Salvation Cannot be Lost

FreeGrace2

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Ooops, typo.
I meant..."If you believe you are or have been saved, whY would you ever forsake the God that saved you?
I just can't fathom that."
Then you don't believe that the Bible clearly teaches that saved people STILL have their original human nature. Or temptation.

Folks that really 'believe' that Jesus died for their sins quit committing sin.
Scripture refutes your statement.

If they don't quit, they show that Jesus' suffering and death meant nothing to them.
How does that manifest 'belief'?
It doesn't. But Jesus' promise STILL holds true. Those given eternal life by Jesus shall never perish.

False belief led them to use the name of Jesus Christ without ever really believing

If they had ever known Jesus, they would have quit committing iniquity.
False believers, sinners, are everywhere.
Let's not try to just "explain it all away".

Here are more examples of high level believers who sinned:

Gal 2:11-13
11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

I don't expect any response from you, though.

And I know you'll not address this verse either:

2 Cor 13:11 - Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration (perfection), encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

Why the need to encourage believers with this IF believers don't sin?

No, thankfully I am not.
The old man was killed and buried with Christ, and a new creature was raised with Christ to walk in "newness" of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
Not "oldness" of life.
This just fails to understand or distinguish between literal and figure of speech.

By the same reasoning, that being they are of the same seed, your point proves that sinners are not born of God.
Almost NO evangelical believer today believes that believers don't sin any more.

So your answer is that they never really believed, huh.

1 John 3:8-10 proves it.
No it doesn't. I've explained it before. It refers to the FACT that the believer's NEW NATURE does not sin. And Scripture is filled with clear evidence that believers STILL sin, so that comes from the original sinful nature.

Children of the devil are the ones committing sin.
You calling Peter and Barnabas children of the devil? That's just nuts.

They have no eternal life awaiting them.
Jesus said those who believe possess eternal life.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Your views don't line up with Scripture.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"This is the works that Paul was alluding to:
Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast."
Doesn't it seem odd to you that he refers to no works at all here?
Wrong. Paul DID refer to "works" here. In v.9, where he said that salvation is by grace through faith. "NOT by works", meaning that salvation is NOT BY works.

I guess the works he commands in Eph 4 are NOT included in the 2:8-9 observation.
With spiritual discernment, one realizes the point of Eph 4 isn't about salvation but rather rewards and blessings for the faithful believer.

These manifestations of Christianity..."This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
A perfect example of what believers are SUPPOSED TO DO: to NOT walk (live) like the unbelievers (Gentiles). If your theory were correct, Paul's statement would be unnecessary and silly.

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Describes how unbelievers think.

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
iow, none of these things are what believers should do.

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Clearly a command to change their lifestyle. Go back to v.17. What does "henceforth" mean? It means "no longer" as other translations render it.

iow, they need to stop living like unbelievers. Very clear.

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
All of this proves that your theory is wrong. There would be no need for these commands if believers don't sin. Period.

Are these the works you are referring to?
First, ch 4 isn't about getting saved, or keeping salvation. If you think so, you need to prove it with evidence.

Second, the word 'works' without the descriptor "of the Law" means any human efforts.

So 2:9 proves that works of any kind are NOT required for salvation.
 
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FreeGrace2

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You said yourself. works are required through repentance.
I NEVER EVER said works are required for salvation. You are terribly misinformed, or you aren't understanding anything I post.

Go read Romans and Hebrews again. I've already posted relevant passages.
I'm very familiar with them. I read them monthly, along with the rest of all the epistles. Romans is about justification (salvation) by faith. Hebrews is about eternal reward, not salvation.

Your flawed, arrogant theology puts you in grave danger of being cut off form the lord...
This is pitiful. What is flawee and arrogant is believing that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, when Jesus said they shall never perish.

And you can't reconcile your views with what Jesus said.
 
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Phil W

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Then you don't believe that the Bible clearly teaches that saved people STILL have their original human nature. Or temptation.
I don't believe the bible teaches anything of the kind.
It teaches that the new creature has left everything behind and all things are made new...(2 Cor 5:17)..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
To have the old anything would deny the rebirth as new creatures.

Here are more examples of high level believers who sinned:
Gal 2:11-13
11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
I don't expect any response from you, though.
What sin was committed by Peter in his attempt to make the visiting Jews comfortable?
Doesn't Peter have the right to eat with whomever he chooses?
The only "bad" thing he did was lend credence to the Law's separation of Jew and Gentile.
Keep in mind, the Jews were still very adherent to the Law's precepts.

And I know you'll not address this verse either:
2 Cor 13:11 - Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration (perfection), encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
Why the need to encourage believers with this IF believers don't sin?
Encouragement keeps the fact they are 'lovers not fighters' fresh in their minds.
Like "Look both ways before crossing the street".
Refreshers only strengthen us.

Almost NO evangelical believer today believes that believers don't sin any more.
Almost NO evangelical "believers" will see the kingdom of God.
Those who commit sin are the servants of sin, and Jesus said no man can serve two masters.
No servant of sin loves God above all else.

Jesus said those who believe possess eternal life.
Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.
Your views don't line up with Scripture.
What is the proof of "belief"?
It certainly isn't lying, stealing, coveting, committing adultery, addiction to drugs, swearing, blasphemy, hate bigotry, racism, or turning God's word into permission to commit sin.
 
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Phil W

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I said:
"This is the works that Paul was alluding to:
Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Wrong. Paul DID refer to "works" here. In v.9, where he said that salvation is by grace through faith. "NOT by works", meaning that salvation is NOT BY works.
What works?
I know it is the works of the Mosaic Law, but what works do you refer to as unnecessary for salvation?

With spiritual discernment, one realizes the point of Eph 4 isn't about salvation but rather rewards and blessings for the faithful believer.
Keep fooling yourself with self inserted fulfillment of your own doctrines.

A perfect example of what believers are SUPPOSED TO DO: to NOT walk (live) like the unbelievers (Gentiles). If your theory were correct, Paul's statement would be unnecessary and silly.
Believers are SUPPOSED TO DO the "unnecessary"?
I sure thank God for the clarity to NOT believe your doctrine.

First, ch 4 isn't about getting saved, or keeping salvation. If you think so, you need to prove it with evidence.
It is about being found worthy of eternal life at the final judgement.

Second, the word 'works' without the descriptor "of the Law" means any human efforts.
It is, as Paul stated several times, the "works" of the Mosaic Law.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I don't believe the bible teaches anything of the kind.
Doesn't matter what you believe. I've given plenty of evidence from Scripture, but your mind has already been made up.

It teaches that the new creature has left everything behind and all things are made new...(2 Cor 5:17)...
Actually, it says nothing about "leaving everything behind". You're just making up more stuff.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
To have the old anything would deny the rebirth as new creatures.
No it wouldn't. And all the verses I've shared PROVE that we still struggle with our sin nature.

What sin was committed by Peter in his attempt to make the visiting Jews comfortable?
You mean you didn't bother reading the verses? Paul called him a hypocrite. I guess that's a sin you consider a sin. Is it because you are one?

Doesn't Peter have the right to eat with whomever he chooses?
Oh for heaven's sake. Read the passage.

The only "bad" thing he did was lend credence to the Law's separation of Jew and Gentile.
Do you suppose you are smarter than Paul was?

Encouragement keeps the fact they are 'lovers not fighters' fresh in their minds.
Way to defend the sin of hypocrisy!!

Almost NO evangelical "believers" will see the kingdom of God.
Says one who doesn't believe what Jesus said so very clearly in John 10:28.

What is the proof of "belief"?
The ONLY proof is the indwelling Holy Spirit.
 
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FreeGrace2

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What works?
I know it is the works of the Mosaic Law, but what works do you refer to as unnecessary for salvation?
any works of any kind. Period.

And you CANNOT provide ANY verse that includes ANY kind of works that are necessary for salvation.

Believers are SUPPOSED TO DO the "unnecessary"?
I think you are just trying to be difficult.

For salvation, works are UNNECESSARY.
For eternal reward and blessings during one's life, works will be rewarded. As such, works are NECESSARY.

I sure thank God for the clarity to NOT believe your doctrine.
Said the one who doesn't believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

It is about being found worthy of eternal life at the final judgement.
This just highlights your unfamiliarity with who will live with God forever.

The whole crowd in Matt 7:21-23 thought they would enter the kingdom on the basis of their works. And they were deceived. Have you ever thought that you might be IN that crowd?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Salvation requires repentance. Repentance requires work.
Please consult a Greek lexicon. The Greek word means to "change the mind". That's not a work. It's a change in belief.

Salvation requires works as well as Faith...
You need to read Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5. You're not even close to biblical truth.
 
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S.ilvio

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Having written that, I can no longer imagine you are telling me the truth about anything
So despite being shown with crystal clarity that we are all in peril of being cut off, you think you can sin away with no potential risk of losing Salvation...
 
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SkyWriting

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Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts the lifestyle of believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkenness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Now, some will argue that the word “sleep” in 1 Thess 5 refers to physical death, just as Paul used it in the previous chapter:

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It is clear that in the context of 1 Thess 4, “falling asleep” refers to physical death. But, in the next chapter, the context isn’t about who is physically alive vs who is physically dead, as claimed by Arminians, but rather, the context is about the believer’s lifestyle, as the comparisons clearly show.

However, here are passages that also use the word “sleep” as a metaphor for lifestyle:

Rom 13:11:14

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

So, how would an OSNAS type explain Paul’s command to ‘wake up from your slumber”, if sleeping is literal? Impossible.

Eph 5:12-16

12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. 14 This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” 15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.

It’s clear that waking up is in reference to one’s lifestyle; “how you live” from v.15.

Rev 3:1-3

1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Again, the context is clear: being “dead” or “alive” is in the context of lifestyle.

Rev 16:15

15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Again, "staying awake” is in reference to lifestyle (going naked and be exposed). By “staying awake”, we will “not go naked and be shamefully exposed”.

So, 1 Thess 5:9-10 is clear.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

God has destined the believer for salvation. Therefore, “whether we are awake or sleep”, the promise is CLEAR: “we WILL LIVE together with Him”.

This isn’t to defend a sinful lifestyle in any way. This is, rather, to defend the biblical teaching that one’s behavior/lifestyle doesn’t determine one’s eternal destiny.

One’s eternal destiny is sealed by whether or not one has put their trust in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, for the gift of eternal life.

On that basis alone, the believer shall NEVER perish.

John 10:28 - I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (believers) shall NEVER PERISH.

God sees our eternal life as one event, for those who are saved.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Having written that, I can no longer imagine you are telling me the truth about anything
Since you have already made clear your opinion that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, IN SPITE of the fact that Jesus recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH, I feel the very same about yourself.

Why should anyone believe or accept anything you post given your opposition to what Jesus said?
 
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FreeGrace2

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So despite being shown with crystal clarity that we are all in peril of being cut off, you think you can sin away with no potential risk of losing Salvation...
I've beeen shown absolutely NO CLARITY that salvation can be in peril for anything a believer might do.

In fact, I've shown, with absolute CLARITY that recipients of eternal life, which is given the MOMENT one believes, shall never perish. Because Jesus Himself said so.

So, please don't lecture me on what is CRYSAL CLEAR.
 
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Phil W

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So despite being shown with crystal clarity that we are all in peril of being cut off, you think you can sin away with no potential risk of losing Salvation...
Absolutely not.
I don't see how you got that idea from me.
My POV is that those born of God will never commit sin, as His seed remains in us.
If a supposed "son of God" does commit sin, he manifests that he was never in Christ to begin with.
His sheep follow Him.
They will be the receivers of eternal life at the final judgement.
 
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Phil W

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Since you have already made clear your opinion that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, IN SPITE of the fact that Jesus recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH, I feel the very same about yourself.
The only reason you came to your conclusion on the subject is because you ignored the preceding verse...(John 10:27).
Those NOT following Jesus are NOT His sheep, and they receive nothing.
 
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S.ilvio

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Absolutely not.
I don't see how you got that idea from me.
My POV is that those born of God will never commit sin, as His seed remains in us.
If a supposed "son of God" does commit sin, he manifests that he was never in Christ to begin with.
His sheep follow Him.
They will be the receivers of eternal life at the final judgement.
First of all apologies. I quoted the wrong post.

However to suggest any believer cannot commit sin is a folly and patently untrue

We all sin. Every day. Twice on a Sunday too.

The miracle of Salvation is the eternal Grace God offers us sinners that if we confess and show true repentance we can be with Him on Judgement Day...
 
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S.ilvio

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I've beeen shown absolutely NO CLARITY that salvation can be in peril for anything a believer might do.

In fact, I've shown, with absolute CLARITY that recipients of eternal life, which is given the MOMENT one believes, shall never perish. Because Jesus Himself said so.

So, please don't lecture me on what is CRYSAL CLEAR.
So you can shoot churches up with no repentance and be assured of your Salvation?

Sums up your strange Theology right there...
 
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FreeGrace2

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My POV is that those born of God will never commit sin, as His seed remains in us.
The Bible refutes your notions quite clearly.

Rom 6-
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.

2 Cor 12:21 - I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

Eph 4:26 - “In your anger do not sin” : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,

1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 John 2:1 - My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

These are verses TO believers ABOUT believers. Told to "not sin". The command PROVES not only the ability to sin, but that believers DO sin.

If a supposed "son of God" does commit sin, he manifests that he was never in Christ to begin with.
Please quote or at least cite any Scripture that says this.

His sheep follow Him.
Ever heard of a "policy statement". It's what people are SUPPOSED TO DO. Not at all what every person does.

Or do you want to argue that God doesn't have any policy statements about behavior?

They will be the receivers of eternal life at the final judgement.
Again, Scripture refutes your claim.

Jesus taught that eternal life is currently possessed WHEN a person believes. John 5;24, 6:47.

Then Jesus taught that those given eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28
 
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FreeGrace2

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The only reason you came to your conclusion on the subject is because you ignored the preceding verse...(John 10:27).
Those NOT following Jesus are NOT His sheep, and they receive nothing.
Do you really not grasp the concept of "conditional clauses" and how they MUST BE worded in order to BE a conditional clause?

Ever heard of "IF this...THEN that...."?

Other words include "unless", "only", "in order that", etc.

Where do you find ANY conditional wording in either v.27 or v.28.

You are guilty of ABUSING the English language with your baseless claim.

v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO, or OUGHT TO DO. No conditional clause wording in the verse at all.

v.28 is a flat statement of the result of being given eternal life. The recipient shall never perish.

And you cannnot prove otherwise. Your claim is bogus.
 
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