Salvation Cannot be Lost

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And I agree. But, so what? Does that scenario change the clear meaning and words that Jesus said in John 10:28? Of course NOT.

"clear meaning" ??

Here's the deal.
Jesus taught that those who believe (current possession from the present tense) HAVE eternal life. That obviously means they HAVE it WHEN they believe.

"WHEN they believe" is good - except for the case in Scripture : "when they believe" they shudder in terror because of their judgment they know is soon...

"WHEN they believe" becomes "They USED TO believe" if they stop believing....
And then, not believing, they PERISH, as written, right ?

"clear meaning"? In Scripture simple and true....
but in the doctrines of men and of demons, not so much ....

 

[Daniel C]

Lol, you are quite the comedian. Do you suppose all the early church fathers got it wrong and you have it right?

Who's view is more important? Jesus or the (unsaved?) church fathers?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't know any Arminians.
The problem with the question, or so it seems to me, is a wrong motive with wrong assumptions, including not knowing nor understanding what is thought presumptively to be known or understood.

Le't unpack your response.

Arminians is a general term for the theology that believes that salvation can be lost.

Second, only those with a BIASED motive and assumptions would even question my question. It was straightforward and simple. Only those LOOKING for such biased motives and assumptions would see them.

Third, you error greatly in suggesting what is "thought presumptively to be known or understood".

The question simply reveals who believes what Jesus said and who doesn't, at least for those who actually answer the question.

However, those who don't answer the question generally DO believe that recipients of eternal life can perish.

Have you answered the question? If not, because of your so-called "wrong motive and wrong assumptions", please explain where you see such things in the question.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Arminians is a general term for the theology that believes that salvation can be lost.

Okay, so in that respect it is as Jesus believes..

Second, only those with a BIASED motive and assumptions would even question my question. It was straightforward and simple. Only those LOOKING for such biased motives and assumptions would see them.

hahaha....... sure? no. We are called not to go along with any darkness or wrong teaching , rather to expose it...... If your bias held up under scrutiny, you would be fine, but it doesn't.

Third, you error greatly in suggesting what is "thought presumptively to be known or understood".

I did not suggest it. I stated it, and it is even more obvious now that it is truth.

The question simply reveals who believes what Jesus said and who doesn't, at least for those who actually answer the question.

Uh huh...... sure.....

However, those who don't answer the question generally DO believe that recipients of eternal life can perish.

No, again, wrong 'question'..... who is saved today may perish tomorrow... if they endure to the end though, then they will be resurrected into eternal life... They did not "receive eternal life" if they "lose it", did they?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Does that scenario change the clear meaning and words that Jesus said in John 10:28? Of course NOT."

"clear meaning" ??

Do you believe that John 10:28 isn't clear??

Please tell me what isn't clear about WHO gives eternal life. Jesus Himself
Please tell me what isn't clear about the result of being given eternal life. Shall never perish.

It's those who HAVE wrong biases and motives and assumptions who don't like my question about whether recipients of eternal life can perish.

"WHEN they believe" is good - except for the case in Scripture : "when they believe" they shudder in terror because of their judgment they know is soon...

Uh, please at least cite the verse you seem to be referring to. Just so I can check it out and see what you are referring to.

The only verse about believing and shuddering that I'm aware of is James 2:19 and has NOTHING to do with saving faith. It's about demons who believe in monotheism.

The last time I checked, believing in monotheism isn't "saving faith".

Have you ever asked yourself WHY demons believe that God is One? Well, if not, you should.

The answer is that they have EXPERIENCED monotheism themselves. So of course they believe that.

How did you come to believe that a red glowing stove top is too hot to touch? Just because mommy told you so, or because you EXPERIENCED it for yourself?

Believing from experience doesn't involve trust. It only involves the actual experience.

We know a light switch is how to turn on and off a light. But until someone actually does it for themself, they may not believe it.

So, let's quit abusing James 2:19 as some sort of "faith that does not save", since the subject in that verse isn't even about salvation.

"WHEN they believe" becomes "They USED TO believe" if they stop believing....
And then, not believing, they PERISH, as written, right ?

What do you mean, "perish, as written"?? Where is that written?

John 10:28 includes NO CONDITIONS for recipients to meet in order to never perish.

But Arminians ALWAYS force one or more into the verse.

"clear meaning"? In Scripture simple and true....
but in the doctrines of men and of demons, not so much ....

And that's the point. Men and demons make up a bunch of stuff. They twist the Scripture.

John 10:28 is extremely simple, clear and straightforward. But Arminians try to twist it all out of shape, by forcing conditions into it that aren't there.

Jesus gives eternal life to believers WHEN they believe. And they shall never perish.

It IS just that simple and clear.

Therefore, the doctrine of eternal security is bibical.

The man-made doctrine of loss of salvation is unbiblical.

 

[renniks]

Who's view is more important? Jesus or the (unsaved?) church fathers?

The fathers who were one generation removed from the apostles were unsaved, yet you are? Wow, I'm speechless....
Jesus said that branches that don't abide in him will be cut off and thrown in the fire. Paul just says the same thing in Romans. Was Jesus contradicting himself? I think he was explaining that salvation has a condition. Cults pull out one verse and refuse to see context, which is what the OP has been doing all along.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Arminians is a general term for the theology that believes that salvation can be lost."

Okay, so in that respect it is as Jesus believes..

No, just the opposite. If you need help reading/comprehending John 10:28, just ask.

We are called not to go along with any darkness or wrong teaching , rather to expose it......

Which is exactly what I do.

If your bias held up under scrutiny, you would be fine, but it doesn't.

OK, fair enough. Now, bring out your best argument for HOW my "bias" doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

I said:
"The question simply reveals who believes what Jesus said and who doesn't, at least for those who actually answer the question."

Uh huh...... sure.....

You are free to believe what you want, and reject what you want.

No, again, wrong 'question'..... who is saved today may perish tomorrow...

When, exactly, are you going to put forth your best argument for any saved person who may perish tomorrow? Oh, and, btw, please use Scripture to support your claim.

if they endure to the end though, then they will be resurrected into eternal life...

Conflating Scriptures isn't the way to defend yourself. It Just makes your argument look very weak.

"Enduring to the end" is in reference to the Tribulation, which is a 7 year period of time. So the verse does NOT apply to anyone outside of the Tribulation.

Second, one must properly understand what is being saved. Just because so many blankly assume it refers to saving of the soul, they would be in error. The verse is about living through the Tribulation to the end.

What you seem to totally miss is that IF the verse were what you assume it to be, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 CANNOT BE TRUE.

They did not "receive eternal life" if they "lose it", did they?

Seems like you are the one who is "losing it". Your statement contains no element of reality or rationality.

In the doctine of loss of salvation, one CAN receive eternal life, and then LOSE it.

What you know in your heart is that there are zero verses that plainly state that salvation can be lost. In any kind of clear plain wording.

I'm not asking for specific words, but any words that plainly state that salvation can be lost.

You can't do it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You can't do it.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets ...
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. New Living Translation "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers!

 

[Daniel C]

The fathers who were one generation removed from the apostles were unsaved, yet you are? Wow, I'm speechless....
Jesus said that branches that don't abide in him will be cut off and thrown in the fire. Paul just says the same thing in Romans. Was Jesus contradicting himself? I think he was explaining that salvation has a condition. Cults pull out one verse and refuse to see context, which is what the OP has been doing all along.

I just asked a question about them renniks that's all.

No Jesus never contradicted himself. I'm not a branch i'm a man. I understand Jesus isn't calling me foliage because i'm listening to him and not trying to find verses that fit a personal preference. And when Jesus says whoever believeth on him will not perish,I believe that too.

See how simple this is?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And when Jesus says whoever believeth on him will not perish,I believe that too.

Good, if someone continues to believe, trust the Father, and rely on Him.
If someone does not endure, to the end, they don't make it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"What you know in your heart is that there are zero verses that plainly state that salvation can be lost. In any kind of clear plain wording.

I'm not asking for specific words, but any words that plainly state that salvation can be lost.

You can't do it."

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets ...
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. New Living Translation "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers!

Like I said, you can't do it.

There is nothing here about losing salvation. In fact, it's about those who were NOT WILLING to believe.

You do not have any verse that tells us in clearly plain words that salvation can be lost.

otoh, John 10:28 is a clear and plain statement about eternal security.

When Jesus said "and they shall never perish", He wasn't kidding. Those He gives eternal life, which is WHEN they believe, WILL NEVER perish.

That is a guarantee.

Just as the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE for the inheritance of those who are God's possession, until the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

Or, do you want to argue that the word "until" means at the day of redemption, they CAN lose their inheritance??

 

[FreeGrace2]

Good, if someone continues to believe, trust the Father, and rely on Him.
If someone does not endure, to the end, they don't make it.

Please consider the context. The "enduring to the end" is specifically about a 7 year period called the Tribulation. So "to the end" refers to the end of the Tribulation.

 

[Phil W]

Apparently you have completely lost your ability to reason logically. It doesn't surprise me at all.

""So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him." Luke 8:18

If one cannot lose salvation for lies or theft, why would he lose it for taking the mark of the beast?

 

[renniks]

I just asked a question about them renniks that's all.

No Jesus never contradicted himself. I'm not a branch i'm a man. I understand Jesus isn't calling me foliage because i'm listening to him and not trying to find verses that fit a personal preference. And when Jesus says whoever believeth on him will not perish,I believe that too.

See how simple this is?

That totally ignores what Jesus and Paul said... you didn't address it at all? Yes, Jesus said whoever believes in him will not perish. Not whoever once believed. He says those who don't remain in him will be broken off, the metaphor of branches isn't hard to understand.

 

[Daniel C]

If one cannot lose salvation for lies or theft, why would he lose it for taking the mark of the beast?

Well saved Christians can't take the mark of the beast:

Mark 13:22
''For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.''

The saved cannot lose salvation therefore will not be forsaken by Christ. Only the unsaved folk need to worry about taking the mark. The people who trust in works salvation are susceptible to taking the mark of damnation,as they have not accepted the free eternal gift of salvation.

 

[Daniel C]

That totally ignores what Jesus and Paul said... you didn't address it at all? Yes, Jesus said whoever believes in him will not perish. Not whoever once believed. He says those who don't remain in him will be broken off, the metaphor of branches isn't hard to understand.

You just said it yourself,it's a metaphor......

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Well saved Christians can't take the mark of the beast:

Mark 13:22
''For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.''

Adam was ALIVE
until
he ate of the tree he was told not to eat of.

"saved" "Christians" might be alive, saved, and give it all up for this world's goods/ protection/ on threat of death ....

They don't have to get deceived nor tricked, per se, or "seduced",
they just
decide they want the "world" instead of Jesus Way , and so they choose who to serve... and lose their chance for eternal life .... willingly....

 

[renniks]

You just said it yourself,it's a metaphor......

Lol, yes, so are most of Jesus' teachings, but they still make clear points. If it's a metaphor, what does it mean?

 

[Daniel C]

Lol, yes, so are most of Jesus' teachings, but they still make clear points. If it's a metaphor, what does it mean?

Well when I read the Bible I don't see "most" of his teachings in the parables or metaphors. If you do then that's probably the issue-you can't draw a distinction between when Jesus is speaking literally and when he is speaking metaphorically.

Anyway you are not going to convince me that doctrine should be based on a metaphor or non-literal speech. Jesus tells us plainly in a straightforward manner what he wants from us if you actually listen to the words on the pages.

Only frauds use parables to base doctrine on because of their ambiguous nature, so they can justify works salvation and slide in their own personal agendas and ideas.

 

[renniks]

Well when I read the Bible I don't see "most" of his teachings in the parables or metaphors. If you do then that's probably the issue-you can't draw a distinction between when Jesus is speaking literally and when he is speaking metaphorically.

Anyway you are not going to convince me that doctrine should be based on a metaphor or non-literal speech. Jesus tells us plainly in a straightforward manner what he wants from us if you actually listen to the words on the pages.

Only frauds use parables to base doctrine on because of their ambiguous nature, so they can justify works salvation and slide in their own personal agendas and ideas.

In the same passage where he's talking about giving eternal life, in John 10, the verse that the OP is basing his whole doctrine on, Jesus is using parables and metaphors and calling people sheep. You really want to stick with the Shakey ground you are trying to stand on?