Saints who Protect

[anna ~ grace]

They are in Christ and have already passed beyond death. Christ has one body, the Church, and having breathed your last does not seperate you from Christ's body. We know that they are indeed alive in Christ because of the witness of 2000 years of God answering their prayers for us. Christ's body, the Church, is a communion of love. Those who have passed on express their love for us through their prayers.
I am not Catholic, so no statues.

Prodomos expresses this well. This is basically the main point, that Christ's victory over death includes all of us. The Church is One.

(I do like statues, though).

If all live in Christ, that must mean something real. And it does.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I know of One who told you, and His name is Jesus Christ, in Whom we do believe.

Does God heal everybody who suffers with difficult conditions? No, of course not, and we understand why: it is because it is better for those suffering and those who must care for them if He doesn't, in order that they may all be prepared to enter into the Eternal Life in Communion with God, because suffering (or caring for those who are suffering) teaches us to know Love, and God is Love. But He does heal some of their physical infirmities so that certain ones will come to believe in Him, and find faith, who otherwise would not have.

Watch your implications here. Telling someone their physical or psychological issues are a result of lack of faith can get you in trouble on this forum.

Why did so many people seek out Jesus Christ and listen to Him teach? Is it not because they had heard of His mighty miracles and works of healing?

And this is why I said that even those who didn't believe were healed! How many random "faith" healings do you see today?

Miraculous physical cures have their place in God's plan of salvation, as do our sufferings, and also the intercessions of saints who dwell in our Lord's presence. This has been the shared experience of all true members of Christ's body, which has continued to exist here in this world since He established us firmly upon the preaching of His chosen Apostles to do exactly that.

The "true members of Christ's body".... And who are they? You are listed as "Eastern Orthodox". The Roman Catholics think it's them. The Mormon's think it's them. The Seventh Day Adventists think it's them. On and on the list can go.

Do I think there are genuine believers in these churches even if I conclude they have a lot of doctrinal error? Yes I do. Are there a lot of lost people in these churches? Yes there are; but there are a lot of lost people in your typical evangelical, fundamental, baptist, presbyterian, non-denominational, community etc church too.

The Church: the pillar and foundation of truth, has always been here and will remain til our Lord's glorious return and forever after.

Again - define "the church".

 

[Natsumi Lam]

So all the examples...i am only asking for 1 example, only 1..where praying to or with the dead by anyone in the word is honored. Lets say in the new testament.

If it is not in the bible...it is an extrabiblical belief. All extra biblical beliefs can be argued one way or another since it is grey matter.

Then how can you be so certain your extrabiblical belief is correct...cuz its Tradition of man?

 

[truefiction1]

It just gets me as something very wrong to do, invoking the dead, when you say the saint name you are invoking him/her to listen to you, that alone i think is not correct and you are trying to communicate with people that passed away. The same as bowing to statues of them, don't you know those statues can't listen or receive anything from you?. This practice of venerating statues of saints doesn't make any sense to me since the statues are nothing why give them attention as if they were something important eh.

Generally, a bow before an image of a person, or a kiss placed upon the image is not directed at the image itself. It is directed at the person symbolized in the image. The only time any of us would pay special attention to the image is in such cases where the image inexplicable comes to excrete fragrant holy oil, referred to as myrrh, which is collected and used to anoint the sick who are also prayed for, so that they may receive healing (James 5:14), or for other similarly important reasons. Even then, veneration tends to be directed at the person symbolized in the image and/or God Who resides in him or her, or them (if it is an image of a group of saints). So yes, you're correct in feeling that the image itself is nothing important. But the person or event depicted is important, which is why veneration of them is rendered, and appropriate.

 

[Cis.jd]

So all the examples...i am only asking for 1 example, only 1..where praying to or with the dead by anyone in the word is honored. Lets say in the new testament.

If it is not in the bible...it is an extrabiblical belief. All extra biblical beliefs can be argued one way or another since it is grey matter.

Then how can you be so certain your extrabiblical belief is correct...cuz its Tradition of man?

There is no where in the Bible where God "honors" someone for invoking his Saints, but at the same time it is a logical fallacy to base your stance on this. Because as I said, i can flip this on you and ask for a verse where God condemns or refutes that Saints in heaven can't pray for those on earth. The whole topic was about the scriptural validity of the practice not if God gives rewards for it.

You are better off just arguing that regardless of biblical or judeo-christian history, you need empirical evidence which isn't a problem.

 

[truefiction1]

Watch your implications here. Telling someone their physical or psychological issues are a result of lack of faith can get you in trouble on this forum.

That's not being implied here, because even if a person has great faith, God's wisdom prevails, so that where God wills it we are to continue to receive whatever "medicine" (physical infirmities and suffering - see the parable of the rich man and Lazarus) we need from our brief sojourn in this world to be prepared for the unutterable glory we are to partake of in His Kingdom. Faith is not the ultimate goal for us. Love is the greatest gift, and there simply is no Love without suffering. God Loves by being tortured, mocked, lied about, and murdered on the Cross. So even for God in the flesh, Love involves great suffering. Lazarus suffered greatly in this world, but not the rich man. Lazarus rested in Abraham's bosom after death, whereas the rich man suffered in hell.

And this is why I said that even those who didn't believe were healed! How many random "faith" healings do you see today?

I've witnessed some, and have been informed of many others, which I'm strongly inclined to accept in faith because of those thing's I've experienced and seen first hand.

The "true members of Christ's body".... And who are they? You are listed as "Eastern Orthodox". The Roman Catholics think it's them. The Mormon's think it's them. The Seventh Day Adventists think it's them. On and on the list can go.

There is a Church whose existence began when the Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost and filled the Apostles with grace and power. That one Church is of a Living Tradition (Alive by the power of the Holy Spirit) which has not been altered so as to contradict itself (because it cannot be altered in this way, because Christ is its head and the Holy Spirit its breath). Find that Church. I would suggest not looking at any church that was formed at any point after Pentecost.

Do I think there are genuine believers in these churches even if I conclude they have a lot of doctrinal error? Yes I do. Are there a lot of lost people in these churches? Yes there are; but there are a lot of lost people in your typical evangelical, fundamental, baptist, presbyterian, non-denominational, community etc church too.

There are, I'm convinced, true believers who are not of Orthodox persuasion, and are known by God because they know God, being that by God's grace they are very much like God in their hearts, with God residing in them. We know where the Church is, but we don't know where it isn't. Only God knows its boundaries.

Again - define "the church".

It's not possible for me to define the Church, because She (the Church) is the Bride of God. Paul calls this glorious union of Christ and the Church a great "Mystery", because the ability to comprehend such a great wonder of Christ and His Church transcends and defies all human reasoning. Love cannot be circumscribed by rational intellects. It can only be experienced in the Holy Spirit and wondered at, with unutterable awe.

How do we enter into this great mystery? Christ taught us: it is by prayer and fasting:"After being anointed by the Holy Spirit, He was led into the wilderness to fast and pray for 40 days" (Matthew 4:2).

The Church that Christ built upon the Apostolic confession of faith, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, will be the one that preaches and practices unceasing prayer and fasting and keeps such practices as integral to its Holy Tradition for all times, until Christ's return.

 

[Cis.jd]

The same as bowing to statues of them, don't you know those statues can't listen or receive anything from you?. This practice of venerating statues of saints doesn't make any sense to me since the statues are nothing why give them attention as if they were something important eh.

This is psychology-science. People need a visual representation to assist their connection, emotions, and at sometimes focus.

For example, Widows (or just any loved one) have portraits of their deceased husband, and they sometimes hug and kiss the pictures of their deceased loved ones. Why, why give that attention when it is nothing more than paper in print inc?

It's because any type of visual media or representation just causes a much stronger emotional connection.

Statues are in some way like that. As a human, you need a visual representation it's just how our brains are designed to work people just end up thinking better when reminded through the 5 senses. Hence the term "out of sight out of mind".

 

[The Righterzpen]

Pilate wasn't afraid to crucify Jesus. He just couldn't find a very good reason for doing so. Did Pilate believe that Jesus healed anyone? Not really. Pilate was stone dead oblivious to Who Jesus is or what He'd indeed been doing, and quite frankly did not care, because the only thing that resonated with Pilate as being worth anything at all was worldly power. Jesus was a joke to Pilate: a mere foolish dreamer who needed a good flogging to show him who's boss. Pilate's hardened heart and mind darkened with the blindness of sinful passion would not allow him to know Who Christ is, or what mighty power He Is.

If you can't believe me in what I've stated here, then believe the Apostle Paul, who penned the saying found in 1 Corinthians 2:8

You're stating a lot here the Scripture doesn't.

Pilate wasn't afraid to crucify Jesus.

John 19:
7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;

9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.

Pilate's hardened heart and mind darkened with the blindness of sinful passion would not allow him to know Who Christ is, or what mighty power He Is.

John 18:
28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?

30 They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee.

31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:

33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?

34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?

Matthew 27:
17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?

18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

Pilate was a little more savvy than you give him credit for. He know something was "up" and I don't question as to whether or not he'd heard of Jesus before. He was in the very least marginally aware of the culture.

Historically, Pilate was under "probation" at this point over an incident that happened earlier of a revolt that (I believe) was in Samaria.

Now Luke 13 gives us a hint as to what very well may have precipitated this revolt.


There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Now what is this passage talking about? Why did Pilate go into the temple? The clue may be "who's blood .... mingled with their sacrifices." Now if you know anything about the Maccabean revolt and why the Greek king forbid the Jews from performing certain religious rights, you can surmise what they were likely caught with.

Now the Romans didn't interfere with anyone's religious practices unless there were other laws being broken. The prevailing Roman belief was to tolerate everyone's gods so we don't anger one of them and weaken the empire. This is why the Romans were rather religiously tolerant.

Now one of the laws that would have gotten your religious rights interfered with would have been human sacrifices. That had been outlawed in the empire when Augustus came to power. And this is an accusation that follows the Jews back into antiquity. Warnings to them specifically against such practices are in the Scripture.

Now between this event and here comes the leaders with Jesus wanting Him to be crucified; Barabbas is in prison for what? ..... Murder and sedition! Was Barabbas part of this revolt in Samaria as well as this prior incident in the temple? That would seem to be a likely conclusion.

So politically, as you watch what's going on here; Pilate doesn't look so clueless any more, now does he?

Now when we get to the soldiers who tended the crucifixion. Here's where it gets really interesting!

How much do these soldiers really know about prophecy and where did they get that information from?

John 19:24:
They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

Now in the Greek there is no break in that sentence. "...... cast lot for it, whose it shall be that scripture might be fulfilled which said....." Who knew what and how much did they know?

Now "Father forgive them for they know not who it is they do this to."

That's Greek literally says. There's several other interesting nuances about the Greek here. First, it's stated in the form of a colloquial figure of speech that everyone who hears it will know who it's directed at. And guess what; it's in the imperative voice which is - in the form of a command. Who present were those accustom to following commands? Now if you look at the context of where Jesus says this (it's stated just before) "And they crucified him". You can imagine now, what came just before this was likely the centurion's command to the soldiers to commence the execution order. And right on the heals of the centurion commanding the soldiers to do this; Jesus commands the Father to forgive them; because "they know not who it is they do this to."

Now Jesus dies, there's an earthquake, the ground splits open, half of the hill slides into the valley, the veil of the temple is torn and the soldiers all witness this.

Now the temple faced east and in order for them to see this happen, they had to be on the Mount of Olives.

Matthew 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Yes - Jesus was crucified on the Mount of Olives!

Now this verse in 1 Corinthians that you quoted. Do you know what that verse really means?

1 Corinthians 2:7-8 - Now this is a fascinating passage. I’d never noticed this before as related to the context of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit; but it explains why the Romans crucified Christ.

“… we speak (present indicative active voice - means present tense is being currently accomplished by the subject of the verb tied to the time of speaking) the wisdom of God upon the mystery, the hidden (perfect participle passive - perfect participle stresses the state brought about by the finished result of an action. Passive voice means the action was performed by someone other than the subject.) which God ordained before the world unto our glory:”

So what this verse means, is that Paul is speaking of a mystery that had been hidden; but is no longer hidden, which God had ordained before the world unto our glory.

What had God ordained before the world? The mystery.

Why is it a glory unto us? It’s a glory unto us, because God has chosen to reveal what had previously been hidden.

When did He do that? He did it at Pentecost. The agent of action of the revealing of that mystery is the Holy Spirit.

The next verse explains the result: “Which none of the princes of this world knew because if they had known, they wouldn’t have crucified the Lord of glory.”

This here verse gives one fascinating insight as to why the Holy Spirit was not poured out prior to the resurrection. Because if that mystery had been known by humanity because of the pouring forth of the Spirit, the atonement would have never happened because those appointed to the task would not have performed it.

 

[Tutorman]

Before i answer this.


Please provide me just 1 example in the whole bible were someone is praying with or to someone who has passed on. And that it was honored.

Please provide me with examples of people praying with alive people.

Please provide me examples of a Godly man like David after Gods own heart that prayed to anyone but God. Are there examples of people praying to or with those who have passed on that were not corrected?

Not everything is in your Bible and multiple examples have been provided from Scriptures yet you deny them. Does throwing pearls sound familiar? At this point you are to firmly entrenched in lies of evanglism to believe anything else

 

[Tutorman]

Then how can you be so certain your extrabiblical belief is correct...cuz its Tradition of man?

No the tradition of men are you all thinking everything must be in the Bible when you can't so even from the Bible that everything must be in it. It is evangelicals that produce traditions of man not Traditional Christians

 

[Natsumi Lam]

No the tradition of men are you all thinking everything must be in the Bible when you can't so even from the Bible that everything must be in it. It is evangelicals that produce traditions of man not Traditional Christians

Hu?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Not everything is in your Bible and multiple examples have been provided from Scriptures yet you deny them. Does throwing pearls sound familiar? At this point you are to firmly entrenched in lies of evanglism to believe anything else

Sorry no examples were provided that shows a man of God talking to those who have passed on ...with and to in prayer...with God honoring it. Not 1. So you have examples from your bible? Ones that God honored? Then maybe i can see where your foundation rests.

Thus, the tradition is extrabiblical; therefore it could be considered arguable and a tradition of man.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

This is psychology-science. People need a visual representation to assist their connection, emotions, and at sometimes focus.

For example, Widows (or just any loved one) have portraits of their deceased husband, and they sometimes hug and kiss the pictures of their deceased loved ones. Why, why give that attention when it is nothing more than paper in print inc?

It's because any type of visual media or representation just causes a much stronger emotional connection.

Statues are in some way like that. As a human, you need a visual representation it's just how our brains are designed to work people just end up thinking better when reminded through the 5 senses. Hence the term "out of sight out of mind".

Do you have a biblical example of God allowing and honoring this?

 

[prodromos]

Sorry no examples were provided that shows a man of God talking to those who have passed on ...with and to in prayer...with God honoring it.

We have the example of Christ on Mt Tabor, talking to Moses and Elijah.

 

[Loyce KG]

My experience and the experience of millions of Orthodox Christians says otherwise.

Thankfully we don't rely on your experiences for discernment of truth. We rely solely on the Word of God. Jesus said, in the last days many false prophets, false Christs will arise. We don't rely on miracles coming from praying to the dead to say it's truth.

 

[Loyce KG]

This is psychology-science. People need a visual representation to assist their connection, emotions, and at sometimes focus.

For example, Widows (or just any loved one) have portraits of their deceased husband, and they sometimes hug and kiss the pictures of their deceased loved ones. Why, why give that attention when it is nothing more than paper in print inc?

It's because any type of visual media or representation just causes a much stronger emotional connection.

Statues are in some way like that. As a human, you need a visual representation it's just how our brains are designed to work people just end up thinking better when reminded through the 5 senses. Hence the term "out of sight out of mind".

Then what's faith for?
2 Cor 5:7, For we walk by faith, not by sight.
For as many as are LED by the Spirit, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:14

"Out of sight,out of mind" means you base your belief on what you see which is contrary to scripture. We don't think better when reminded through our visual senses. We have the Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth (John 16). Not the eyes, nose, ears etc.

 

[Loyce KG]

No the tradition of men are you all thinking everything must be in the Bible when you can't so even from the Bible that everything must be in it. It is evangelicals that produce traditions of man not Traditional Christians

“Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my strength and my Redeemer.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭19:14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate in it day and night, that you may observe to do according to ALL that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.”
‭‭Joshua‬ ‭1:8‬

The Word of God is complete and clear. No additions nor substractios. All truth is in His Word. Everything we need to know and what He deems important for us to know, He has spoken in the Word.

 

[prodromos]

Thankfully we don't rely on your experiences for discernment of truth. We rely solely on the Word of God. Jesus said, in the last days many false prophets, false Christs will arise. We don't rely on miracles coming from praying to the dead to say it's truth.

So where does God's Word say the deceased in Christ are not intercessors?

 

[prodromos]

The Word of God is complete and clear. No additions nor substractios. All truth is in His Word. Everything we need to know and what He deems important for us to know, He has spoken in the Word.

Where is this found in God's Word?

 

[FenderTL5]

The Word of God is complete and clear. No additions nor substractios. All truth is in His Word. Everything we need to know and what He deems important for us to know, He has spoken in the Word.

Show me in scripture where the Apostle Paul is dead.