Salvation Cannot be Lost

[JLB777]

my wife and I were missionaries and we started an organization to raise money for Christian missions and toured the world in a Christian band. After ten years of marriage she abandoned me and walked completely away from God. She now claims to not believe in God. Was she faking being a Christian for 25 years? We’re the missions trips all over the world pretend? Was she lying then or is she lying now? I used to believe in once saved always saved and then my wife lost her salvation before my eyes.

No. She was saved, The she wandered away from Christ, and became lost.


This is plainly taught in the Bible; The prodigal son. The lost sheep.




JLB

 

[GaveMeJoy]

That is my prayer.
1 John 2:16, parable of the seeds, John 15, and others are a concern.
But the word says no one can snatch them out of his hands!

 

[JLB777]

That is my prayer.
1 John 2:16, parable of the seeds, John 15, and others are a concern.
But the word says no one can snatch them out of his hands!

Those who hear, listen and obey His Voice, that results in following Him, will be given eternal life, because no one can snatch them out of His hand.


Please read and quote the scripture.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


The Condition -

• My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

The Promise for meeting the Condition -

• And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Sheep who hear and obey His Voice, in which they follow Him, are those who receive the promise of obeying Him, otherwise they run the danger of becoming lost.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9






JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
""suggest"???!!! Far from it. I PRONOUNCE TO THE WORLD that ONLY belief in Christ for salvation results in salvation. And I've proven it, unlike yourself with your corrupt opinions.

Eph 2;8,9 refutes your opinions.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast,"

So because you believe Christ is The Saviour, that gives you license to murder and desecrate a church, unrepentantly.

Huh? Don't you believe that Christ is your Savior?? Don't you believe that those He gives eternal life shall never perish? John 10:28 says exactly that.

Weird Theology...

How does Eph 2:8,9 and John 10:28 equal "weird theology"?? Please explain. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No my friend. We are all unworthy sinners until the day we die...

Amen!! Yet, by grace those who have put their trust in the work of Christ alone are given eternal life and shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

People receive eternal life by being in Christ.

Is there a verse that says this? Please share. Otherwise, this is just your opinion.

Scripture says this:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. The word "has" is in the present tense.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. Ditto.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

iow, it is by the work of Christ, by giving eternal life to believers, that they shall never perish.

Those who are “in Christ” but do not remain “in Christ” no longer have the eternal life they once had when they were “in Christ”.

Again, refuted by Scripture itself.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Can you explain how a believer who grieves the Holy Spirit is STILL sealed for the day of redemption? And note the verse doesn't say "the day of judgment".

Here is how the scriptures teach us to remain “in Christ”.

The verses above prove that Scripture does NOT teach anyone how to "remain in Christ". Our sealing is by the Holy Spirit, and no one is stronger than the Spirit, and no one can break this "seal".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of course Salvation can be lost as even people who accept Christ as our Saviour, we continue to sin and have our human imperfections.

If salvation "can be lost", then why did Jesus tell us that those He gives eternal life to shall never perish? John 10:28

Your (Phil W) claim to being perfect is a folly. A dangerous one too...

Now, that much is quite true!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't know why you think that.
Jesus commanded our perfection in Matt 5:48.

The Greek word means maturity, completion, as in spiritually mature.

[QUOTEPeter writes of it in 1Peter 4:1 and 2Peter 1:10.
As does Paul in 1Cor 15:34 and 2Tim 2:19.
John writes of it in 1John 3:9 and 1John 5:18.[/QUOTE]
Same word, and same meaning.]

Can you find one verse that says we will be slaves to sin for all our NT lives?

This isn't a matter of extremes, just one or the other, as you seem to think.

It's a moment by moment thing. Any time a believer "presents him/herself to sin" is a slave to sin.

Rom 6:16 - Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

And previous to this verse is v.12-13-
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.

These are choices the believer makes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

my wife and I were missionaries and we started an organization to raise money for Christian missions and toured the world in a Christian band. After ten years of marriage she abandoned me and walked completely away from God. She now claims to not believe in God. Was she faking being a Christian for 25 years?

No.

We’re the missions trips all over the world pretend?

No.

Was she lying then or is she lying now?

Neither.

I used to believe in once saved always saved and then my wife lost her salvation before my eyes.

Did you see her her eternal life leave her? Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. If she had eternal life (was saved) and doesn't have eternal life now, then what Jesus said cannot be true.

So, please don't equate loss of faith with loss of salvation. Jesus told us that some will lose their faith (Luke 8:13) due to pressures/testing/temptation. But John 10:28 holds for every believer. Even those who cease to believe.

John 10:28 cannot be true if anyone loses their salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No. She was saved, The she wandered away from Christ, and became lost.

She was STILL Jesus' sheep. She STILL possessed eternal life. Therefore, she shall never perish. Because Jesus said so.

This is plainly taught in the Bible; The prodigal son. The lost sheep.

Eternal security sure is.

 

[Phil W]

The Greek word means maturity, completion, as in spiritually mature.

[QUOTEPeter writes of it in 1Peter 4:1 and 2Peter 1:10.
As does Paul in 1Cor 15:34 and 2Tim 2:19.
John writes of it in 1John 3:9 and 1John 5:18.
Same word, and same meaning.

Why did you leave out one "descriptor" of the word "perfect"?
That word was ...PERFECT.

This isn't a matter of extremes, just one or the other, as you seem to think.
It's a moment by moment thing. Any time a believer "presents him/herself to sin" is a slave to sin.

Ping-pong righteousness.
Blather.
Jesus said who soever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (John 8:34)
Jesus said that no man can serve two masters. (Matt 6:24)
Those who serve sin hate God.

Rom 6:16 - Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
And previous to this verse is v.12-13-
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
These are choices the believer makes.

If those that disobey the exhortations of the Lord's prophets are believers, then they also know they are not of God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why did you leave out one "descriptor" of the word "perfect"?
That word was ...PERFECT.

That's how the Greek word is translated. I've already been all through the proof from Romans 6-7 that man STILL possesses his sinful nature, and is therefore NEVER perfect. Adam was perfect until he rebelled and ate the fruit. Then his human nature was corrupted, and the result was immediate spiritual death and the process of physical death.

Jesus said who soever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (John 8:34)

Correct. Even believers can serve sin. Obviously. Not that they should.

Jesus said that no man can serve two masters. (Matt 6:24)

Again, correct.

Those who serve sin hate God.

Or, more probably, love sin more than they love God. Remember, when the Bible speaks of "hating one's parents" it is in comparison with loving God. The Bible NEVER orders or even suggests that anyone hate their parents.

If those that disobey the exhortations of the Lord's prophets are believers, then they know they are not of God.

Correct. They are "not of God" in the clear sense that they are not following Him.

But remember that Romans 6-7 proves that all humans retain their sinful nature until death, when their soul/spirit is separated from their body. James 2:26

 

[Phil W]

That's how the Greek word is translated. I've already been all through the proof from Romans 6-7 that man STILL possesses his sinful nature, and is therefore NEVER perfect. Adam was perfect until he rebelled and ate the fruit. Then his human nature was corrupted, and the result was immediate spiritual death and the process of physical death.

Your POV denies the truth of 2 Cor 5:17.
"...old things are passed away; behold, all things are made new."

Correct. Even believers can serve sin. Obviously. Not that they should.

They aren't believing what Jesus said about freedom from committing sin.
They are actually disbelievers.

Or, more probably, love sin more than they love God.

I'll go with What Jesus said instead of what you find "probable".

Correct. They are "not of God" in the clear sense that they are not following Him.

"In a sense"?
If they don't follow Him they are not His.
Your favorite John 10:27 makes that clear.

But remember that Romans 6-7 proves that all humans retain their sinful nature until death, when their soul/spirit is separated from their body.

No, it doesn't prove any such thing.
Only those whose repentance from sin was a lie have retained any part of who they were before being crucified and buried with Christ. Before they were raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Paul writes..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
The wages of sin is death, so that death is the judgement we experience early...at our baptism into Christ's death.
Me and my sinful nature were killed, and I was given a divine nature when I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your POV denies the truth of 2 Cor 5:17.
"...old things are passed away; behold, all things are made new."

My POV does not deny that truth. I've explained it thoroughly. The new birth gives the believer another nature, a spiritual nature. You have not proven otherwise.

Just as Jesus had 2 natures, a fully human and a fully divine nature, the believer has 2 natures; the sinful human nature, and the new RE-born spiritual nature, from which the believer cannot sin. However, the believer always has a choice to make. Whether to sin or not. All sin comes from the human nature. All divine good, from the power of the Holy Spirit, comes from the spiritual nature.

You have not proven otherwise.

They aren't believing what Jesus said about freedom from committing sin.

Or just rebelling against what He said.

Paul made the point very clear; it's a choice.

Romans 6:16 - Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

This isn't a one time choice. It's a moment-by-moment choice.

They are actually disbelievers.

Yes, some saved people cease to believe. Jesus said so in Luke 8:13.

I'll go with What Jesus said instead of what you find "probable".

Where did I say "probable"? Sin is obviously possible. Otherwise, all the commands to be holy and perfect are rendered irrelevant. Is that your argument?

If they don't follow Him they are not His.

Please back up your claim with Scripture.

Your favorite John 10:27 makes that clear.

Actually, it's v.28 that is my favorite verse on eternal security. v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO. Not anything about HOW they become sheep.

The reason Jesus' sheep shall never perish is because Jesus gives them eternal life. That's what v.28 is saying.

No, it doesn't prove any such thing.

And claims don't prove anything either. You need a verse to prove your claims. As I have.

You have not proven your claim that Paul's present tense writing of Romans 7 was a "historical present". There are NO WORDS to come to that conclusion.

And when I asked for evidence for the "historical present", you gave none. Just your claim that Paul was writing about some time past when he was unsaved. You still haven't proven your claim.

If saved people cannot sin any more (your claim) then NONE of the commands to believers about stop sinning make any sense. Instead, ALL of the commands refute your claim.

Eph 4:17 - So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.

So, please explain WHY Paul would tell saved people this; to stop living like unbelievers. The problem is, you can't do that, given your claims.

 

[Phil W]

My POV does not deny that truth. I've explained it thoroughly. The new birth gives the believer another nature, a spiritual nature. You have not proven otherwise.

All I can do is post the scripture you keep denying...
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
You retain some of the old.
That is unbiblical.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All I can do is post the scripture you keep denying...

And, once again, all I can do is DENY your false claim that I deny 2 Cor 5:17.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
You retain some of the old.
That is unbiblical.[/QUOTE]
One must always consider the whole counsel of God when trying to interpret any single verse. There are many verses to believers that speak of the sin nature and how to deal with it. Why do you deny all those verses?

Here's how to understand 2 Cor 5:17:

The "old things" is the dichotomous person; body and soul. The "new things" is the trichotomous person; body, soul and spirit.

It's the born again human spirit that can't sin. If born again sinners no longer have their human sinful nature, there would be no need of any warnings about behavior or commands to stop sinning. Yet, there ARE warnings about behavior and commands to stop sinning.

All of which refutes your view.

 

[JLB777]

Is there a verse that says this? Please share. Otherwise, this is just your opinion.

Scripture says this:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. The word "has" is in the present tense.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. Ditto.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

iow, it is by the work of Christ, by giving eternal life to believers, that they shall never perish.


Again, refuted by Scripture itself.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Can you explain how a believer who grieves the Holy Spirit is STILL sealed for the day of redemption? And note the verse doesn't say "the day of judgment".


The verses above prove that Scripture does NOT teach anyone how to "remain in Christ". Our sealing is by the Holy Spirit, and no one is stronger than the Spirit, and no one can break this "seal".

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


How can a brother hate his brother and still have eternal life remaining in him?




JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

How can a brother hate his brother and still have eternal life remaining in him?
JLB

Again, how can someone who has been given eternal life PERISH when Jesus was as clear as possible in John 10:28 when He said:

"and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

 

[Phil W]

And, once again, all I can do is DENY your false claim that I deny 2 Cor 5:17.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
You retain some of the old.
That is unbiblical.

One must always consider the whole counsel of God when trying to interpret any single verse. There are many verses to believers that speak of the sin nature and how to deal with it. Why do you deny all those verses?[/QUOTE]
Some have dealt with it, crucifying it with Christ.
Not all the readers or hearers of this message, or of the exhortations and admonissions, have heard that before.
Not all the readers and hearers have obeyed it...much to their future destruction.

Here's how to understand 2 Cor 5:17:
The "old things" is the dichotomous person; body and soul. The "new things" is the trichotomous person; body, soul and spirit.
It's the born again human spirit that can't sin. If born again sinners no longer have their human sinful nature, there would be no need of any warnings about behavior or commands to stop sinning. Yet, there ARE warnings about behavior and commands to stop sinning.
All of which refutes your view.

How did the old nature remain, if the body and soul are made new?
Don't bother answering as it is a rhetorical question.

Old things are passed away and all things are made new.
Unless some of the old didn't pass away and only some things were made new.
Ludicrous.

 

[OneOfTheMasters]

My input:
Salvation should not be the true issue.
Jn.3:16-18 is clear that this is God's gift that man may ascertain to have fellowship with Him.I

"It is finished" Jn.19:30 is the completed way that God took away the curse and WRATH of sin.

What is the debate IMO is where the "IF'S come into play