "relying on YOUR doctrine" instead of what the bible says.
The Advocate it there, if one wants to become a Christian.
But He's not carrying a box of bandages for the falsely repentant.

 

[FreeGrace2]

freegrace2,

1. You didn’t mention one thing about the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit in that chapter. Why?
That is what I asked for. Try again. Jerry Kelso

lol. I didn't mention anything about the struggle between the flesh and Spirit in 1 Cor 15 only because Paul didn't.

He DID mention the struggle quite clearly in Gal 5:17.

 

[renniks]

So, since you DO believe in a SECOND work of grace, just how m

No, you don't read them obviously, but perhaps you skim them. I said the people in the churchs I grew up in believed in a second work of Grace. I specifically said that I believe sanctification is a gradual process.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Do you have any idea what a "policy statement" is? Seems not.

So, I'll give you an example. Restaurant restroom. Sign on inside of the door. Says:
Employees WILL wash their hands

Do you seriously think that means that every single employee will every single time wash their hands? Or maybe, just maybe, the sign is a policy statement about what employees are SUPPOSED TO DO.

Do you see the point?"

Revelations 21:7-8:Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Only the victorious will inherit the kingdom.

First, it is clear that you DON'T see the point. Why did you totally ignore the point about a policy statement, of which I gave a perfect example?

Second, since you have shifted gears and know you don't want to admit such a thing in the Bible as a policy statement, let's go ahead and talk about Rev 21:7-8.

What are the first 2 adjectives? cowardly and faithless. What do both of these adjectives speak to? Unbelief, that's what. A coward has no faith. And 'faithless' is self evident.

So, v.7-8 describe unbelievers, obviously.

And again, the Bible NEVER describes a former believer as an unbeliever. Ever.

They are described as apostates. But there is nothing in the Bible about someone who ceases to believe also ceases to be saved.

That is only an opinion, and an unbiblical one.

There are no qualifiers, about those that once had faith being exempt from the fire.

Not needed to justify your demands. If ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved, how come you have NEVER shared any verse that says so.

All you are doing is vainly trying to extrapolate your opinions into Scripture.

you aren't just saved by faith, as a one-time deal, you must continue to be faithful in order to attain victory and eternal life.[/QUOTE]
Once again I'll remind you that your opinion is unsubstantiated in Scripture.

And once again, I invite you to prove your opinion by quoting even just one verse that very plainly states your opinion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, you don't read them obviously, but perhaps you skim them. I said the people in the churchs I grew up in believed in a second work of Grace. I specifically said that I believe sanctification is a gradual process.

OK. I guess your mention of this so-called "second work of grace" led me to believe that you were in that group. You didn't specifically deny such an idea. So what was I to think?

But, never mind. OK, sanctification is a gradual process. I am curious about how one is sanctified. iow, what is involved, specifically?

Thanks.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"Do you not understand that people are guilty of many different sins? And yet you think that "one turn from sin" covers all the rest?
That is worse than naive."
Where does the Bible command believers to turn from "service to sin"? It does say to turn from sin. Nothing about "service to sin", as you opine.

Thanks for asking...I quote Jesus Christ from John 8:34..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
If one "turns from" sin, they have "turned from" service to sin.

Some have. What's your point?

If a man turns from sin, he turns from all sin.
Men don't "turn from" lying and adultery one week and theft another week later and then repent of covetousness a month later and drug abuse in six more months.
"Turn from sin" means all sin.

You want to see real common sense. Look no farther than Scripture.
1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Hmmm.
I thought I had already explained that John is addressing two very different kinds of walk/people in 1 John 1.
Those who walk in light-God, and those who walk in darkness/sin.
Some of the lines/verses are aimed at those who still walk in darkness...they are the ones who cannot say they have no sin.

Isn't that what you have been claiming? That you haven't sinned for a number of years?
1 John 1:10 - If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
Isn't that your claim as well?

All men have committed sin. No one can say they have never committed a sin.
This is another verse aimed at those who won't even admit there is such a thing as sin...those from 1 John 2:26...they walk in darkness

Of course, I know you'll spin these 2 verses as to referring to someone else, but not yourself. Yeah, sure.

Some folks do walk in the light/God, and have had all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
They confessed their prior sins and had all their unrighteousness washed away.
To deny that is to deny the effect of Jesus on the world.

 

[Phil W]

I never even hinted at such nonsense. But please show me, from my posts, where you got that silly idea.

I know you didn't.
You have already said you know that NOT all who say they have faith, actually do.

Sad that you keep inserting your opinions into Scripture.

Sad you can't apply reasoning to the scriptures I use.

To be "not of God" means "not of God's will for you". Or "not God's policy".

It can also mean NOT IN GOD.
God is the light we are exhorted to walk in in 1 John 1.
So "not in God" can also mean "not in the light".
Which leaves only darkness to be "in".

"My conclusion is based solidly supported by Scripture.
Jesus SAID that whoever believes POSSESSES (has) eternal life in John 5:24and 6:47.
The Beloved disciple said the same thing in 1 John 5:11 and 13.
Jesus said that recipients of eternal life (which MEANS those who have believed) shall never perish in John 10:28.
So my conclusions are biblical. Unlike yours.
In fact, none of the verses you've cited prove your opinions and claims.
Again, which verse SAYS THIS??? You don't have any such verse.
No, the OSAS doctrine is based solely on what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.
Since John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:11 and 13 make it clear that one who believes POSSESES (has) eternal life. This clearly means that they possess eternal life WHEN they first believe.
It is on that basis that all recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Period."
Why didn't you bother to address ANY of these verses and my conclusions?
Why didn't you even try to refute any of what I posted?
That would involve proving that my explanation of the verses I cited are wrong, and you've got the right explanation of what they mean.
Your move.

As I have already written, and you agreed, not all who say they believe actually do.
They are the ones who return to service to sin.[/QUOTE]

 

[Phil W]

Oh, I see now. Your theology includes some kind of contrived time table for who is saved.
So, where in the Bible is this notion taught? Please share.

The day of judgement is the deciding factor.
As Paul wrote, we are running a race, but only one is the winner.
If eternal life is "granted" at belief, the rest of our life can be based on debauchery without fear...right?

I KNOW from John 5:24 and 6:47 that as soon as a believer has believed, they possess eternal life. But please try to prove that wrong.

Their obedience to Christ will determine the truth of their "belief".

And I KNOW that those given eternal life shall never perish, from John 10:28.
But please try to prove that wrong as well.

No need to, as their belief will be manifested with obedience to God.

Well, now you're just comparing apples to oranges. Ananias and Sapphire and Simon were obviously believers, and A & S received God's discipline of physical death, which had a great effect on the other believers. Simon was SAID to have believed, so that proves he was saved. And yet we can all read what Peter said about him. He still had a problem and needed to confess his sins.

Their sins betrayed their unbelief.

But Judas was NEVER a believer. Proven from these verses:
John 6-
64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
v.64 clearly includes Judas, showing that he didn't believe and was the betrayer.

So what does that teach us?
That belief is based on action.
Those who love Christ above all else don't commit sin.

 

[Phil W]

Let us try it in the King James:
For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.
How about the berean study Bible:
Surely there is no righteous man on earth who does good and never sins
Prefer the NIV?
Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.
I think we're starting to see a pattern. This is not about spilling milk or making a mistake in your checkbook. My bad for picking the one translation that substitutes"mistake" for "sin".

Were those verse true, then Jesus was a sinner...right?
Fact is, they were all taken from OT writings by Paul to emphasize to the Jews that they too needed a Savior, and the Law made no difference in that need.

 

[jerry kelso]

It is clear that Paul had Rom 8:13 in mind in that verse.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.


Paul understood the fact that each believer has a choice; to live according to the flesh (human sinful nature) or or according to the Spirit (new, born again nature).

This is how he described the struggle:

Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

freegrace,

The post of #305 shows you did think Paul was talking about the struggle between the flesh vs. the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 15:31; I die daily by using Romans 8:13 and Galatians 5:17.
This was in response to my question of what you thought I die daily meant in post #304. Jerry Kelso

 

[renniks]

OK. I guess your mention of this so-called "second work of grace" led me to believe that you were in that group. You didn't specifically deny such an idea. So what was I to think?

But, never mind. OK, sanctification is a gradual process. I am curious about how one is sanctified. iow, what is involved, specifically?

Thanks.

As the verses I quoted suggest, it's a journey of learning to hear the Spirit's voice and being more confirmed into Christ's image. Also known as obedience. Or becoming more holy. For some people it certainly seems to happen more quickly than for others. I'm a slower learner, it seems.

 

[renniks]

Were those verse true, then Jesus was a sinner...right?
Fact is, they were all taken from OT writings by Paul to emphasize to the Jews that they too needed a Savior, and the Law made no difference in that need.

Ot writings by Paul? It's from Ecclesiastes. Jesus was and is God, so, of course would not be included. If we say we don't sin, we are not being truthful.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks for asking...I quote Jesus Christ from John 8:34..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
If one "turns from" sin, they have "turned from" service to sin.

What you continue to fail to understand is your sinful nature still resides in you and gets its way at times, at least. But you deny that.

And the Bible refutes your opinions.

1 John 1-
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

You are NOT without sin. So you have deceived yourself.
Your claim that you have not sinned for x years is refuted by v.10.

Your claims are sin.

But, there is a remedy for your sin. As there is for all sinners.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

But it takes a bit of humility to admit our own sins and failures, huh.

If a man turns from sin, he turns from all sin.

Once again, the Bible refutes your opinions.

James 2:11 - For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

So you see, one can turn from adultery, but not murder.

Sin comes in quite a lot of packages. There is no doubt from Scripture that you haven't turned from all of them.

Men don't "turn from" lying and adultery one week and theft another week later and then repent of covetousness a month later and drug abuse in six more months.
"Turn from sin" means all sin.

On what basis do you make this claim?

Hmmm.
I thought I had already explained that John is addressing two very different kinds of walk/people in 1 John 1.

Sure you did. Those IN fellowship with the Lord, and those OUT of fellowship with the Lord.

Those who walk in light-God, and those who walk in darkness/sin.

Yeah, that's what I said.

Some of the lines/verses are aimed at those who still walk in darkness...they are the ones who cannot say they have no sin.

You're way over-simplyfing things. And it seems you don't even understand what fellowship is.

Consider a marriage. The couple at any given point are either IN fellowship with each other or they are NOT. What causes loss of fellowship? When one offends the other.

This is really a moment by moment situation. There is no such thing as a once for all "turn from sin" as if that covers every possible temptation.

My guess is that you are quite naive about what sin even is.

All men have committed sin. No one can say they have never committed a sin.
This is another verse aimed at those who won't even admit there is such a thing as sin...those from 1 John 2:26...they walk in darkness

Any time a believer sins, at that moment they are walking in darkness.

Some folks do walk in the light/God, and have had all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.

This would be unbelievers of course.

They confessed their prior sins and had all their unrighteousness washed away.
To deny that is to deny the effect of Jesus on the world.

No, you are confused. Confession of sin on a daily (moment by moment) basis is parallel to washing feet in Jesus' day.

Recall John 13? And Peter not wanting Jesus to wash his feet? When Jesus said He must wash Peter's feet or Peter would have "no part" with Him. He was referring to fellowship, not relationship, as in salvation, because Jesus had just said that Peter was clean, meaning saved. Recall that Peter's response to "having no part" with Jesus was, "well then, give me a bath". But Peter was already clean. He only needed his feet washed.

Of course, Jesus was making a point about humillity, since feet washing in that day was done by the lowliest of servants. And the worst job of all.

In Jesus' day, people walked barefoot or in open sandals. On the same paths as the domesticated animals walked. Oh yeah, donkeys, goats, sheep, etc. You get the picture.

Imagine walking in dog poop and then entering the house of a very good friend, to have some fellowship. How much fellowship do you think you can have with your friend, whose house you just stunk up and messed his floors??? No fellowship.

That is how God views our sins. Like very offensive poop. So Jesus used foot washing as an analogy to confession, ala 1 John 1:9. We receive cleansing when we confess our sins.

But you are naively unaware of your own sins.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Sad that you keep inserting your opinions into Scripture."

Sad you can't apply reasoning to the scriptures I use.

I do. That's why I have to keep correcting your errors.

I said:
"To be "not of God" means "not of God's will for you". Or "not God's policy"."

It can also mean NOT IN GOD.

To be clear, "not in God's policy" would be more accurate. As I already noted.

God is the light we are exhorted to walk in in 1 John 1.
So "not in God" can also mean "not in the light".
Which leaves only darkness to be "in".

Right. Either in fellowship or out of fellowship. How much dog poop have you walked in today?

As I have already written, and you agreed, not all who say they believe actually do.

And I never bother dealing with them.

They are the ones who return to service to sin.

All humans sin. The Bible makes that clear. We are commanded to NOT SIN, but we have a remedy for when we do. Confession of sin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Oh, I see now. Your theology includes some kind of contrived time table for who is saved.
So, where in the Bible is this notion taught? Please share."

The day of judgement is the deciding factor.

Where is such a verse, please?

As Paul wrote, we are running a race, but only one is the winner.
If eternal life is "granted" at belief, the rest of our life can be based on debauchery without fear...right?

Are you kidding? Are you really not aware of the doctrine of divine discipline, which is painful, btw. Heb 12:11.

Twice, Paul noted believers who were turned over to Satan. One for the destruction of the flesh. That's physical death at the hands of Satan, who knows how to torture better than the Roman army. The other was to "learn not to blaspheme".

Does that sound like "debauchery without fear"?

Their obedience to Christ will determine the truth of their "belief".

You are just denying what the Bible clearly teaches.

The MOMENT one believes, they possess eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

Recipients of eternal life (which is WHEN they believe) shall never perish. John 10:28

What you haven't done is prove to me that these verses don't teach what I claim they teach.

 

[FreeGrace2]

freegrace,

The post of #305 shows you did think Paul was talking about the struggle between the flesh vs. the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 15:31; I die daily by using Romans 8:13 and Galatians 5:17.
This was in response to my question of what you thought I die daily meant in post #304. Jerry Kelso

OK, this is post #474. What is your point at this point?

Just tell me what you think Paul was referring to by his phrase "I die daily".