Salvation Cannot be Lost

[Phil W]

I said:
Still can't see your contradiction, huh. If you CAN'T sin, then there is no reason for any command to stop sinning. And the Bible commands believers to stop sinning.

And the believers obey...after which they are non-sinners.

Does God quit with what He began in you? If so, you are going to have to provide any verse/passage that in plain language says so.

He will if you quit on Him.

In the meantime, here is a verse for you to meditate on:
Phil 1:6 - being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Please explain how the red words don't teach eternal security.

In context, it is Paul's hope for the Philippians, not a statement of fact.

Apparently you either failed to read my posts about God's painful discipline, or you have simply rejected it out of hand. Doesn't matter. They mean everything. They explain how to be blessed in this life and rewarded in the next. Or lose both.

As you admitted...it doesn't matter.

Is your lifestyle bigger than God?
Are you bigger than God?

Nope, as we are one.

More contradiction. The commands mean nothing to one who can't sin.

Do you see and recognize it as a command?
Do you still commit sin"
The command is for those outside of Christ.
There is no sin in Christ.

Now this is quite interesting. I quoted 2 verses, Eph 1:13,14.
So, what are you talking about with this "my version" stuff?? There is no version here. Just the Word of God, plainly.

"Plainly" influenced by someone or thing that has twisted the scripture to prove a doctrine which is counter to Christ.

Can you exegete these 2 verses for me? I can't imagine what you think they mean.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:13-14) KJV...
I'ld love to. but you will just trash it in order to keep sinners "in Christ".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eternal life will be received at the final judgement.

You cannot prove your opinion. The Bible teaches very clearly that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN a person believes in Christ.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Here is the point. The MOMENT a person believes, they ARE a believer. And both verses SAY that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life.

But, if these 2 aren't enough to convince you, here are more:

1 John 5;11, 13
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Please notice the PAST TENSE in the red words. John was addressing believers.

v.13 was written to affirm the fact that believers HAVE eternal life.

There are plenty of "conditions, starting with "hearing Him".

Of course a person has to hear the promise BEFORE they can believe the promise.

His sheep know His voice and "follow Him".

John 10:27 is a description of what His sheep DO, or OUGHT TO DO.

What v.27 is NOT is a condition for never perishing. Such a claim is bogus.

Agreed, His sheep won't follow Him if they have no faith He is their Shepherd.

Then they aren't even "His sheep". Let's just stick with the one who ARE His sheep, who already HAVE believed in Christ, and HAVE BEEN GIVEN the gift of eternal life, which it seems you still don't believe.

In spite of very clear Scripture.

There are, however, words describing who His sheep are...those that follow Him.

Have you ever heard of a "policy statement"? Do you know that is?

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
That eliminates those who won't listen or hear His voice, and those who won't follow Him.

Of course it does. Such aren't even His sheep in the first place.

But notice that the hearing and following are about His sheep.

Do you see any kind of language that shows that hearing and following are required in order to become His sheep? Of course you don't.

You seem to be having trouble determining who the sheep are.

This is beyond absurd. Of course I know who Jesus sheep are. They are believers. Jesus made that clear in John 10:9. By "entering through Him", using a gate as a metaphor for placing faith IN Him.

Sheep from other herds or shepherds wont follow Christ.

They sure don't and won't.

So why even bother to say so?

The subject here is Jesus' sheep. That means believers. And the "company policy" is that they hear and follow Him.

But v.28 tells us the result of being given eternal life. They shall never perish.

Here's a challenge for you. Explain how being given eternal life DOES NOT RESULT in never perishing.

Can you do that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

And the believers obey...after which they are non-sinners.

Still can't prove your opinion, though. And I've shown plenty of Scripture that refutes your opinion.

I asked this:
"Does God quit with what He began in you? If so, you are going to have to provide any verse/passage that in plain language says so."

He will if you quit on Him.

And...you don't have any verse. No evidence at all for your opinions. If you want to convince me, you will need more than your opinions. You will need Scripture.

Then I said this:
""In the meantime, here is a verse for you to meditate on:

Phil 1:6 - being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Please explain how the red words don't teach eternal security."

In context, it is Paul's hope for the Philippians, not a statement of fact.

This statement certainly is NOT a statement of fact. It's just another of your opinions.

Where do you get the idea that Phil 1:6 is just Paul's "hope" for his audience????

He said nothing about hope here. He was making a statement of FACT. In FACT, he was CONFIDENT of that FACT. The One who "began a good work" in them "will carry it on TO COMPLETION until the day of Christ Jesus".

I really question your reading skills.

I said this:
"Apparently you either failed to read my posts about God's painful discipline, or you have simply rejected it out of hand. Doesn't matter. They mean everything. They explain how to be blessed in this life and rewarded in the next. Or lose both."

As you admitted...it doesn't matter.

This ridiculous response is about a dishonest as it comes. What "doesn't matter" is whether you failed to read what I posted about God's discipline or you have just rejected it out of hand. I wasn't "admitting" to anything, so your insinuations just show your own deviousness and deception. You really think that isn't sinful???

Then I asked:
"Is your lifestyle bigger than God?
Are you bigger than God?"

Nope, as we are one.

What kind of answer is this? All along you have been trying to make the point that what WE do can result in UN-doing what God has done in saving us.

That shows that we mere frail humans can UN-do what God has done.

So, explain how my claim about your view doesn't really UN-do what God has done.

Otherwise, your REAL answer to my question is this: YES, I am bigger than God, and by MY OWN actions/deeds/etc I can UN-do what He has done for me.

That's the root problem with your opinions. They lead to that conclusion, which is unmitigated arrogance.

btw, arrogance is a sin. Seems you're racking up quite a bunch of them, in this post alone.

So much for your self proclaimed sinless ness.

I said:
"More contradiction. The commands mean nothing to one who can't sin."

Do you see and recognize it as a command?

Doesn't matter what I see. The Greek IS a command. It's called imperative mood.

Do you still commit sin"

Every believer does. As you're rather nicely demonstrated in this post.

The command is for those outside of Christ.
There is no sin in Christ.

Again, just more opinions, without any evidence from Scripture.

But, please explain why God would command unbelievers to stop sinning? What would be the point? And explain these commands would even get to unbelievers, since Paul was writing to congregations of believers.

"Plainly" influenced by someone or thing that has twisted the scripture to prove a doctrine which is counter to Christ.

All of your opinions are counter to Christ.

I quoted:
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:13-14) KJV...

I'ld love to. but you will just trash it in order to keep sinners "in Christ".

No, you really WOULDN'T love to, as you falsely claim. If you really did "love to", you would have.

But, instead, like so many before you, you stoop to that cheap shot of judging others, which the Bible COMMANDS AGAINST, but mr. Perfect You doesn't bother obeying commands, because he has convinced himself that he is above the commands of God by deluding himself that all commands are for unbelievers only.

Those who CAN defend their theology, DO defend it.

Those who CAN'T, well, can't. Therefore, they DON'T.

Like yourself.

But I'll tell you what I DO "trash". Twisting of Scripture, false doctrines, etc.

So if that's how you'll treat Eph 1:13,14, then, yes, I WILL trash it. By revealing the falseness of your twisting of Scripture.

Actually, the verses don't even need explanation. I think most everyone understands the word "guarantee". And what is guaranteed.

So, save your trashing of the verses for someone else. I knew you'd not provide any explanation of the verses, because you CAN'T do it without admitting eternal security.

 

[S.ilvio]

You said:
" So according to your Theology. You can now down 100 folks in a Church today, with no repentance and still have your Salvation assured???"

Ah, nothing like some clarity. Thanks for the correction.

btw, what's to twist here? Just because you don't seem to like God's grace, why would I even want to "twist" my way out of His grace promises.

Speaking of which, I came across another eternal security verse in church today. What did you learn in church today?

Rm 4:16 - Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

OK, define/explain what "the promise" is. That is, from the context that begins back in ch 3.

Next, explain how this promise, which comes by faith, and by grace, is GUARANTEED to all Abraham's offspring.

Oh, and explain who Abraham's offspring is. The green words.

Hold on. Let's try again. Nica and slowly.

You claim you are assured on Salvation.

Does that mean if you unrepentently mow down 100 people in Church, your Salvation is secure??

 

[FreeGrace2]

You claim you are assured on Salvation.

Well, Jesus claims it. I just believe it.

Does that mean if you unrepentently mow down 100 people in Church, your Salvation is secure??

Jesus SAID that those He gives eternal life to shall never perish.

What does that mean to you?

For me, it means once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

Are you able to explain John 10:28 in an honest way that show that He never promised eternal security just on the basis of being given eternal life?

Thanks.

 

[Phil W]

You cannot prove your opinion. The Bible teaches very clearly that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN a person believes in Christ.

That is your belief, but not the belief Jesus held. (Matt 7:21-22)
Folks who do miracles and cast out devils in Jesus' name are believers...right?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The KJV of the bible says..."Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
Your version has substituted "judged" for the word "condemned".
Really a subversive attempt to fool folks into neglecting their faith.
We will all face a day of judgement, as Peter wrote..."For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17)
Judgement is coming.
If men remain faithful to the Lord till death, they will see eternal life.
In fact, it has already begun for those who remain in Christ from their baptism into Him till they are judged.
So, in sense, you are right.

Here is the point. The MOMENT a person believes, they ARE a believer. And both verses SAY that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life.

If they hold that belief throughout their life, you are correct.

John 10:27 is a description of what His sheep DO, or OUGHT TO DO.
What v.27 is NOT is a condition for never perishing. Such a claim is bogus.

As you admit that His sheep follow Him, we are in agreement.
Of course if the sheep quit following Him they were not His sheep.
They manifest that they were not believers to begin with.

Here's a challenge for you. Explain how being given eternal life DOES NOT RESULT in never perishing.
Can you do that?

At the last day, the day of the Lord's judgement, all will get the chance to find out if their names are in the book of life...or not.
What can cause their names to be removed from the book of life?
Sin, the manifestation of not believing that God is to be obeyed at any cost.

 

[S.ilvio]

Well, Jesus claims it. I just believe it.


Jesus SAID that those He gives eternal life to shall never perish.

What does that mean to you?

For me, it means once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

Are you able to explain John 10:28 in an honest way that show that He never promised eternal security just on the basis of being given eternal life?

Thanks.

There you go again. Twisting logic on its head again in order to suit your error strewn Theology.

You do realise some abortionists say the very same thing?

But I'll not let you off that easy. Talk me through this please

You go on an unrepentant killing spree in your Church. Killing 100 men, women and children.

How does Judgement Day work out for you..?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"You cannot prove your opinion. The Bible teaches very clearly that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN a person believes in Christ."

That is your belief, but not the belief Jesus held. (Matt 7:21-22)

It sure is. In John 5:24 and 6:47 Jesus SAID those who believe HAVE (as in currently possess) eternal life. Your view is contrary to what Jesus said.

Then, Jesus said those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe) shall never perish. That is a straightforward statement of eternal security. I am sorry you refuse to admit the obvious.

btw, Matt 7:21-23 isn't even about former believers. It's about those who never believed, which is probably why you never include v.23, where Jesus makes that clear by His statement, "I never knew you". If any of them had EVER believed, He could NOT have said that to them.

Folks who do miracles and cast out devils in Jesus' name are believers...right?

No. There is nothing in the Bible that makes such a statement. In fact, there are many statements in the Bible about miracles being performed by Satan.

It is extremely naive to assume your claim is correct.

The KJV of the bible says..."Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
Your version has substituted "judged" for the word "condemned".

Are you arguing that these words mean something different?? Where do you get your information from?

From biblehub.com -

New International Version
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

New Living Translation
“I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

English Standard Version
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Berean Study Bible
Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

Berean Literal Bible
Truly, truly, I say to you that the one hearing My word and believing the Onehaving sent Me, he has eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

New King James Version
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

King James Bible
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Christian Standard Bible
"Truly I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.

Contemporary English Version
I tell you for certain that everyone who hears my message and has faith in the one who sent me has eternal life and will never be condemned. They have already gone from death to life.

Good News Translation
"I am telling you the truth: those who hear my words and believe in him who sent me have eternal life. They will not be judged, but have already passed from death to life.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.

International Standard Version
"Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, whoever hears what I say and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged, but has passed from death to life.

NET Bible
"I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.

New Heart English Bible
"Truly, truly, I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Timeless truth I speak to you: “Whoever hears my word and trusts in him who has sent me has the eternal Life, and he comes not into judgment, but he moves from death into Life.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I can guarantee this truth: Those who listen to what I say and believe in the one who sent me will have eternal life. They won't be judged because they have already passed from death to life.

New American Standard 1977
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has eternal life and shall not come into judgment but has passed from death unto life.

King James 2000 Bible
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

American King James Version
Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life.

American Standard Version
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.

Darby Bible Translation
Verily, verily, I say unto you, that he that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me, has life eternal, and does not come into judgment, but is passed out of death into life.

English Revised Version
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

Webster's Bible Translation
Verily, verily, I say to you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but hath passed from death to life.

Weymouth New Testament
"In most solemn truth I tell you that he who listens to my teaching and believes Him who sent me, has the Life of the Ages, and does not come under judgement, but has passed over out of death into Life.

World English Bible
"Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Young's Literal Translation
'Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.

judgment = 22

condemnation = 7

So what's your point? They obviously mean the same thing.

Really a subversive attempt to fool folks into neglecting their faith.

Go ahead and explain your kooky comment.

We will all face a day of judgement, as Peter wrote..."For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17)
Judgement is coming.

Yep. God will judge the believer and unbeliever.

If men remain faithful to the Lord till death, they will see eternal life.

That's just your opinion. Jesus said quite differently. He said those who believe possess eternal life. 1 John 5:11 says that "God has GIVEN US eternal life". That sure isn't a future tense.

Jesus also said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Clear as can be.

If they hold that belief throughout their life, you are correct.

This reveals failure to trust what Jesus said in John 10:28.

As you admit that His sheep follow Him, we are in agreement.
Of course if the sheep quit following Him they were not His sheep.

Again, where is this idea found in Scripture? Nowhere is where. That means it is just another opinion of yours.

They manifest that they were not believers to begin with.

Then why even both calling them His sheep in the first place?? That makes no sense.

At the last day, the day of the Lord's judgement, all will get the chance to find out if their names are in the book of life...or not.

Nonsense. There's no faith in that opinion.

Those who have believed HAVE their names in the book of life, and HAVE been given the gift of eternal life by Jesus Himself. And shall never perish.

It's just amazing how much Scripture you are rejecting by your posts.

What can cause their names to be removed from the book of life?

Nothing. If you are thinking of Rev 3:5, it is a literary technique called a litotes. Please do some research on the word for yourself and your own edification.

Sin, the manifestation of not believing that God is to be obeyed at any cost.

How interesting. Your own posts and claims reveal that you DON'T believe the words of Jesus in John 5:24, 6:47 and 10:28.

So, why doesn't that bother you?

You claim to be sinless yet you don't believe what Jesus said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Jesus SAID that those He gives eternal life to shall never perish.

What does that mean to you?"

There you go again.

No, there YOU go again. I asked a simple question of clarification, and you fail to answer. Why do you do that?

Twisting logic on its head again in order to suit your error strewn Theology.

OK, flamethrower, explain specifically HOW I use "twisted logic" to get to my views.

You do realise some abortionists say the very same thing?

What??!! You mean they claim that those who have been given eternal life shall never perish??? Who among abortionists have EVER said that???

Your posts are just getting more and more puzzling.

But I'll not let you off that easy. Talk me through this please

You go on an unrepentant killing spree in your Church. Killing 100 men, women and children.

How does Judgement Day work out for you..?

I'll be as slow and clear as I can be in my answer for you.

Since I HAVE believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, and have ZERO faith in my own miserable efforts compared with His perfect work on the cross on my behalf, I KNOW that Jesus Christ HAS GIVEN me the gift of eternal life (John 5;24, 6:47, 10:28).

I also KNOW that since He HAS GIVEN me eternal life, I KNOW what He said about it. I SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Given all that, here's HOW Judgment Day would work out for me. According to 2 Cor 5:10 - "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad", if I haven't confessed and repented after that horrible act, I will lose ALL eternal rewards, but I WILL BE in heaven. I won't reign with Christ (2 Tim 2:12), nor share in His glory (Rom 8:17b), which is just another way to state the principle of 2 Tim 2:12.

So, now I'll ask you a question and hope you give me the same courtesy that I've just given you in my thorough answer to your question.

Do you think that Christ didn't die for the sin of murder of 100 people at the same time?

 

[S.ilvio]

I said:
"Jesus SAID that those He gives eternal life to shall never perish.

What does that mean to you?"

No, there YOU go again. I asked a simple question of clarification, and you fail to answer. Why do you do that?


OK, flamethrower, explain specifically HOW I use "twisted logic" to get to my views.


What??!! You mean they claim that those who have been given eternal life shall never perish??? Who among abortionists have EVER said that???

Your posts are just getting more and more puzzling.


I'll be as slow and clear as I can be in my answer for you.

Since I HAVE believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, and have ZERO faith in my own miserable efforts compared with His perfect work on the cross on my behalf, I KNOW that Jesus Christ HAS GIVEN me the gift of eternal life (John 5;24, 6:47, 10:28).

I also KNOW that since He HAS GIVEN me eternal life, I KNOW what He said about it. I SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Given all that, here's HOW Judgment Day would work out for me. According to 2 Cor 5:10 - "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad", if I haven't confessed and repented after that horrible act, I will lose ALL eternal rewards, but I WILL BE in heaven. I won't reign with Christ (2 Tim 2:12), nor share in His glory (Rom 8:17b), which is just another way to state the principle of 2 Tim 2:12.

So, now I'll ask you a question and hope you give me the same courtesy that I've just given you in my thorough answer to your question.

Do you think that Christ didn't die for the sin of murder of 100 people at the same time?

That's so confused. One statement contradicting the next.

Christ's sacrifice was indeed perfect and for all sin and for all of Mankind.

But if we arrogantly do not think we need to repent we are turning our face from God and will be cut off.

This has been shown with crystal clarity.

Salvation to Believers is very simple.

Its you who has to do handstands to the head of a pin to try to fit your Theology with salvation...

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's so confused. One statement contradicting the next.

Now, that's just tired. If you're going to throw flames, please back them up with EVIDENCE. Do you have any evidence of ANY of my comments contradicting ANY other statement?

Of course you don't. Which is why you don't ever respond to my challenges to prove your empty claims.

Christ's sacrifice was indeed perfect and for all sin and for all of Mankind.

Well, given your silly scenario, who would have known that? It seems to me that murdering 100 people at one time earned loss of salvation.

But if we arrogantly do not think we need to repent we are turning our face from God and will be cut off.

Didn't you even bother to read any of my post?? Here is what I said:

"if I haven't confessed and repented after that horrible act, I will lose ALL eternal rewards"

This has been shown with crystal clarity.

And that was in my answer.

Salvation to Believers is very simple.

You have been quite clear that one's LIFESTYLE determines whether the believer enters heaven.

Why do you ELEVATE your own opinions and emotions OVER the very words of Jesus??

IF you want to talk about arrogance, you're really demonstrating the point.

Its you who has to do handstands to the head of a pin to try to fit your Theology with salvation...

OK, another flame. Now, back up a bit and back up your really stupid comment.

But, I understand the NEED to use such "dramatic" words to hide behind because you have NO substance. "do handstands" and "on the head of a pin".

The 2 words underlined do go well together.

 

[S.ilvio]

You're so confused in your thinking. I hope this shows through to you in some small way and will help you to correct your grave error.

You tell us all that your salvation is assured no matter what you do. Then in the next breath that if you haven't confessed and repented, you will lose ALL eternal rewards.

Hence it takes you to repent. You to freely work at repentance in order to gain your eternal reward.

I hope some of this sinks in with you...

 

[FreeGrace2]

You're so confused in your thinking.

This is really getting tired. You keep repeating yourself, but you NEVER prove your empty claim. Are you able, or not?

I hope this shows through to you in some small way and will help you to correct your grave error.

Just what is my "grave error"? You clearly haven't shown that your opinions are biblical. Are you able, or not?

You tell us all that your salvation is assured no matter what you do.

Because Jesus tells us that. And I believe what He says.

[QUTOE] Then in the next breath that if you haven't confessed and repented, you will lose ALL eternal rewards.[/QUOTE]
And that's a problem for you? Maybe it's you who are confused about what the Bible teaches. But that seems typical of Arminians. They have no idea what rewards even are.

Hence it takes you to repent. You to freely work at repentance in order to gain your eternal reward.

Of course there is 'work' involved in repentance. Just ask the prodigal. He had to actually get up out of the pig sty and walk back home.

I hope some of this sinks in with you...

What is very clear to me is that nothing is sinking in with you. Sadly.

 

[S.ilvio]

So you accept Faith alone isn't enough. Works are also required.

That's good...

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"You cannot prove your opinion. The Bible teaches very clearly that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN a person believes in Christ."
It sure is. In John 5:24 and 6:47 Jesus SAID those who believe HAVE (as in currently possess) eternal life. Your view is contrary to what Jesus said.

I will agree up to this point...True believers don't commit sin during the remainder of their vessel's time on earth, so from the point of their sanctification by the blood of Christ, they will be saved.

Then, Jesus said those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe) shall never perish. That is a straightforward statement of eternal security. I am sorry you refuse to admit the obvious.

Belief results in obedience, so I agree with you.

No. There is nothing in the Bible that makes such a statement. In fact, there are many statements in the Bible about miracles being performed by Satan.

If someone does a miracle in the name of Jesus Christ, it would be prudent to think they believe in Jesus Christ.
But their belief was canceled out by their iniquity.

Are you arguing that these words mean something different?? Where do you get your information from?
From biblehub.com -
New International Version
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Of course they differ.
Not all judgement results in condemnation.

Yep. God will judge the believer and unbeliever.

Yes, He will.
But consider this...Paul writes..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
My sins were judged, and I was found guilty. The wages of sin was death, and I received the wages of my sins by my death...with Christ at my "immersion" into His death, burial, and I was raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
Being now raised, a new creature with Christ, my eternal life has already started.

This reveals failure to trust what Jesus said in John 10:28.

I am one of the sheep "that follow Him".
Sinners aren't following Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you accept Faith alone isn't enough.

You put this as a fact, not a question. It is NOT a fact. Where in the world do you come up with these nonsense statements?

We are saved by GRACE, through faith. In fact, Paul added, "not of works" in the next verse. Eph 1:8,9

Works are also required.

Please provide the single BEST and clearest verse that SAYS that salvation requires works. I DARE you.

That's good...

Those who think salvation requires works, aren't saved yet.

We are saved by grace, not of works.

Paul refutes your opinions. Eph 2:8,9

Hint. Before you read the verses, pray for discernment and understanding.

btw, IF you do read the verses, and STILL think works are required, please exegete the 2 verses for me to show me what Paul meant.

 

[Phil W]

You put this as a fact, not a question. It is NOT a fact. Where in the world do you come up with these nonsense statements?

We are saved by GRACE, through faith. In fact, Paul added, "not of works" in the next verse. Eph 1:8,9


Please provide the single BEST and clearest verse that SAYS that salvation requires works. I DARE you.


Those who think salvation requires works, aren't saved yet.

We are saved by grace, not of works.

Paul refutes your opinions. Eph 2:8,9

Hint. Before you read the verses, pray for discernment and understanding.

btw, IF you do read the verses, and STILL think works are required, please exegete the 2 verses for me to show me what Paul meant.

I agree with you, if your words are in realization that the "works"mentioned in scripture are the "works" of the Mosaic Law...
Circumcision, dietary law, clothing law, tithing, feast keeping, temple worship. etc.
Those things can't save men in the NT.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"You cannot prove your opinion. The Bible teaches very clearly that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN a person believes in Christ."
It sure is. In John 5:24 and 6:47 Jesus SAID those who believe HAVE (as in currently possess) eternal life. Your view is contrary to what Jesus said.

I will agree up to this point...True believers don't commit sin during the remainder of their vessel's time on earth, so from the point of their sanctification by the blood of Christ, they will be saved.

I flatly reject your opinion. And you don't have any verses to support your opinion.

Belief results in obedience, so I agree with you.

No, you don't, because belief doesn't result in obedience. It results in God saving you.

If someone does a miracle in the name of Jesus Christ, it would be prudent to think they believe in Jesus Christ.

It would be WAY MORE PRUDENT to listen to ALL of what Jesus said in v.23. About "I NEVER knew you".

Why would Jesus that He NEVER knew someone who used to believe and used to perform miracles? How does that make sense?

But their belief was canceled out by their iniquity.

Quite an imagination there.

Of course they differ.
Not all judgement results in condemnation.

Exactly. judgment for believers results in loss of eternal rewards, and judgment for unbelievers results in being in either less or more tolerable conditions than others in the lake of fire.

iow, the lake of fire isn't just 1 temperature.

But consider this...Paul writes..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
My sins were judged, and I was found guilty. The wages of sin was death, and I received the wages of my sins by my death

You seem totally unaware of your statement here, but it demonstrates that you STILL have NO IDEA what Jesus died for. You think you yourself died. That means you don't think He died for you.

You're more confused than ever before.

...with Christ at my "immersion" into His death, burial, and I was raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
Being now raised, a new creature with Christ, my eternal life has already started.

See? Much more confusion.

Eternal life is a present possession for whoever believes. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

I am one of the sheep "that follow Him".

You ARE aware that lying is a sin, right? How can someone claim that they "follow Him" when they DON'T BELIEVE what He said in John 10:28?

Sinners aren't following Him.

Exactly. Now, find a mirror and look real hard into it. You'll see a sinner.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"We are saved by GRACE, through faith. In fact, Paul added, "not of works" in the next verse. Eph 1:8,9

Please provide the single BEST and clearest verse that SAYS that salvation requires works. I DARE you."

I agree with you, if your words are in realization that the "works"mentioned in scripture are the "works" of the Mosaic Law...
Circumcision, dietary law, clothing law, tithing, feast keeping, temple worship. etc.
Those things can't save men in the NT.

Well, there you go again. FAILING to answer my question about your BEST verse about salvation requiring works.

All you've got is your opinion, driven by emotion, apparently.

And you haven't addressed what Eph 2:8,9 really means if works are also necessary, since Paul made it clear that they AREN'T.

You just can't seem to be able to defend yourself or support your position from Scripture.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"You cannot prove your opinion. The Bible teaches very clearly that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN a person believes in Christ."
It sure is. In John 5:24 and 6:47 Jesus SAID those who believe HAVE (as in currently possess) eternal life. Your view is contrary to what Jesus said.
I flatly reject your opinion. And you don't have any verses to support your opinion.

I'm sorry to read that.

No, you don't, because belief doesn't result in obedience. It results in God saving you.

If you believe you are or have been saved, who would you ever forsake the God that saved you?
I just can't fathom that.

It would be WAY MORE PRUDENT to listen to ALL of what Jesus said in v.23. About "I NEVER knew you".

Because they still worked iniquity after a supposed conversion.

Why would Jesus that He NEVER knew someone who used to believe and used to perform miracles? How does that make sense?

A false repentance from sin, or none at all, will result in Jesus' words about never knowing them.

Exactly. judgment for believers results in loss of eternal rewards, and judgment for unbelievers results in being in either less or more tolerable conditions than others in the lake of fire.

It is the difference in our description of "believer" that divides us.

You seem totally unaware of your statement here, but it demonstrates that you STILL have NO IDEA what Jesus died for. You think you yourself died. That means you don't think He died for you.

If He hadn't died, I would not have been enabled to be baptized into His death, burial, and resurrection.
I would still be the old man with it's fleshly nature, and sins, and against Godliness.

You're more confused than ever before.

Don't you mean...more entrenched in the new creature's life without sin, in Christ, and eternally saved.

You ARE aware that lying is a sin, right? How can someone claim that they "follow Him" when they DON'T BELIEVE what He said in John 10:28?

How can someone claim eternal life if they are NOT following Him?

Exactly. Now, find a mirror and look real hard into it. You'll see a sinner.

If I am a sinner, I am not following Him and have no eternal life awaiting me.