Salvation Cannot be Lost

[Paul McGraw]

FreeGrace2 - no I was not entirely convinced prior to today. As I previously pointed out, there are verses that, in my opinion, can honestly be used to support either position. My understanding as of now is that a Christian can lose their salvation, but I think it requires an extraordinary act of rebellion to do so. The perfect example would be a very well known Christian who denies Jesus before men, thus grieving the Holy Spirit.

(Jesus speaking) “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:27-31

The context of this passage is important. Read the full chapter. Jesus is the Good Shepherd, unlike Satan who is a thief and has bad intentions. It is the desire of the Good Shepherd to take care of His sheep. Jesus knows His sheep, He calls them and they follow Him. As you know, there are several passages where we are told that those who have fallen away will no longer be known to Jesus. And if Jesus no longer knows the sheep, they will not be called out by Him, and they have no promise of eternal life.

Next the sheep must follow Him. That would not have been included in the scripture if it was not important. What about the sheep who do not follow him? They no longer have the assurance of eternal life and they will perish.

The good news of the passage is that Satan can not prevail against our Saviour. Satan can not force Jesus to give up even a single sheep. Praise God, He is sovereign. He is all-powerful. Only Jesus saves, and only Jesus will decide who is saved and who is not saved.

 

[Paul McGraw]

Heads up, folks!
He has had John 10:27-28 explained to him many times over the years!
Both verses ... 27 and 28.

I am probably wasting my time, but I have tried to share my understanding of this verse. Even if I disagree with FreeGrace2 about his conclusions, He is my Christian brother, and it does not seem right to get angry or ignore a brother, just because they have a different understanding.

 

[Phil W]

I asked:
"Didn't you admit you sin?"
Apparently you were more successful than the greatest theologian of all time, the apostle Paul, who penned Romans 6 and 7 and wrote it in the present tense.

Rom 7 is Paul's remembrance of life in the flesh, as a Pharisitical Jew.
As Rom 6 included how to kill the flesh, it would seem apparent that he is no longer encumbered by it while writing the next chapter.
Rom 8 goes on to explain walking in the Spirit.
Rom 7 is an interlude of sorts.

Yup. Can't do it with more than faith, either.

How are you using that faith?
I used that faith to kill the old man at water baptism and to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
I continue to use it to find the escapes God provides to escape temptations. (1 Cor 10:13)

You posted:
"Followed by a water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Do these things and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
That is what Peter taught on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38."
I responded with:
"I see you don't believe Gal 3:2,5 or the account of Cornelius the Centurion in Acts 10."

The gift of the Holy Spirit is based on faith in Christ, not water baptism.

I do agree with Gal 3:2,5, but I'm not confusing the works of the law with exercising my faith in repentance from sin and baptism for the remission of past sins. Not to mention enduring till the end.
Cornelius' situation was a one of a kind event meant to convince the Jews who came with Peter that God had also accepted the Gentiles.

BTW, you mentioned faith "in Christ", so I must ask how you believe one get's "in Christ"?

 

[renniks]

On that basis alone, the believer shall NEVER perish.

I agree. But a believer can become an unbeliever and perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Heads up, folks!
He has had John 10:27-28 explained to him many times over the years!
Both verses ... 27 and 28.

Heads up, folks!

I've never met an Arminian who has comprehended John 10:27 and 28 properly. They see conditions beyond being given eternal life in order to never perish.

But the words are crystal clear.

Jesus gives believers eternal life and they shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 - no I was not entirely convinced prior to today. As I previously pointed out, there are verses that, in my opinion, can honestly be used to support either position.

Do you realize that would mean that the Bible is internally contradicted?

Are you comfortable with that conundrum?

My understanding as of now is that a Christian can lose their salvation, but I think it requires an extraordinary act of rebellion to do so.

You haven't yet responded to my request for your take on John 10:28. If a believer can lose salvation, then what Jesus cannot be true.

So, please explain how a believer can lose salvation perish and what Jesus said still be true.

The perfect example would be a very well known Christian who denies Jesus before men, thus grieving the Holy Spirit.

How is this an example of losing salvation? It's only an example of a believer becoming an idiot.

(Jesus speaking) “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:27-31

The context of this passage is important. Read the full chapter.

I have, monthly, for well over a decade. And v.9 is the key to who are Jesus' sheep; believers. Those who "enter through the gate", the 'gate' being a metaphor for Jesus Himself.

So when He mentions His sheep in v.27, he is describing WHAT His sheep do, or what they should be doing. iow, He is stating a policy for His sheep.

v.27 is NOT a condition for being one of His sheep, as many Arminians claim. It's a simple statement, either describing WHAT His sheep do, or what they should do as a policy statement.

As you know, there are several passages where we are told that those who have fallen away will no longer be known to Jesus.

What verse/passage are you referring to here? Several? I'm fully aware of Matt 7:21-23 and it's very clear that they were NEVER believers. The crowds' whole appeal for entering the kingdom was based on what THEY DID. Nothing about what He did. And so what did He call them? Workers of unrighteousness. That's WHY He never knew them. They were NEVER believers in the first place.

It is utterly impossible for Jesus to ever utter "I never knew you" to anyone who as EVER believed. That doesn't make any sense.

And if Jesus no longer knows the sheep, they will not be called out by Him, and they have no promise of eternal life.

The error here is thinking that Jesus would "no longer know any of His sheep". That's simply a false assumption, and NOT backed up with Scripture.

Next the sheep must follow Him.

Please show me any verse that says one must follow Him to be saved. There are many verses that tell us that one must believe to be saved. There are NONE that say we must follow Him to be saved.

The point is that ALL believers ARE SUPPOSED to follow Him.

That would not have been included in the scripture if it was not important.

I need to see these "several passages".

What about the sheep who do not follow him?

They are still His sheep, but out of fellowship with Him, and unable to bear fruit for Him.

And they will face divine discipline in this life and loss of eternal rewards in the next life.

They no longer have the assurance of eternal life and they will perish.

That is an opinion. Please provide clear Scripture that says this.

The good news of the passage is that Satan can not prevail against our Saviour. Satan can not force Jesus to give up even a single sheep. Praise God, He is sovereign. He is all-powerful. Only Jesus saves, and only Jesus will decide who is saved and who is not saved.

And the Bible tells us very plainly who Jesus will save.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

BCsenior said: ↑
Heads up, folks!
He has had John 10:27-28 explained to him many times over the years!
Both verses ... 27 and 28.

I am probably wasting my time, but I have tried to share my understanding of this verse.

Until you explain your understanding of John 10:27,28, yes, you will be wasting your time.

Because those verses are most clear and straightforward verses in the Bible on eternal security. I would like to see where your hangup is regarding these verses.

Even if I disagree with FreeGrace2 about his conclusions, He is my Christian brother, and it does not seem right to get angry or ignore a brother, just because they have a different understanding.

Of course there's no reason to get angry. The issue is what does God's Word say about one's security. Is it conditional on behavior, etc, or is it unconditional and irrevocable?

Rom 11:29 tells us that God's call and gifts are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rom 7 is Paul's remembrance of life in the flesh, as a Pharisitical Jew.
As Rom 6 included how to kill the flesh, it would seem apparent that he is no longer encumbered by it while writing the next chapter.
Rom 8 goes on to explain walking in the Spirit.
Rom 7 is an interlude of sorts.

Did you pay attention to the verb tenses. All of it was written in the present tense. So it's NOT a "remembrance" of anything.

I do agree with Gal 3:2,5, but I'm not confusing the works of the law with exercising my faith in repentance from sin and baptism for the remission of past sins.

How can you say you agree with Gal 3:2 and 5 after using Acts 2:38 for how to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Cornelius' situation was a one of a kind event meant to convince the Jews who came with Peter that God had also accepted the Gentiles.

So what? They ALREADY received the Holy Spirit on the BASIS of faith, not water baptism. They were dunked AFTER they had already received the Spirit. That was my point, which is seems you have missed.

BTW, you mentioned faith "in Christ", so I must ask how you believe one get's "in Christ"?

Great question!

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Another passage that guarantees eternal security, based on the sealing ministry of the Spirit.

To answer your question specifically, one "gets in Christ" by the Holy Spirit. "you also were included IN CHRIST when you believed". That answers your question directly.

One becomes IN CHRIST when they believe in Him for salvation. No other way.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
On that basis alone, the believer shall NEVER perish.

I agree. But a believer can become an unbeliever and perish.

Then you don't agree. It isn't the continuation of faith that is the basis of never perishing. John 10:28 is quite clear; the believer shall never perish because they have been given eternal life.

But don't take my word for this. Consider these 2 verses:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Do you see the point? Condemnation is for those who NEVER believed. There are no verses about former believers being condemned.

 

[renniks]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
On that basis alone, the believer shall NEVER perish.

Then you don't agree. It isn't the continuation of faith that is the basis of never perishing. John 10:28 is quite clear; the believer shall never perish because they have been given eternal life.

But don't take my word for this. Consider these 2 verses:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Do you see the point? Condemnation is for those who NEVER believed. There are no verses about former believers being condemned.

It's not clear to me at all. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, whoever doesn't believe is condemned. Correct, a believer shall never perish, as long as he remains a believer.
Just as Jesus said "remain in me and I will remain in you." Now that is clear! The condition is to remain a believer.

 

[Paul McGraw]

FreeGrace2 - You keep asking over and over for verses, I give you verses, and then you disregard the plain meaning of the text to try to make it fit your own ideas.

John 10:27-31 if you read the plain meaning of the text it tells us Jesus must call the sheep and they must follow Him, then they receive the reward of eternal life. There is nothing here about some kind of discipline. If you are referring to purgatory, I do not believe that to be a Biblical concept.

All of the Bible is true. We may not understand it, but if we seek the meaning that unites all of God's teaching we will be on the right path. John 10:27-31 proves that to be called a believer who will receive eternity, requires Jesus must call that believer (sheep), and that believer (sheep) must follow Him. The meaning is clear. This one verse that you continuously cite, proves beyond even the shadow of a doubt, that your understanding of this issue is flawed.

The once saved always saved teaching is dangerous and potentially fatal. Giving a false assurance that a person can commit any and every sin, including denial of our Savior to men, and still enter Heaven, could lead many into eternal damnation.

John chapter 10 can also be read as a warning that there will be false shepherds who will lead the sheep into disaster.

 

[BCsenior]

I am probably wasting my time, but I have tried to share my understanding of this verse. Even if I disagree with FreeGrace2 about his conclusions, He is my Christian brother, and it does not seem right to get angry or ignore a brother, just because they have a different understanding.

No comment ... Carry on.

 

[BCsenior]

BTW, you (the FG2) mentioned faith "in Christ",
so I must ask how you believe one gets "in Christ"?

Getting in Christ is a whole different deal than Staying in Christ.
Are the following "believers" still "in Christ"?
-- not practicing righteousness
-- practicing habitual (unrepentant) sin
-- not abiding in Jesus
-- not bearing fruit
-- not loving fellow believers
-- fell away from the faith
-- estranged from Christ
-- fell from grace
-- drew back to perdition
-- not allowed into the Kingdom of God/Christ
-- not allowed into the city of New Jerusalem
-- blotted out of the Book of Life
-- has unforgiveness towards someone
-- hates someone (analgous to murder)
... my memory fails me for more!

If anyone would care to see NT verses
for any of the above, please just ask.

 

[Paul McGraw]

Getting in Christ is a whole different deal than Staying in Christ.
Are the following "believers" still "in Christ"?
-- not practicing righteousness
-- practicing habitual (unrepentant) sin
-- not abiding in Jesus
-- not bearing fruit
-- not loving fellow believers
-- fell away from the faith
-- estranged from Christ
-- fell from grace
-- drew back to perdition
-- not allowed into the Kingdom of God/Christ
-- not allowed into the city of New Jerusalem
-- blotted out of the Book of Life
-- has unforgiveness towards someone
-- hates someone (analgous to murder)
... my memory fails me for more!

If anyone would care to see NT verses
for any of the above, please just ask.

Almost all of these called to mind a specific verse for me. I drew a blank on "drew back to perdition" so I looked it up. Hebrews 10:39 correct? I also read the surrounding chapter to make sure I understood it in context.

This is yet another powerful teaching that we must persevere or lose our salvation. Thank you for sharing these.

I worry sometimes that I may not have a correct understanding of some particular point of theology. Discussing this one issue here and carefully studying the relevant verses has helped me see it very clearly now.

 

[BCsenior]

Discussing this one issue here and carefully studying the relevant verses has helped me see it very clearly now.

All I can say is, "Praise The Lord!" ...

... that you are different ...

Many on Christian forums are not open to learn spiritual Truth,
but are here to defend a false doctrine or two learned in the churches.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's not clear to me at all. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, whoever doesn't believe is condemned.

When the Bible refers to an "unbeliever", it means one who NEVER believed. How do I know this? Because of these 2 verses:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12- and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The point of these 2 verses is that those who NEVER believed will be condemned.

The words "have not believed" means "who never believed".

If you disagree, please explain why.

Correct, a believer shall never perish, as long as he remains a believer.

The 2 verses above refute your notion.

Just as Jesus said "remain in me and I will remain in you." Now that is clear! The condition is to remain a believer.

Do you really believe that the Bible is telling us that we are in charge of our salvation? For that is exactly what your statement concludes.

Who is in whose hands in John 10:28 and 29? The believer (the one who has believed) is in God's hands. That means He is in charge of our salvation; not us.

Don't think for a moment that you have the power to undo God's work in you. That would be blasphemous and quite arrogant.

When you believed, God regenerated you. You CANNOT undo that. He gave you eternal life. You CANNOT give that away or lose or misplace it. He made you a new creature. You CANNOT go back to being your original creature.

The speaks of 2 kinds of people; the saved are called believers. The unsaved are called unbelievers.

Even when Jesus noted some who "believed for a while" and then fell away, they weren't called "former believers" or "no longer believers".

The plain fact from the 2 verses above is that only those who never believed will be condemned.

And don't forget that Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

 

[renniks]

When the Bible refers to an "unbeliever", it means one who NEVER believed. How do I know this? Because of these 2 verses:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12- and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The point of these 2 verses is that those who NEVER believed will be condemned.

The words "have not believed" means "who never believed".

If you disagree, please explain why.


The 2 verses above refute your notion.


Do you really believe that the Bible is telling us that we are in charge of our salvation? For that is exactly what your statement concludes.

Who is in whose hands in John 10:28 and 29? The believer (the one who has believed) is in God's hands. That means He is in charge of our salvation; not us.

Don't think for a moment that you have the power to undo God's work in you. That would be blasphemous and quite arrogant.

When you believed, God regenerated you. You CANNOT undo that. He gave you eternal life. You CANNOT give that away or lose or misplace it. He made you a new creature. You CANNOT go back to being your original creature.

The speaks of 2 kinds of people; the saved are called believers. The unsaved are called unbelievers.

Even when Jesus noted some who "believed for a while" and then fell away, they weren't called "former believers" or "no longer believers".

The plain fact from the 2 verses above is that only those who never believed will be condemned.

And don't forget that Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

Again, those two verses do not "refute my notion." They don't say that anyone who has ever believed will remain a believer, which is what you need them to say to support your position.
Anyone who knows Jesus and who follows Him is a believer – and no one can snatch a believer out of Jesus' hands or the Father's hands. However, "if we deny Him, He will deny us, . . .for He cannot deny Himself" (2Tim.2:11-13). As for John 10:27-30, if we stop knowing Him and stop following Him, we, by our own self-willed choice, stop being His sheep. No one has "snatched us out of His hands" in that case; rather, we have abandoned Him.

Passages demonstrating that salvation is conditional upon continued faith:

You were once alienated from God – your very thoughts were hostile towards Him and your deeds were evil. Yet God has now made peace with you through the death of Christ in His physical body so that you may stand before Him as holy, without blemish and free from accusation – [this you will do] if you remain solidly grounded and firmly fixed in the faith, and un-moved from your hope in the gospel . . .
Colossians 1:21-23

Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with Him, we will also live with Him; if we persevere, we will also reign with Him. If we disown Him, He will also disown us; If we are faithless, He will remain faithful, for He cannot disown Himself.
2nd Timothy 2:11-13

It is through this gospel that you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you – otherwise you have believed in vain.
1st Corinthians 15:2

We are of [Christ's] household, if we hold fast to our courage and confidence in this hope.
Hebrews 3:6

For we have all become partners of Christ, if we hold fast to our original conviction firmly to the end.
Hebrews 3:14

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 - You keep asking over and over for verses, I give you verses, and then you disregard the plain meaning of the text to try to make it fit your own ideas.

Please give me an example of my disrregarding the "plain meaning of the text". I know how this goes. A branch thrown into the fire (John 15) "obviously" means a believer being thrown into hell. Nonsense. Give me 1 example of my disregard, and I'll show you WHY the verse doesn't say what you claim it says.

John 10:27-31 if you read the plain meaning of the text it tells us Jesus must call the sheep and they must follow Him, then they receive the reward of eternal life.

Not only does the text NOT say such a thing, the wording is obviously different than your rendition.

v.27 is a statement of what His sheep DO. Or it's a policy statement of what His sheep SHOUD do. But NOWHERE in the verse is there any conditional clause linking being His sheep by DOING any of the things listed.

v.28 is a straightforward statement about recipients of eternal life; obviously referring to His sheep from v.27. And the FACT is that those who receive eternal life shall never perish.

This is THE MOST PLAIN statement in the Bible about eternal security. It is just amazing how Arminians try to twist the verse completely away from the clear and plain words.

There is nothing here about some kind of discipline. If you are referring to purgatory, I do not believe that to be a Biblical concept.

I never suggested that v.27-31 speak of any kind of discipline. My focus is on v.27 and 28.

Here's the verses that you cited:
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,

Again, v.27 is a statement about what His sheep DO, or a policy statement about what they SHOULD do.

v.28 says recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

This means that anyone who believes that a believer (recipient of eternal life) can perish is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to Jesus' words.

v.28-29 also state eternal security. The believer (His sheep) are in God's and His hand, and no one (meaning no person or angel) can remove the believer from God's hand.

btw, the words "no one" obviously includes the believer himself. So you DO NOT HAVE THE POWER to remove yourself out of God's hand. That's called eternal security.

All of the Bible is true.

Of course it is. But you don't believe that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. You add conditions to recipients of eternal life before you will claim that they shall never perish. But Jesus did not.

So before you claim to believe all of the Bible, or that all of it is true, consider your view that salvation can be lost. It is in direct opposition to the Bible.

We may not understand it, but if we seek the meaning that unites all of God's teaching we will be on the right path.

And there still are no verses that ouright and plainly state that salvation can be lost.

John 10:27-31 proves that to be called a believer who will receive eternity, requires Jesus must call that believer (sheep), and that believer (sheep) must follow Him. The meaning is clear.

Even unbelievers who read these 2 verses will disagree with you, even though they won't believe the verse either. There are NO CONDITIONS listed or stated in either verse.

Do you understand what a conditional clause is?

This one verse that you continuously cite, proves beyond even the shadow of a doubt, that your understanding of this issue is flawed.

v.28 says recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Who are "recipients"? Those to whom Jesus gives eternal life. As noted in the first part of the verse: "I GIVE THEM eternal life".

The result of being given eternal life is: "and they shall never perish".

The once saved always saved teaching is dangerous and potentially fatal.

Tell that to Jesus, because that's exactly what He taught in John 10:28. Not only that, but He taught the very same thing in John 5:24.

Giving a false assurance that a person can commit any and every sin, including denial of our Savior to men, and still enter Heaven, could lead many into eternal damnation.

Apparently you don't believe that Jesus died for every sin then. Is that correct?

If you believe that He did, and the Bible says that He did, how can any sin undo what He did? Sure sounds as though you think there are sins greater than His ability to pay for.

John chapter 10 can also be read as a warning that there will be false shepherds who will lead the sheep into disaster.

OK. But that doesn't change the obviously clear meaning of the result of being given eternal life.

v.28 states the RESULT of being given eternal life; shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Getting in Christ is a whole different deal than Staying in Christ.
Are the following "believers" still "in Christ"?
-- not practicing righteousness
-- practicing habitual (unrepentant) sin
-- not abiding in Jesus
-- not bearing fruit
-- not loving fellow believers
-- fell away from the faith
-- estranged from Christ
-- fell from grace
-- drew back to perdition
-- not allowed into the Kingdom of God/Christ
-- not allowed into the city of New Jerusalem
-- blotted out of the Book of Life
-- has unforgiveness towards someone
-- hates someone (analgous to murder)
... my memory fails me for more!

If anyone would care to see NT verses
for any of the above, please just ask.

This post demonstrates that this poster does not believe Eph 1:13,14. Those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit are guaranteed an inheritance for the day of redemption.

How is that so unclear to our Arminian friends? Or do they just not want to believe what is being taught?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Almost all of these called to mind a specific verse for me. I drew a blank on "drew back to perdition" so I looked it up. Hebrews 10:39 correct? I also read the surrounding chapter to make sure I understood it in context.

This is yet another powerful teaching that we must persevere or lose our salvation. Thank you for sharing these.

Yet, NONE of the verses that BCsenior mentioned says anything about losing salvation.

That idea MUST be read into the text, for it isn't there.

I worry sometimes that I may not have a correct understanding of some particular point of theology. Discussing this one issue here and carefully studying the relevant verses has helped me see it very clearly now.

Fact check: do you believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, or not?

I'll remind you of what Jesus said:

I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.