Salvation Cannot be Lost

JLB777 · Sep 30, 2019

To all OSAS doctrinal folks.

Does a born again believer who is in Christ, still have eternal life if he is no longer in Christ?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how we are instructed from the scriptures to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

JLB

JLB777 · Sep 30, 2019

His student said:
Phil, yeshuaslavejeff, renniks, JBL et al - I'd be happy to take you through an abbreviated phase of one of my basic systematic theology classes on this subject that one takes in a Protestant seminary - first term.

No charge. we could do it right here.

It would require a certain amount of humility of course as we'd have to approach it as if you were a beginner in theology and not someone who has done a lot of posting of opinion online.

If you are willing to approach the subject of eternal security vis a vis the judgment of believers from the beginning it would benefit you greatly as you all seem to have missed some rather basic concept in your rush to get involved in forums like this one.

Seriously - this is a great chance for you to get some basic seminary teaching free of charge.

All it will cost is a bit of humility and, since no one knows your true identity online, there's nothing to be lost really.

The only thing you will lose by going beyond the doctrine of Christ is your eternal life.

How about discussing the doctrine of Christ?

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

JLB

ICONO'CLAST · Sep 30, 2019

renniks said:
Where does scripture say that a former believer is still saved? Not works, continuing faith is necessary for salvation. There's plenty of warnings about falling into disbelief.

The warnings are a means of grace so the elect persevere to the end;

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

JLB777 · Sep 30, 2019

renniks said:
Where does scripture say that a former believer is still saved? Not works, continuing faith is necessary for salvation. There's plenty of warnings about falling into disbelief.

As well as disobedience to Christ:

Those who disobey His commandments and doctrine will find themselves removed from Christ, if they don’t repent.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16

JLB

His student · Sep 30, 2019

JLB777 said:
The only thing you will lose by going beyond the doctrine of Christ is your eternal life.
How about discussing the doctrine of Christ?
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9 JLB

One thing you need to understand right up front when debating eternal security vs.non-eternal security is that the opposite side can accept your proof texts and still hold to eternal security where as you cannot accept theirs and hold to lack of eternal security.

That's a humbling logical truth to face right off the bat in this debate and probably why you are unwilling to have the debate in the first place.

I.e. there are many ways to account for those warnings about judgement that eternal security types can appeal to to explain them and they don't need to just ignore them.

Whereas - there are absolutely no ways to account for the many clear and unambiguous statements used as proof texts for eternal security without your rejecting them outright or ignoring them.

I.e. - if God's Word is true and dependable for doctrine - the odds come down very much on the side of the eternal security proponent.

If that isn't clear - I could give you examples and lead you through it from scratch as I would one the first year seminary students.

Phil W · Sep 30, 2019

Daniel C said:
Well saved Christians can't take the mark of the beast:
Mark 13:22
''For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.''

Couldn't agree more. But will add that "saved" Christians WON"T take the mark.
I'll also add that because the born again are of Godly seed, (1 John 3:9), they cannot bring forth evil fruit. (sin).

The saved cannot lose salvation therefore will not be forsaken by Christ. Only the unsaved folk need to worry about taking the mark. The people who trust in works salvation are susceptible to taking the mark of damnation,as they have not accepted the free eternal gift of salvation.

What do you mean by "works salvation"?

Phil W · Sep 30, 2019

His student said:
One thing you need to understand right up front when debating eternal security vs.non-eternal security is that the opposite side can accept your proof texts and still hold to eternal security where as you cannot accept theirs and hold to lack of eternal security.

That's a humbling logical truth to face right off the bat in this debate and probably why you are unwilling to have the debate in the first place.

I.e. there are many ways to account for those warnings about judgement that eternal security types can appeal to to explain them and they don't need to just ignore them.

Whereas - there are absolutely no ways to account for the many clear and unambiguous statements used as proof texts for eternal security without your rejecting them outright or ignoring them.

I.e. - if God's Word is true and dependable for doctrine - the odds come down very much on the side of the eternal security proponent.

If that isn't clear - I could give you examples and lead you through it from scratch as I would one the first year seminary students.

Frankly, folks who do believe God, manifested by their fear of and obedience to Him, will be saved at the final judgement.
Disbelievers, manifested by their disobedience and walk in the flesh, won't be judged worthy of eternal life with God.
This thread is more of a question about what manifests "belief".

Phil W · Sep 30, 2019

His student said:
If a born again believer cannot lose salvation for lies or theft (or for any other reason as I believe) then he would not take the Mark of the Beast.

So, born again believers are all still servants of sin despite what Jesus said? (John 8:32-34)
How come knowing the truth had no effect on them?
Or didn't they believe the truth?

Phil W · Sep 30, 2019

ICONO'CLAST said:
Those with a works based gospel do not understand salvation by grace.
that is why they worry about losing the false works-based ,dead religions

I have not seen anyone advocating circumcision, tithing, feast keeping, or dietary laws "for salvation".
That is the works Paul argued against.
I really hope you are not arguing against obedience to God.

Phil W · Sep 30, 2019

His student said:
Phil, yeshuaslavejeff, renniks, JBL et al - I'd be happy to take you through an abbreviated phase of one of my basic systematic theology classes on this subject that one takes in a Protestant seminary - first term.

I need to ask if you still commit sin, before "learning" anything from you.
I mean, if you are still open to lying, I wouldn't be able to trust you.

Daniel C · Oct 1, 2019

renniks said:
Yes, notice the condition of belief. Not just belief, but living belief. I never push works salvation. Real faith will produce results, but salvation is conditional on continuing faith, not works

You tried proving this before and couldn't do it so I won't ask you again.

Conditional salvation is a false doctrine.

Daniel C · Oct 1, 2019

JLB777 said:
No, doesn’t come close.

No mention of the mark of the beast in this scripture.

JLB

Doesn't come close?

Well anti-Christ just means false Christ. And we know one will come some day with his signature.

''For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.''

I see the anti-Christ,I see his sign or mark and I see he can't take born again Christians. If it were possible but it is not possible.

Daniel C · Oct 1, 2019

Phil W said:
Couldn't agree more. But will add that "saved" Christians WON"T take the mark.
I'll also add that because the born again are of Godly seed, (1 John 3:9), they cannot bring forth evil fruit. (sin).

What do you mean by "works salvation"?

Can't is a more fitting description because a saved person cannot lose their salvation,therefore they can't take the mark of the beast.

If you are trying to imply you never sin, I say you're a liar.

1 John 1:5
''If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.''

The ''we'' part is Christians, so people who claim they have no sin are liars.

I think your interpretation of 1 John is incorrect.

''4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.''

So people who break Gods law sin,and at that moment cannot claim to be acting as a child of God whether they are born again again or not. It doesn't say anything about salvation loss though,does it?

And works salvation is the belief system when a person believes it's compulsory to carry out deeds in order to be saved or continue to be saved.

JLB777 · Oct 1, 2019

His student said:
One thing you need to understand right up front when debating eternal security vs.non-eternal security is that the opposite side can accept your proof texts and still hold to eternal security where as you cannot accept theirs and hold to lack of eternal security.

I’m not debating eternal security bs non eternal security, which are man made doctrines.

You either believe what Christ taught or you don’t.

Those who disobey His commandments and doctrine will find themselves removed from Christ, if they don’t repent.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2019

renniks said:
Yes, notice the condition of belief. Not just belief, but living belief.

Oh, this is interesting. Which verse in the Bible speaks of this "living belief"??

I never push works salvation. Real faith will produce results, but salvation is conditional on continuing faith, not works

Oh, and while you're at it, please quote or at least cite the verse that says what you claim, which is this: "salvation is conditional on continuing faith".

I don't believe you.

renniks · Oct 1, 2019

ICONO'CLAST said:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

More proof that one must continue in faith to receive the promises.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2019

I said:
"What you're implying is that Jesus said this:

"I give eternal life to those who continue to believe, and IF or AS LONG AS they continue to believe, they shall never perish"."

renniks said:
Who was he giving eternal life to? His sheep, (oh,no, another farming metaphor!), Who are defined as those who listen to and follow him, not those who once upon a Time did.

Two things:

First, you didn't admit what you have been implying, which I stated clearly, for the record. So, if you DON'T agree with my point, then explain specifically what you do believe about what Jesus said.

Second, it seems you fail to distinguish between a description (definition) and the means of becoming a sheep of Jesus.

Jesus described what His sheep DO in v.27. Got it? He wasn't giving the means of how to become His sheep.

Then, in v.28 He cleary stated the RESULT of being given eternal life. This isn't even arguable. Yet, you guys just keep on ignoring the clear and plain language and try to argue what He NEVER said.

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 1, 2019

Phil W said:
I have not seen anyone advocating circumcision, tithing, feast keeping, or dietary laws "for salvation".
That is the works Paul argued against.
I really hope you are not arguing against obedience to God.

My statement did not reference the Apostle Paul.
I spoke of present day dead religions with a works based system. There are several.

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 1, 2019

renniks said:
More proof that one must continue in faith to receive the promises.

No...it proves saved persons persevere in the faith as God works in them.

renniks · Oct 1, 2019

Daniel C said:
You tried proving this before and couldn't do it so I won't ask you again.

Conditional salvation is a false doctrine.

More like, you have avoided answering any of my verses. Everybody believes salvation is conditional to enter into, and scripture makes it clear that many will fall away. 1Timothy 4:1
How do you reconcile this with OSAS?

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