Saints who Protect

[The Righterzpen]

Who says it doesn't fall into the "spiritual realm". Do Christians really have a monopoly in this area?

Well, in order for it to fall into the "spiritual realm"; if it's not "real" meaning "of God" would that not mean it's demonic? And if you are a Christian who's been translated out of the kingdom of Satan, the only other option is that it's some sort of natural phenomena.

 

[bèlla]

We can only take for absolute truth what we read of the Scripture of such type events; not what tradition tells us. I hear lots of people from all sorts of faith backgrounds saying all kinds of things that I'm skeptical of.

This is why we are told to "test the spirits" because not all come from God. Satan disguising himself as an angel of light is a very real thing.

Your comments remind me of a thread on centering prayer that I posted on a few months ago. Some sang its praises and declared it harmless. Others shared warnings and spoke of its roots in eastern beliefs.

When tradition is mentioned the discussion usually includes the behaviors of others who've gone before. People whose days weren't spent in the world as a rule. Most were wholly invested in religious orders where prayer and study composed a significant portion of their day. Far greater than those outside their confines.

Practically speaking, we know that the violinist who devotes six hours of their day to their instrument will be profoundly different from the person who assigns far less. Her capacity and relationship with the apparatus is deepened through the constancy of time and input.

And I can attest that when the scope of my day was largely devoted to God my spirit operated at a different level than it does at present. When prayer and study was the bulk of my activity the constant immersion of thought and heart to things of God warranted different responses than when my attention is more divided.

I've had an opportunity to spend time at a Trappistine monastery. I have never encountered a greater sense of peace in a physical place than I did with them. So much so I wanted to stay. Given that experience I can grasp how mystical encounters spring forth. The routine and submersion create an environment for its occurrence and a requisite covering in tow.

But I cannot attest that their activities are indicative of what I should perform in my daily life. Nor can I accurately say without doubt that my attempts to do so would yield a similar result.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Overall, my days are quiet. There was a period after my deliverance where spiritual activity was more prevalent. But it was largely related to developing the spiritual gifts I've been given. I needed to learn how to discern what was good and evil. I couldn't rely on feelings. Learning to listen to my spirit with the Word in tow was paramount.

Because I'm sealed in Christ, I can never be afflicted in the way I was. However, there are instances when praying for someone (or a cause), sharing a Word or passing along information to aid an individual who's spiritually vexed when I'll encounter darkness. The goal in these scenarios is my silence.

But it's my belief that the Lord permitted my suffering for greater reasons aside from my freedom and person. If I'm in a position to assist someone I should do so. Even if the result of my involvement is discomfort. If I detect a serious situation I'll inquire about my involvement in prayer.



I'm sorry to hear of your accident. Have you made a full recovery?



That's an incredible experience. Do you believe you were speaking with Jesus or someone holy? I believe mystical encounters take place but it isn't a subject I rush towards. If you understand my meaning.



Why do you think he said that?



I have never personally experienced the same. But that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I believe these incidents have a higher purpose. A reason our finite minds can't conceive. During my spiritual attack I frequently prayed aloud while sleeping. I heard myself talking and knew they were verses. But I can't say why and I didn't have the breadth of scripture that I possess at present. My daughter would sleep with me on occasion and echoed the same. If I had to guess I'd say it was my spirit praying on my behalf.

While I acknowledge my experiences I don't immerse myself in them. I don't believe its God's intention for me to do so. The unknown has an uncanny way of sparking curiosity in wayward souls and those lacking maturity or discernment. Much of this hails for a hunger for God. But I'd rather lead them towards Him the right way.

Totally agree with you!

My life is pretty quiet too. That's why I say I'm not one to go looking for ghost, angels or demons under every rock. If I can't find something as being valid in the Scripture, than I tend to conclude that if someone truly born again experiences it, than there's some natural explanation for it. Scripture goes before experience or any feelings I have about experiences.

I believe the demonic world is real, and having watched shows like "Ghost Hunters" I've seen some footage they've produced that if it's indeed real and not hoaxed - I can't explain it.

I've also "felt" oppression of what I assessed to be demonic forces. This happened just before my mother died. She'd come home from the hospital and on this one day when I came to visit, as soon as I opened the door there was this extremely oppressive presence in the house. The first thing that popped into my head is in Revelation when it talks about opening the bottomless pit and all I could picture was gobs of demons pouring out. I asked my dad if he felt it too and he said "yes"; as well as other people in the family felt it. Mom was just bitter and angry and hateful particularly toward me and she didn't hide it. It didn't scare me, it just made me kind of nauseous.

The only other time I "felt" anything that was "just not right" was when someone took me to some New Age thing when I was a teenager. I'd just become a believer like a couple of months before this and this friend of mine took me to this - she descried it as "a meditation". I went in and sat through it and said - something here just aint right. Never went to anything else like that with her again. So that's pretty much been my experience I'd say encountering the forces of darkness.

Now I've even sat in Mosques and Synagogues etc during religious services, when people were praying and didn't feel creeped out about that.

Have I made a full recovery from the car accident?
No. I'm permanently disabled; BUT I'm looking forward to being able to run on the other side of eternity!

Do I believe I'd encountered Jesus or an angel or some other holy person?
I tend to lean toward "no" on that. It's possible, but am I going to be quick to jump on - ohh that was it! Because I certainly understand what you mean when you say it's not a subject you rush towards. I tend to "err on the side of caution". At this point it's one of those experiences I chalk up to - could be the result of a natural phenomena.

I also agree with you that incidences like this have a higher purpose. Even if it's just to keep us going because our work on earth aint over! And I think that's the purpose this served. What ever happened and who or what ever it was that told me my son needed me - that was defiantly true!

And I totally agree, it also takes wisdom to know what's a spiritual issue that needs to be addressed as so, and what isn't. My son has epilepsy and every once in a while he will see things that aren't there; and dimes to donuts, it's a seizure. It's very infrequent and sometimes he will wonder if it's a dream, because they usually happen when he's going to sleep or waking up. And it's the same thing. He sees grey faces or what looks to him like grey people. I've done some research on it and that's actually in the medical literature. It's a type of seizure that happens in the occipital lobe.

So....

Why do I think the chaplain thought it was good that I didn't remember what I'd said? Probably because I didn't make any sense. LOL. I remember him asking me if I was Catholic and I said no and he said: "Oh, OK". And he looked a little puzzled. And I could see where he might ask / think that if he's talking to someone who thinks they're seeing visions. I think I'm the one who told him that of what ever I'd said, or thought I saw; it was probably the drugs. He laughed. We had a good conversation. He was what I'd call a "run of the mill" evangelical type Baptist preacher. I told him that I went to an Orthodox Presbyterian church and I was doctrinally reformed / doctrines of grace / calvinistic theologically, but was more of a believers' baptism proponent than "covenant theology". And he knew what all that meant so. I think the clarification was good for him that we ended up having more in common belief wise than he thought we had the first night he met me. And he did say that I was not making a whole lot of sense the night before and that the staff could not tell if I was hallucinating, was this a result of a brain injury, or was I mentally ill?

I do have PTSD and I did have a traumatic brain injury. I have damage to the occipital lobe and cerebellum which to this day affect my balance and my handwriting, as well as my ability to draw. For the first month or so after the accident I could not remember what day it was. Was it morning or afternoon. I'd fall asleep and wake up and feel like I'd been asleep for days. It was better once I went to rehab, because they'd wake you up and say - "OK, now you have to go to rehab". So because the days were more structured in physical therapy; it was easier to keep track of time. I couldn't keep track on my own though, the nurses had to write it all down on a board for me. They'd put down the date, day, shift, AM/PM what was coming up next - breakfast / lunch / dinner. Eventually it came back to me; but that was very frustrating. I still go through phases when I mix things up. It's not real frequent but it happens. I have a calendar in my kitchen that if it's not on the calendar than it doesn't happen! So yeah, definitely long term effects from this accident.

And yes - reiterate again - my first inclination to answer my questions is to study the Scripture!

Amen and Amen!

 

[truefiction1]

Then why bother with asking the "saints". Christ opened a direct line to Him. He is given all authority..in heaven and earth... I'm not going to ask the mail boy if it's the manager is the one with the authority....

Why did the Apostle Paul pray for the saints in his Churches, and why did he 6 times in his Epistles ask them to pray for Him? Didn't Paul have a direct line to Jesus too? Why did Paul bother asking them to pray for Him if having a direct line to God means that it's a bothersome waste of time?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Your comments remind me of a thread on centering prayer that I posted on a few months ago. Some sang its praises and declared it harmless. Others shared warnings and spoke of its roots in eastern beliefs.

When tradition is mentioned the discussion usually includes the behaviors of others who've gone before. People whose days weren't spent in the world as a rule. Most were wholly invested in religious orders where prayer and study composed a significant portion of their day. Far greater than those outside their confines.

Practically speaking, we know that the violinist who devotes six hours of their day to their instrument will be profoundly different from the person who assigns far less. Her capacity and relationship with the apparatus is deepened through the constancy of time and input.

And I can attest that when the scope of my day was largely devoted to God my spirit operated at a different level than it does at present. When prayer and study was the bulk of my activity the constant immersion of thought and heart to things of God warranted different responses than when my attention is more divided.

I've had an opportunity to spend time at a Trappistine monastery. I have never encountered a greater sense of peace in a physical place than I did with them. So much so I wanted to stay. Given that experience I can grasp how mystical encounters spring forth. The routine and submersion create an environment for its occurrence and a requisite covering in tow.

But I cannot attest that their activities are indicative of what I should perform in my daily life. Nor can I accurately say without doubt that my attempts to do so would yield a similar result.

I think it's certainly valid to be noting that people in the past did not have the ease of access to the acquisition of knowledge that we have today. The first concordances were written - what maybe 150 years ago? Study was very labor intensive and relied much more on an individual's ability to memorize things.

Today, we can get on the Internet and find within seconds every place in the Scripture where the term "last day" is used. What we can now do with a computer program took scholars lifetimes to accomplish in history past. And make no mistake - it is absolutely a gift from God the ability that we have to do this! For as much poo poo is on the Internet - it is the greatest research tool and library humanity has ever collected.

So yes, a lot of what people learned by wrote in centuries passed was passed along through tradition; which..... has its downside! Once the printing press came along and the Bible became accessible to the common man - that was a game changer. That and the propagation of literacy and the spread of humanistic concepts like "public education". Those were absolute game changers. "Knowledge shall increase.... " isn't just about medicine, technology and our understanding of the material world. We are incredibly blessed in this generation.

Now if we don't do something stupid like blow ourselves up with nuclear bombs! LOL

Seriously though, I would not be surprised if we are the generation who sees Christ return.

 

[truefiction1]

Those who've passed into eternity do not bear the attributes of God any more than we do on earth. So why would we think our requests of them to pray for us would make our prayers more worthy? In the end God will do what God will do anyways. I've come to the conclusion that prayer draws us more into alignment with God's will than it causes God to act upon our behalf. If we ask something of God yet remind ourselves "not my will but Your's be done"; there's no way we end up outside of His will. Not to say our lack of foresight or understanding may still find us in situations that would behove us to admit that we didn't listen very carefully; yet what man may do in his own shortsightedness, God still uses to His purposes. This is why "all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to His purpose."



You are correct. We as created entities will never have God-like powers.

I guess this statement answers my earlier question, which was as follows: "Is it not possible, or even likely, that you vastly underestimate the effects of God's grace in His saints and the power that His grace bestows upon them?"

Which begs the question: Is it possible that many people overlook the reality of the Life in Christ, in which saints pray for one another, and for others, because that is the Way that God wanted for us from the very foundation of the world, and that Love being expressed through intercessory prayer was meant by God to be our way of Life from before the ages?

Of course it is. We pray for each other. It's what we do. It's what God has willed for us from His place in Eternity, and so we do it, in addition to praying to God, which He also wills for us to do, of course.

 

[bèlla]

That's why I say I'm not one to go looking for ghost, angels or demons under every rock. If I can't find something as being valid in the Scripture, than I tend to conclude that if someone truly born again experiences it, than there's some natural explanation for it. Scripture goes before experience or any feelings I have about experiences.

I had just come to a point of believing in God when my situation began. I was on the cusp of feeling the same about Christ. And the initial activities weren't bad. It "seemed" harmless. It wasn't until I listened to a Christian audiobook that things went awry. Because of my numerous experiences with other religions I had difficulty understanding that some teachings weren't as they appeared. I needed to see what was behind them. If a stranger told me this it's unlikely I'd listen. I had to experience the truth myself.

I believe the demonic world is real, and having watched shows like "Ghost Hunters" I've seen some footage they've produced that if it's indeed real and not hoaxed - I can't explain it.

I don't watch those programs. They give me a strange sense of foreboding. I believe Satan uses them to spark interest in the supernatural. Venturing into evil settings doesn't mean you'll be unscathed. Most people have no idea there's something near or attached. How would you unless the spirit produced physical phenomenon that defied explanation. That rarely happens early on. But over time it usually does.

Mom was just bitter and angry and hateful particularly toward me and she didn't hide it. It didn't scare me, it just made me kind of nauseous.

Mercy. I'm sorry to hear that. I believe it's doubly hard to be on the receiving end of something along those lines when it hails from a loved one. Given your description it sounds like a spirit of malice. It's extremely vile. You can feel the hatred oozing from the person.

I went in and sat through it and said - something here just aint right. Never went to anything else like that with her again. So that's pretty much been my experience I'd say encountering the forces of darkness.

The Holy Spirit was with you. I wasn't big on meditation but I remember one incident when I tried to do it with someone else. And something was off. The energy felt weird and I stopped. I had a disturbing dream that day about a strange girl who wasn't who she appeared to be. She was very evil and taunting me. Later on I was asked about the dream. The individual acknowledged she didn't have dark hair as a child and admitted it was blonde (like the girl in my dream). I knew it was in reference to her as did she. Talk about 99 problems!

Now I've even sat in Mosques and Synagogues etc during religious services, when people were praying and didn't feel creeped out about that.

I've never been to a mosque but haven't had negative experiences at a synagogue and I've been to several.

Have I made a full recovery from the car accident? No. I'm permanently disabled; BUT I'm looking forward to being able to run on the other side of eternity!

That's a beautiful image!

I tend to lean toward "no" on that. It's possible, but am I going to be quick to jump on - ohh that was it! Because I certainly understand what you mean when you say it's not a subject you rush towards. I tend to "err on the side of caution". At this point it's one of those experiences I chalk up to - could be the result of a natural phenomena.

In many respects it's too high to contemplate save the recognition that something happened. It isn't the sort of thing I'd fix my thoughts on.

It leaves you to question how people knowingly choose evil. It's one thing to be confused and another to embrace Lucifer as your BFF. What does that really say about their mind and heart to be at home with such? We know the answer in the sense of intellectually knowing but it is inconceivable nonetheless.

And he did say that I was not making a whole lot of sense the night before and that the staff could not tell if I was hallucinating, was this a result of a brain injury, or was I mentally ill?

If it's necessary for you to make sense of the Holy Spirit will bring clarity in His timing. I was initially led to Job when I questioned my experiences. But in hindsight, that was less about the need to understand that suffering exists. He was providing an example of Job's heart in light of it all. He never blamed God. Nor did I. Why has hidden dangers as I'm sure you'd understand.

It's amazing how grace can shape a man's heart and mind. I would never perceive you were dealing with these things in your replies. This is faith personified.

 

[truefiction1]

The Gospels instruct us to pray for others. They tell us to pray for those who spitefully use and persecute us. Why? Because this is the exact means that God has chosen for us from His Eternal abode to learn how to love others as we love ourselves. Thus, we must pray for others in order to become (by grace) as God is (by nature). God is Love.

Who of us would imagine that saints who have passed and are in the presence of Christ, their souls burning with Divine Love made present in them by the grace of God, would not pray for us, especially if it were God's will for them to pray for us? The Gospels tell us that St. Paul (the Apostle to the gentiles) desired to depart (this life) in order to be with Christ where He is. Who of us would imagine that other saints are not also with Christ where He is? Who could imagine that they would not be praying for us right now, as we run this great race in the sight of this "great cloud of witnesses" which surrounds us (Hebrews 12:1)?

I can't personally imagine things being any different than what I've come to know in my own experience, which is not just personal experience alone, but the shared experience of all of the faithful members in the body of Christ since its beginning.

 

[NBB]

My guess is that saints protect you the same way that angels do or that God does.

Angels need to get close to us to protect us, God is omnipresent, so he can be in all places, you are saying the dead saints come to us to protect? leaving heaven or whatever place. i find that dangerous to believe as such.

 

[truefiction1]

Well, we don't. That's why it's a pointless question to ask.

See Isaiah 8:18-20

Well, in our defense, we do know, and we can know if their prayers are answered. If I asked the Theotokos, the ever-virgin Mary, to pray to God that a certain woman's medically incurable form of stage four cancer to be cured by God's power, and God did in fact promptly cure her with His Divine power, then I need not have any more evidence of the effectiveness of her intercessions. This really did happen to me, and to the woman. But you won't believe just because I said that it's so. That's just how this stuff works. A lot of people witnessed the miracles of Christ, and spoke very publicly of them. But if certain people didn't want to believe in Christ, then His miracles were of no avail in helping them to see what was taking place right before their very eyes. They still accused Him of breaking Scripture. Many miracles happen in the living and ongoing experience of the Church - all of the time - so that it is as if the supernatural has become natural to us. Many of these miracles come by the intercessions of saints in heaven which were sought by the faithful here on earth. But the miracles will just be poo-pooed by anyone not willing to see them, and we will be accused, just as our Master (Matthew 10:24-25), of breaking Scripture, because we ask for the prayers of our family in Christ who have died. Some things will just never change.

And that verse from the Book of Isaiah is a reference to something that is utterly different than asking for intercessory prayers of our brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers in Christ. Prayer is prayer, and asking for prayer is asking for prayer. It's not an inquiry as made by necromancers, spirit mediums, or the like.

 

[Tutorman]

It seems like the whole conflict revolves around the fallacy that people dont die but live after even being murdered. This is the foundation of the concept that it is ok to talk to these "live" people.

So God's promise that we have eternal life and life everlasting is a lie, I see. The greater Church has been wrong for centuries upon centuries but man corrected where God lied a mere 300 years ago. Phew God's Church was sure in error along time. It's a good thing man told God what's what and that we don't live like God promised

 

[Natsumi Lam]

So God's promise that we have eternal life and life everlasting is a lie, I see. The greater Church has been wrong for centuries upon centuries but man corrected where God lied a mere 300 years ago. Phew God's Church was sure in error along time. It's a good thing man told God what's what and that we don't live like God promised

Alive in Christ means that Christ restored the connection between man and God. It does not mean we can talk to people who have passed on.

A question..who did the Jewish people pray to? Did David ever sing, pray or try to communicate with those who passed on? I

If Jews sought God...and we have the Helper now...why do we ever need to go to anyone except Our Father?

Did any men of God in the entire Bible ever pray to those who have passed on?

Why are we to pray..." Our Father who art in heaven"?

 

[NBB]

Alive in Christ means that Christ restored the connection between man and God. It does not mean we can talk to people who have passed on.

A question..who did the Jewish people pray to? Did David ever sing, pray or try to communicate with those who passed on? I

If Jews sought God...and we have the Helper now...why do we ever need to go to anyone except Our Father?

Did any men of God in the entire Bible ever pray to those who have passed on?

Why are we to pray..." Our Father who art in heaven"?

The only time i think someone tried to speak with the dead it was a very ugly affair, i don't know if apart from Saul there are other examples.

If consulting the dead was normal for God, why saul needed to consult with medium he should have prayed to Samuel or consult a prophet of God to consult with Samuel and thats it.

The way catholic do it, is consulting or asking from them with a belief they are not going to respond but actually pray to God?? i don't know it seems like asking to a dead person something, and consulting with a dead person is the same, since what is consulting? asking something, and a dead person is someone who died, even if they are still with their soul and spirit alive with God.

Sorry it just how this gave me the impression, i don't want to accuse of witchcraft to anyone, it just me i understand that asking to a person who died something and consulting or trying to contact a dead person is very similar in my mind.

 

[prodromos]

No one is consulting anyone when asking the Saints to pray.
Seriously, can no one argue their point without erecting strawmen to knock down? It really gets tiresome.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

And yet, Scripture does point us to the reality that the Saints are alive, care about us, are still One with us, though seperated, and that as they are alive in Christ and just, their prayers can do great things.

If only these Radical Reformation Protestants at least subscribed to the Apostles Creed, then things would be at least half way cleared up. (Sheol / the Bosom of Abraham has been emptied, there is no soul sleep anymore assuming if that ever existed in the first place etc.).


Harrowing of Hell - Wikipedia

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Hi Family,

I was searching Amazon for art supplies. I came across a pendant that had a saint who was to protect you.

How exactly does someone believe a saint can protect you?

What are the logistics?

Why cant God be the sole protector?

Do you believe it diminishes the divinity of God?

~Natsumi Lam~

I recall that when the "cloud of witnesses" is referred to in one of the passages in scripture, this is understood in some traditions to mean that the saints are still watching over us and praying for us.

Since the hope of our faith is the resurrection, it is reasonable to think that "we will not sleep"

Though I don't pray to saints, I don't see it as diminishing the divinity of God any more than asking a saint in a human body to pray for me.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

No one is consulting anyone when asking the Saints to pray.
Seriously, can no one argue their point without erecting strawmen to knock down? It really gets tiresome.

If you are tired of it...stay out of the thread. Easy as that. Every thread has es men of da straw.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I don't watch those programs. They give me a strange sense of foreboding. I believe Satan uses them to spark interest in the supernatural. Venturing into evil settings doesn't mean you'll be unscathed. Most people have no idea there's something near or attached. How would you unless the spirit produced physical phenomenon that defied explanation. That rarely happens early on. But over time it usually does.

I don't watch a whole lot of that kind of stuff any longer. Once in a while, if something strikes my interest I'll watch it. I like the shows that try to debunk stuff because every once in a while you can find gems in these that gives reasonable explanation for phenomena that other people think is "supernatural".

For example; those little balls of light that you'll see on camera in some of these shows that people think are spirits? They're not. They're balls of electromagnetic energy that's released by the earth's crust in places where there is seismic activity. I'd seen a documentary on this. Seismologists note that just before and just after earthquakes there's an increase in sightings of ghosts, fairies, angels, demons, aliens, jinn, my dead uncle Joe (what ever the prevailing cultural belief system is). That is a statistically measurable psychological phenomena that's a result of a natural event.

They wanted to test their hypothesis that these occurrences were the result of electromagnetic energy fields, so they solicited volunteers who were basically atheists who did not believe in the supernatural. They brought them into a room and put what looked like a motorcycle helmet on them that had electrodes attached to it like an EEG and talked them through the experiment. And yes, they felt scared, they felt the presences of something, they felt like they couldn't move and then they saw grayish looking humanoid forms. They could tell the experimenters to stop the experiment any time they wanted because they could still communicate with the people running the experiment. It was a very fascinating documentary.

So yes, this stuff is a real phenomena.

I actually encountered one of these light orbs in my living room at like 2 Am after i'd taken some Tylenol, shut off the lights and was headed back upstairs to bed. It "materialized" on the other side of the room. (I don't know if it came through the wall or not?) and came right at me. I moved my head and it went past my left ear. I felt the heat of the energy field, and the hair on the back of my neck stood up, but it didn't scare me because I knew what it was.

"Oh look, an electromagnetic energy ball" Wizzzzz..... "That was freaky!" LOL

Electromagnetic energy fields can do all sorts of weird things to people. If you pass through an electromagnetic energy field and depending on where it passes through your body, it could cause you to see things that aren't there. It may "zap" you. It may knock you out. If it's a large enough discharge it may injure you. It can drain batteries, shut car engines down, cause transformers to explode and all kinds of fun stuff. It operates a lot like lightning. And if you are in a vicinity where it has the chance to connect through you, it will do that because you have electrical impulses in your body.

Now houses have electromagnetic energy fields in them because of electrical wiring. And especially old houses if they have "knob and tube" wiring in them, those sources still may be "hot" if they have not been properly disconnected. A lot of contractors who work on old houses use the same sort of equipment as these "ghost hunters" (electromagnetic field detectors) to make sure when they shut the electric off; it's really off. Well most "hauntings" are in attics and basements because electrical charge runs on a circuit and the highest concentrations of electromagnetic energy are at the tops and bottoms of those circuits. (I.E attics and basements.)

Now some paranormal investigators know this stuff and if they are good at what they do; they know this stuff. The team on "Ghost Hunters" (now I don't know if the show is still on the air) knows some of this stuff.

Now if an electromagnetic energy field is of the right configuration to act as a magnet, it can cause things with certain metal properties to move on their own. This happened on an episode of "Ghost Hunters". They were in a reservist unit armory in Buffalo NY. And I know this place, I've driven past it many times.

What happened was the team was walking a catwalk that spanned the equipment floor where the reserve uint parked its trucks and stuff. There were a couple of soldiers, one of the paranormal investigators, the camera man was recording this and the sound guy was behind the soldiers and the investigator. The soldiers were telling the investigator the weird things that happen in the armory. The sound guy had a camera bag around his body and something in both hands. The camera caught this.

As they were walking, the camera bag swung up on its own and hit the guy in the head. He fell over backwards, having the wind knocked out of him. (He's lucky he didn't fall of the catwalk onto the equipment floor.) On his back was a red mark that looked sort of like the spider veins of a lightning bolt. I backed up the recording several times and watched it in slow motion. It was very clear this was not a planned thing. The sound guy didn't do this to himself and the team did not do this to him.

The most likely thing that happened is that he passed through an electromagnetic field with enough magnetic power in it to interact with the metal of the objects in the equipment bag and this is what made the equipment bag move.

Now some of the reason I would watch this stuff was to see if I could really figure out what was going on, because at that time I was still of the belief that because the canon of Scripture was closed; that God was not allowing Satan to break the supernatural. I did not believe God was breaking the supernatural barrier by sending angels in physical form, that people could see; knowing what they were. So naturally if God is not breaking the supernatural barrier; He's not going to allow Satan to either.

Where I stand on this one today - I'm not sure? I'm still trying to Bible study this one out. What I did see on one episode of "Ghost Hunters" though did make me reassess whether or not my hypothesis about God or Satan breaking the supernatural in our (post Scripture canon is now complete) era was true?

On tape they did catch partial manifestations of quasi humanoid forms. Now the people watching the camera at the time didn't see this. They "felt" something but did not see anything. One of the cameras wasn't even manned. It was just set up on a room recoding. These were not still cameras, this was video footage. It was only when they went back and looked at the camera footage did they see this. These forms only manifest from about half way down and they were dark transparent figures with legs running across the room or away from the camera.

The researchers tried to debunk this. Was this someone playing a trick on them? (They were spread out in an abandon asylum.) Yet they came to the conclusion that they could not debunk it.

Now granted, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are being honest with us and have not created this evidence themselves. I can't say for sure that I know that; but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Now where does this leave my hypotheses today? Even if I am correct and the supernatural barrier is not being broken and hasn't been from the point Scripture was completed; this still doesn't mean that Satan isn't going to attempt. And if we can actually catch something like this on a video recording device - maybe that tells us something about the "material" connection of angels and demons to this current world?

Is the way angels "materialized" in the past; by taking on an atomic structure around their being to be able to be seen and touched by us in the material world? It's sort of like us putting on a garment. They can dawn a physical form and un-manifest it; yet can also bear the ability to allow certain entities to see them and other's not. (Like Balaam's donkey. She saw the angel, but he didn't.) How does this work and how does it happen? I don't know if the Scripture gives us enough information to figure it out?

The other aspect of this that's caught my attention is where God talks about Satan "appearing" with "lying signs and wonders". Because that which would be a genuine manifestation is not permitted any longer - so thus what people see now is a "lying sign and wonder"? Now this could go for visions of Mary, or Rabbi whomever, Mohammad's twin brother, the 250th incarnation of Buddha (what ever it may be)? Any thing that is other than a psychological manifestation of a natural phenomena. Because the door to the supernatural is closed with the final revelation of Scripture - these are all now "lying signs and wonders".

That's my hypothesis - now I don't know if I'm right? It makes "the most" sense to me; but just because it makes sense to me, doesn't mean it's accurate! So, make what you may of my hypothesis; but that was my reason for watching those shows. Could I figure this out? Could I debunk it?

Mercy. I'm sorry to hear that. I believe it's doubly hard to be on the receiving end of something along those lines when it hails from a loved one. Given your description it sounds like a spirit of malice. It's extremely vile. You can feel the hatred oozing from the person.

It was several years after my mother died that I came to the conclusion that the only thing that explained why my mother was the way that she was, was because she was demon possessed. Now my mother had a lot of problems. She was an alcoholic and had an incestious relationship with her own brother well into her adult life. She was the imputes that brought a lot of sexual abuse and neglect into the family I grew up in. According to my father; my brother got his "permission" to abuse his sisters from mom. My dad was a tortured soul. He knew if he left mom, he'd never get custody of his daughters. (This was the 70's.) So yes, mom was pretty messed up and my own conclusion of her justification for this type of behavior was demonic possession; because it just was not logical, beyond the morality question. She had some pretty twisted thoughts about what was OK and what wasn't, although she could clearly tell you what was morally right and what was not. So, my mother has been dead 16 years. I leave it to Divine prerogative what God chose to do with mom in the end. I prayed for her for 15 years. She never repented, never came to believe of any manifestation that anyone could see. She was on a ventilator in a coma for the last 3 days of her life, so what happened in that span, I have no idea; but had not manifested any softening of heart before that.

Talk about 99 problems!

Yes, the woman I went to this mediation with, today shows some serious signs of mental degeneration. I don't know if she has an alcohol problem or she's just getting dementia? She's more sandwiches short of a picnic than she was 30 years ago. Nice person, generous person; but all her "spirits" have left her really flaky.

It leaves you to question how people knowingly choose evil. It's one thing to be confused and another to embrace Lucifer as your BFF. What does that really say about their mind and heart to be at home with such? We know the answer in the sense of intellectually knowing but it is inconceivable nonetheless.

Yep, I hear ya. But you know the wrath of God is revealed from heaven and as much as they will never admit to you that they know condemnation is coming - they know! That's part of the deception. The deception is more on them than it is on anyone else. But that's the way it goes!

If it's necessary for you to make sense of the Holy Spirit will bring clarity in His timing. I was initially led to Job when I questioned my experiences. But in hindsight, that was less about the need to understand that suffering exists. He was providing an example of Job's heart in light of it all. He never blamed God. Nor did I. Why has hidden dangers as I'm sure you'd understand.

I don't think this chaplain meant anything mean by anything he said. If you meet someone for the first time in a hospital bed and they are blabbering half senates that can't string two coherent thoughts together - LOL. It's natural to wonder, are they hallucinating? Is it the head injury? I don't know this person, are they mentally ill? I don't think he was questioning the Holy Ghost. And I wasn't either. I credit God for what ever it was that happened in my brain that stopped the deterioration of my intellect. I could have remained incoherent after the accident and spent the rest of my life in a nursing home; but that didn't happen either. Praise God, my journey isn't over yet!

It's amazing how grace can shape a man's heart and mind. I would never perceive you were dealing with these things in your replies. This is faith personified.

My life has been very...... interesting to say the least. I have lots of stories I could tell you about God's sustaining grace. But this post is long enough! LOL

 

[prodromos]

If you are tired of it...stay out of the thread. Easy as that. Every thread has es men of da straw.

I suppose I could just sit back and let people lie about my faith over and over again.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

I suppose I could just sit back and let people lie about my faith over and over again.

You are the one complaining that it is tiresome...it is ultimately your choice.