Saints who Protect

[Loyce KG]

Show me in scripture where the Apostle Paul is dead.

How is that important to your spiritual growth?

 

[Loyce KG]

Where is this found in God's Word?

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭29:29‬ ‭

“For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:18-19‬ ‭

“Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭30:6‬ ‭

“God’s Word is perfect in every way; how it revives our souls! His laws lead us to truth, and his ways change the simple into wise.

Every one of the Lord’s commands is right; following them brings cheer. Nothing HE says ever needs to be changed.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭19:7, 9‬ ‭

 

[Pavel Mosko]

.......

Hey! I resemble that remark!

I guess if you light on the Calvinism, you might be right. But Calvinists and Lutherans are normally on the opposite side of that confessionally speaking.

 

[FenderTL5]

How is that important to your spiritual growth?

That is a major thrust of this thread, whether the saints are alive or dead, is it not?

 

[Loyce KG]

So where does God's Word say the deceased in Christ are not intercessors?

The basis for your defense of praying to those who passed on in Christ is that they know what we need better and can express it to God since they are in His presence.
The Bible says;
“Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:26-27‬ ‭

Take a look at the story of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. The rich man was certainly not a saint-he is in fact in Hades. But when he tries to make intercession for his five brothers, he is told it is of no use. Abraham and Lazarus on the other hand are both saints-but they can do nothing either. Everything is now up to the will of the five brothers and God.

There is no passage in the O.T or N.T that clearly and inarguably says that Christians who have died can intercede for the living.

 

[Loyce KG]

That is a major thrust of this thread, whether the saints are alive or dead, is it not?

Saints refers to God's people, holy, set apart. The RC definition of the word is quite different from the biblical one.

 

[prodromos]

The basis for your defense of praying to those who passed on in Christ is that they know what we need better and can express it to God since they are in His presence.

No, the basis of our defense is love between all members of Christ's body. I don't know where you got the above from.

The Bible says;
“Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:26-27

‬
That has nothing to do with the question, unless you wish to argue that we should not ask each other to pray for us?

Take a look at the story of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. The rich man was certainly not a saint-he is in fact in Hades. But when he tries to make intercession for his five brothers, he is told it is of no use. Abraham and Lazarus on the other hand are both saints-but they can do nothing either. Everything is now up to the will of the five brothers and God.

The rich man is clearly not in Christ, so not pertinent to the question, nor does it say that Abraham and Lazarus are not able to do anything, you've added that to the Word (naughty). The parable is also describing the situation before Christ's death and resurrection. Death has since been defeated, the strongman has been bound and his house plundered.

There is no passage in the O.T or N.T that clearly and inarguably says that Christians who have died can intercede for the living.

That isn't what I asked, so again not pertinent.

 

[prodromos]

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭29:29‬ ‭

Context is the Old Covenant only, though it doesn't say what you said before either.

“For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:18-19‬ ‭

Context is only the book of Revelations, but even if it referred to the whole of the Bible, it still doesn't say what you claimed.

“Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭30:6‬ ‭

Still not what you claimed

“God’s Word is perfect in every way; how it revives our souls! His laws lead us to truth, and his ways change the simple into wise.

Every one of the Lord’s commands is right; following them brings cheer. Nothing HE says ever needs to be changed.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭19:7, 9‬ ‭

Is this a paraphrase? It reads completely differently to the translations I've read.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I guess if you light on the Calvinism, you might be right. But Calvinists and Lutherans are normally on the opposite side of that confessionally speaking.

That's true, Lutherans are usually more tradition orientated than Presbyterians. Not that Presbyterians don't have their own sets of traditions - not all of which are particularly Biblical either.

 

[truefiction1]

You're stating a lot here the Scripture doesn't.



John 19:
7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;

9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.



John 18:
28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?

30 They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee.

31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:

33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?

34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?

Matthew 27:
17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?

18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

Pilate was a little more savvy than you give him credit for. He know something was "up" and I don't question as to whether or not he'd heard of Jesus before. He was in the very least marginally aware of the culture.

Historically, Pilate was under "probation" at this point over an incident that happened earlier of a revolt that (I believe) was in Samaria.

Now Luke 13 gives us a hint as to what very well may have precipitated this revolt.


There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Now what is this passage talking about? Why did Pilate go into the temple? The clue may be "who's blood .... mingled with their sacrifices." Now if you know anything about the Maccabean revolt and why the Greek king forbid the Jews from performing certain religious rights, you can surmise what they were likely caught with.

Now the Romans didn't interfere with anyone's religious practices unless there were other laws being broken. The prevailing Roman belief was to tolerate everyone's gods so we don't anger one of them and weaken the empire. This is why the Romans were rather religiously tolerant.

Now one of the laws that would have gotten your religious rights interfered with would have been human sacrifices. That had been outlawed in the empire when Augustus came to power. And this is an accusation that follows the Jews back into antiquity. Warnings to them specifically against such practices are in the Scripture.

Now between this event and here comes the leaders with Jesus wanting Him to be crucified; Barabbas is in prison for what? ..... Murder and sedition! Was Barabbas part of this revolt in Samaria as well as this prior incident in the temple? That would seem to be a likely conclusion.

So politically, as you watch what's going on here; Pilate doesn't look so clueless any more, now does he?

Now when we get to the soldiers who tended the crucifixion. Here's where it gets really interesting!

How much do these soldiers really know about prophecy and where did they get that information from?

John 19:24:
They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

Now in the Greek there is no break in that sentence. "...... cast lot for it, whose it shall be that scripture might be fulfilled which said....." Who knew what and how much did they know?

Now "Father forgive them for they know not who it is they do this to."

That's Greek literally says. There's several other interesting nuances about the Greek here. First, it's stated in the form of a colloquial figure of speech that everyone who hears it will know who it's directed at. And guess what; it's in the imperative voice which is - in the form of a command. Who present were those accustom to following commands? Now if you look at the context of where Jesus says this (it's stated just before) "And they crucified him". You can imagine now, what came just before this was likely the centurion's command to the soldiers to commence the execution order. And right on the heals of the centurion commanding the soldiers to do this; Jesus commands the Father to forgive them; because "they know not who it is they do this to."

Now Jesus dies, there's an earthquake, the ground splits open, half of the hill slides into the valley, the veil of the temple is torn and the soldiers all witness this.

Now the temple faced east and in order for them to see this happen, they had to be on the Mount of Olives.

Matthew 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Yes - Jesus was crucified on the Mount of Olives!

Now this verse in 1 Corinthians that you quoted. Do you know what that verse really means?

1 Corinthians 2:7-8 - Now this is a fascinating passage. I’d never noticed this before as related to the context of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit; but it explains why the Romans crucified Christ.

“… we speak (present indicative active voice - means present tense is being currently accomplished by the subject of the verb tied to the time of speaking) the wisdom of God upon the mystery, the hidden (perfect participle passive - perfect participle stresses the state brought about by the finished result of an action. Passive voice means the action was performed by someone other than the subject.) which God ordained before the world unto our glory:”

So what this verse means, is that Paul is speaking of a mystery that had been hidden; but is no longer hidden, which God had ordained before the world unto our glory.

What had God ordained before the world? The mystery.

Why is it a glory unto us? It’s a glory unto us, because God has chosen to reveal what had previously been hidden.

When did He do that? He did it at Pentecost. The agent of action of the revealing of that mystery is the Holy Spirit.

The next verse explains the result: “Which none of the princes of this world knew because if they had known, they wouldn’t have crucified the Lord of glory.”

This here verse gives one fascinating insight as to why the Holy Spirit was not poured out prior to the resurrection. Because if that mystery had been known by humanity because of the pouring forth of the Spirit, the atonement would have never happened because those appointed to the task would not have performed it.

Thank you, I'm aware of these Scriptures. But Pilate was oblivious to Who Jesus is, because He asks Him "What is truth". Truth meant nothing to Pilate. It is only worldly power that was of any value to him. If He had known Who Jesus is, for real, then He would not have asked Him what truth is. Rather, he would have asked Him "Who" is Truth. For he would have known and understood that truth is not a thing, Truth is a Person: Christ (John 14:6), and Pilate, had he really know Christ, would have worshiped Him in the fear of God, and followed Him, rather than rendering Him to be crucified. So do you really think that Pilate was afraid more than just a little? Pilate was only afraid of losing his worldly power over any decision regarding Jesus that could cost him his position and reputation. He did not believe Jesus was Divine, or had Divine power. This is more or less the point I attempted to make before, but it is a digression from the topic of intercessory prayer and the Divine power that it carries. So I hope you don't overlook my other post on account of this digression.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Generally, a bow before an image of a person, or a kiss placed upon the image is not directed at the image itself. It is directed at the person symbolized in the image. The only time any of us would pay special attention to the image is in such cases where the image inexplicable comes to excrete fragrant holy oil, referred to as myrrh, which is collected and used to anoint the sick who are also prayed for, so that they may receive healing (James 5:14), or for other similarly important reasons. Even then, veneration tends to be directed at the person symbolized in the image and/or God Who resides in him or her, or them (if it is an image of a group of saints). So yes, you're correct in feeling that the image itself is nothing important. But the person or event depicted is important, which is why veneration of them is rendered, and appropriate.

Whats the difference between that and Buddhism?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

So where does God's Word say the deceased in Christ are not intercessors?

It is your doctrine that is extrabiblical. We are not saying it is extrabiblical to not do something. If you are going to DO something and it is not in the bible and rest your belief on it...its extrabiblical. Yours is a tradition.

The bible strictly warms us to not communicate with the dead.

 

[W2L]

The bible strictly warms us to not communicate with the dead.

They will say they are not dead, but neither was Samuel dead when Saul summoned the spirit of the prophet.

 

[FenderTL5]

Saints refers to God's people, holy, set apart. The RC definition of the word is quite different from the biblical one.

The price of tea in China (March 9, 2019) is 2000RMB/Kg, to 40RMB/kg

 

[The Righterzpen]

where God wills it we are to continue to receive whatever "medicine" (physical infirmities and suffering - see the parable of the rich man and Lazarus) we need from our brief sojourn in this world to be prepared for the unutterable glory we are to partake of in His Kingdom.

So.... suffering is about learning to love? Is that what you're now trying to say? More suffering makes you love more? That goes along the same lines as "more suffering makes you more grateful".

Well, you know what my experience with that has been? I've seen a lot of suffering. I did clean up after the 1991 Gulf War and bore witness to a lot of destruction.

It didn't make me more loving and grateful though. It made me hate everything America represented to the Middle-East because of how unfairly we dealt with those nations. We sanctioned Iraq for the next ten years; letting millions of people starve to death and die of cancer because we were so (allegedly) afraid of "weapons of mass destruction".

Well, the illuminati oligarchs and their lap dog the MSM, were right on one thing. Iraq did have weapons of mass destruction - that was before February 28, 1991 in the 100 days before when we destroyed them all. (The same ones we sold them 5 years earlier - mind you!) Then we all came home with "Gulf War Syndrome" that the government denied for the next 15 years that it even existed? More vets now have died of complications from the stupid syndrome than were killed in the damn war - all to the "thanks of a grateful nation" - Yeah!

So no, it did not make me more "grateful" or "more loving"; it made me more depressed and disillusioned with a country that didn't seem to me to care.

I was harassed by an employee in a Burger's Bagel shop who literally stood there and made fun of me when I told him to stop screaming because I was in a war and the noise bothered me.

Guess what - well that all changed after 9/11 and suddenly there was a whole hale of a lot of people who knew how I felt!

I will say this though. 9/11 gave me a different perspective on the American people than I had before. I'm still not crazy about the government - and if Trump and military intelligence actually manages to take out the deep state - that would be impressive!

So no, I don't buy that suffering makes us more loving any more than I think we suffer for lack of faith.

Love is the greatest gift, and there simply is no Love without suffering.

God is love and God is eternal. He existed in that love long before there was any suffering. So no, I reject "there simply is no love with out suffering" too.

God Loves by being tortured, mocked, lied about, and murdered on the Cross. So even for God in the flesh, Love involves great suffering.

Jesus was not a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] who loved suffering. He willfully endured being forsaken by the rest of the Godhead and eventually died of having his own Divinity ripped from his existence because He loved the Father; not because there was anything worthy in us.

I'm strongly inclined to accept in faith because of those thing's I've experienced and seen first hand.

Here's another thing I learned from the war. And this aint any different in any war; whether talking Desert Storm, WWII or the "war of religion". Everyone's grandfather and his brother-in-law stormed the beach at Normandy and liberated Dachau. There was a journalist who conducted a little experiment back in early 2000's. He requested anyone who'd participated in D-Day to write him. He got more responses from survivors of D-Day than the number of American service men who actually participated in D-Day. Now aint that fascinating?

Moral of the story - people lie! If anything has been proven over and over again - that has!

Now you know what goes hand in hand with that? The people who were actually there don't tell heroic war stories about it because it was too traumatizing!

Again, I point back to the people who are obviously and verifiably disabled. Why is it always someone who you can't tell is "disabled" who's had cancer cured? You have any idea how many false positives come back on cancer screenings? Thus the reason for multiple tests.

Joni Erikson-Tada talks about "faith healings" in a book of hers. She went to a "faith healing service" at some giant convention center. There were thousands of people there and she said it was herself and about 30 other people in wheelchairs, who were all put in this one section.

Well all the people who "got healed" were ....... over there----->>>>

And what were they told? You just have to have more faith. If you doubt, it won't happen.

And about 20 minutes before the "event" ended; the "staff" of this "faith healer" started to come and get all the people in this section and roll them out. They lined them all up by the elevator. She said she remembered sitting there, looking around, all these people in wheelchairs looking at each other, all knowing - something here is really wrong - but no one would say anything.

Well, many of the "faith healers" of the 80's and 90's have now been exposed for the frauds that they are. (Back to the point about the war - people lie.)

Find that Church. I would suggest not looking at any church that was formed at any point after Pentecost.

Ehhh.... all churches were formed after Pentecost.

Love cannot be circumscribed by rational intellects. It can only be experienced in the Holy Spirit and wondered at, with unutterable awe.

God is a rational entity. We'd have no laws of physics if God was not rational. Feelings can be deceptive and experiences (both positive and negative) are not always what we perceive them to be.

The Church that Christ built upon the Apostolic confession of faith will be the one that preaches and practices unceasing prayer and fasting and keeps such practices as integral to its Holy Tradition for all times, until Christ's return.

Only problem is the Scripture doesn't tell us to define our faith that way.

2 Timothy 3:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

This passage gets quoted a lot, but note verse 17. "perfect" and "thoroughly furnished". There's a notion that goes around religious groups that have traditions they hold of equal authority to the Scripture. The notion that its tradition and Scripture - well that isn't what the Scripture tells you. These two verses tell you that the Scripture is what makes one perfect and thoroughly furnished.

Now why does the Bible set only itself in this role?

That's to avoid over here in Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Make no mistake there are false teachers out there who want to deceive you. Satan wants people to be deceived by religion.

So how do we avoid that?
This brings us to the Bereans in Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

They didn't just take what Paul told them because it was "tradition". No, they took what was said against Scripture they had (the OT) as to what they accepted as truth and doctrine and what didn't line up they rejected.

Now even back when the apostles were preaching there was a lot of false doctrines and false beliefs around. The writers of Scripture wrote about that and warned the people to be careful of who they were listening to.

Now Psalm 119:89 tells us the Bible is an external source. It didn't originate on earth. It's "fixed in heaven" and "holy men of old spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:25 This is why we are to "test the spirits". 1 John 4

And how do we know if "a spirit" is telling us the truth or not? Not by traditions, how we feel or our experiences. We test it by what's written in the Scripture alone!

Here's a "free bee" This passage defines what God considers as "fasting".

Isaiah 58:
2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.

4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord?

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

 

[W2L]

I did clean up after the 1991 Gulf War and bore witness to a lot of destruction.

Was it just america. What role did the UN and other nations play?

 

[Cis.jd]

Then what's faith for?
2 Cor 5:7, For we walk by faith, not by sight.
For as many as are LED by the Spirit, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:14

"Out of sight,out of mind" means you base your belief on what you see which is contrary to scripture. We don't think better when reminded through our visual senses. We have the Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth (John 16). Not the eyes, nose, ears etc.

No, what I am saying has nothing to do with belief and your bringing up about faith is not just irrelevant but shows you barely understood what I said and have 0 understanding about reason or science.

It's pure psychology that human beings have a much stronger focus when there is a visual medium. For you talk about "what about faith" and "lol" at my shows the level of ignorance you have at even science.You think that is false, go ask someone who studies digital media or psychology.

 

[Cis.jd]

Do you have a biblical example of God allowing and honoring this?

read post #229

 

[Natsumi Lam]

read post #229

See 256

 

[Natsumi Lam]

That is a major thrust of this thread, whether the saints are alive or dead, is it not?

Unfortunately yes.