saints of this and that (moved from GT)

[Dorothea]

Hey sister sweetie.
You know of course as usual, I take every pithy thing you say and flog myself with it to see if it hurts.(?)
In my paranoid fashion I see you have profiled me to some degree. (I crack wise from an emotional reflex, in part to soften the conversational edge of what I see as a two level friendly confrontation - emotional & intellectual. The emotional is usualy managed with inflection & non-verbal communication, so we have to filter & share as much of that as we can manage, thru the intellect as well.
So I interject personal asides, anecdotes, thoughts & perceptions to add some chemistry, depth & background to the otherwise pretty emotionaly flatline facts & logic.

Maybe we could profit more from conversation if we remember that being right with scripture isn't always or in all senses, being right with God.
it may be prudent to allow some people some lattitude in recognition of where they are coming from. Maybe that is part of what bein' patient is about.
I'm just talkin' off the top my head here. There's a big game of toss & fetch goin' on in the living room.
I swear I thought I wore my puppy out with the frisbee in the field next door an hour ago. I better make another pot of coffee. It's gonna be a long (happy) day.

 

[Catherineanne]

1 Kings 18:36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command.

Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.

Acts 7:32 I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.' Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.

http://bible.cc/matthew/22-32.htm


When these were written Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were no longer alive, and yet God is asserted as the God of the Living.

See also the Transfiguration, where the Lord has a nice little chat with Abraham and Moses; both alive in Christ.

QED.

 

[Stryder06]

http://bible.cc/matthew/22-32.htm


When these were written Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were no longer alive, and yet God is asserted as the God of the Living.

See also the Transfiguration, where the Lord has a nice little chat with Abraham and Moses; both alive in Christ.

QED.

First: Christ doesn't look at death the same way we do. When Lazarus and the little maiden had died, He said they were sleeping.

Second: At the Transfiguration it was Elijah and Moses, and they were indeed alive, so that doesn't help you out much. Elijah was taken to heaven alive, while Moses was resurrected and then taken to heaven. Both of them were representative of the people who will go to heaven at the end. Some will be taken having never seen death, while others will be resurrected.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

​

http://bible.cc/matthew/22-32.htm


When these were written Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were no longer alive, and yet God is asserted as the God of the Living.

See also the Transfiguration, where the Lord has a nice little chat with Abraham and Moses; both alive in Christ.

QED.

When we make the distinction between a "dead" Christian/saint and an "alive" one. We're only making the distinction between the physical. We're not saying that they are dead to Christ but that they are physically dead to us. And yes, God is God of the living, the question is....does anyone every really die to God? But that's beside the point. Even when God said that He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He doesn't tell us that those 3 intercede for us, which that's what the conversation been about.

 

[narnia59]

First: Christ doesn't look at death the same way we do. When Lazarus and the little maiden had died, He said they were sleeping.

Second: At the Transfiguration it was Elijah and Moses, and they were indeed alive, so that doesn't help you out much. Elijah was taken to heaven alive, while Moses was resurrected and then taken to heaven. Both of them were representative of the people who will go to heaven at the end. Some will be taken having never seen death, while others will be resurrected.

What is your Scriptural source that Moses was resurrected and then taken to heaven?

 

[Philothei]

When we make the distinction between a "dead" Christian/saint and an "alive" one. We're only making the distinction between the physical. We're not saying that they are dead to Christ but that they are physically dead to us. And yes, God is God of the living, the question is....does anyone every really die to God? But that's beside the point. Even when God said that He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He doesn't tell us that those 3 intercede for us, which that's what the conversation been about.

Rachel is said to be interceding for the Jews went to her grave to pray to her... It is in the OT. Now if the saints are 'dead" spiritually then why are they with Christ in Paradise? The thief was said to be with Christ by Christ's own words. That is the place the righteous go that is for sure as it is mentioned by Paul too many times... Why would the saints would be dead spiritually? If they are not then of course they can hear prayers. Rachel did again... Intercesion is not limited by "space" or time as God is not limited by that either. If one 'lives in Christ" and never dies then of course we are sure that they have a spiritual life that transcends this "earthly life".

 

[Philothei]

What is your Scriptural source that Moses was resurrected and then taken to heaven?

Agree to the question. Also why the thief would be different and was granted Paradise after his death? It does not make sense that not ALL righteous are not taken to heaven after their death as indeed that is what is said by our Lord.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Rachel is said to be interceding for the Jews went to her grave to pray to her... It is in the OT. Now if the saints are 'dead" spiritually then why are they with Christ in Paradise? The thief was said to be with Christ by Christ's own words. That is the place the righteous go that is for sure as it is mentioned by Paul too many times... Why would the saints would be dead spiritually? If they are not then of course they can hear prayers. Rachel did again... Intercesion is not limited by "space" or time as God is not limited by that either. If one 'lives in Christ" and never dies then of course we are sure that they have a spiritual life that transcends this "earthly life".

No one said the Christians are spiritually dead, we are saying that they are physically dead. We're just making the distinction between us asking physically alive Christians to pray for us and us asking physically dead Christians to pray for us. We can communicate with physically alive Christians, we have no way of communicating with physically dead Christians. Now, you might say "we'll they are spiritually alive and therefore we're able to communicate with them by addressing them in a prayer.." but as far as we're told, our prayers are to be addressed to God. Even if we say "well we don't pray to them, we just ask them to intercede for us", question becomes, "how do you think they hear you?" Just because we are assuming that they are in the same place as God doesn't make them God. Doesn't mean that they can hear you asking for prayers, especially since our prayers are being addressed to God and being interceded by the Holy Spirit who makes groaning for us and it being heard through Jesus' name.

As for Rachel...do you mean this verse:

Thus says the LORD: “ A voice was heard in Ramah, Lamentation and bitter weeping, Rachel weeping for her children, Refusing to be comforted for her children, Because they are no more.”--Jeremiah 31:15
​

That prophecy was fulfilled in Matthew 2:16-18

16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men. 17 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying:
18 “ A voice was heard in Ramah,
Lamentation, weeping, and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children,
Refusing to be comforted,
Because they are no more.”​

Agree to the question. Also why the thief would be different and was granted Paradise after his death? It does not make sense that not ALL righteous are not taken to heaven after their death as indeed that is what is said by our Lord.

The Lord said "Today you will be with me in Paradise".
And we know that the Lord didn't stay in Paradise because He was risen 3 days later and now is in Heaven on the right hand of God. (Matthew 16:19).

 

[Philothei]

question becomes, "how do you think they hear you?" Just because we are assuming that they are in the same place as God doesn't make them God. Doesn't mean that they can hear you asking for prayers, especially since our prayers are being addressed to God and being interceded by the Holy Spirit who makes groaning for us and it being heard through Jesus' name.

Not everthing has to be explained with scholastic accurancy to be valid in the spiritual realm...it is like asking How exactly there is real presence? How did Christ heal? How was able Christ to be both human and also God or what exactly is the nature of God. All are mysteries as they dewell with God and not with people. How do the saints communicate with us? Through miracles, visions and through God's Holy Spirit. The hangerchief of Paul was considered "grace bearer" as Paul have touched it. The Grace of God is NOT stiffled by things, space, or human reasoning that was my point.
No that is not the verse I was referring to. I was referring to the one where they went to Rachel's tomb to pray. Got to ask Thekla and will post it. BTW that has been presented about a million so times in this forum....but will post it again just for curiocity's sake...

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Not everthing has to be explained with scholastic accurancy to be valid in the spiritual realm...it is like asking How exactly there is real presence? How did Christ heal? How was able Christ to be both human and also God or what exactly is the nature of God. All are mysteries as they dewell with God and not with people. How do the saints communicate with us? Through miracles, visions and through God's Holy Spirit. The hangerchief of Paul was considered "grace bearer" as Paul have touched it. The Grace of God is NOT stiffled by things, space, or human reasoning that was my point.
No that is not the verse I was referring to. I was referring to the one where they went to Rachel's tomb to pray. Got to ask Thekla and will post it. BTW that has been presented about a million so times in this forum....but will post it again just for curiocity's sake...

But simply because we have believe the notion "not everything has to be explained with scholastic accuracy to be valid in the spiritual realm" doesn't give us the right to make things up as if they are actually happening in the spiritual realm. Because it's a realm that we don't know hardly anything about, information that we are given is what we must go on.

And I agree GOD is not stiffled by time, space or human reasoning but saints are not God. And we shouldn't hold them to the same freedoms that is placed on God. As for the answers to how the saints communicate with us, I'm not touching that one.

 

[Stryder06]

What is your Scriptural source that Moses was resurrected and then taken to heaven?

Jude

 

[Stryder06]

Agree to the question. Also why the thief would be different and was granted Paradise after his death? It does not make sense that not ALL righteous are not taken to heaven after their death as indeed that is what is said by our Lord.

First: Jesus was making a promise to the thief that he would be saved. Not that he would be in heaven that day. Recall the words of Christ after the resurrection that He had not yet risen to His Father.

Second: Paradise is heaven.

 

[narnia59]

Jude

Scripture says the body of Moses was buried in a valley in the land of Moab. The reference in Jude says:

9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

This reference is not clear what the 'contention' with the devil over the body of Moses was, but it certainly doesn't say anything about the body of Moses being resurrected and taken to heaven. You've left Scripture and headed into apocrypha.

 

[Stryder06]

Scripture says the body of Moses was buried in a valley in the land of Moab. The reference in Jude says:

9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

This reference is not clear what the 'contention' with the devil over the body of Moses was, but it certainly doesn't say anything about the body of Moses being resurrected and taken to heaven. You've left Scripture and headed into apocrypha.

I love the "I don't know what that means but it doesn't mean what you say it means" school of thought.

Why would they be arguing over the body? I've not left scripture. Moses was with Christ at the Transfiguration. He wouldn't be there if He was dead. Don't forget, the dead know nothing. And I find it ironic that you'd be telling me that I've left scripture for my explanation.

 

[narnia59]

I love the "I don't know what that means but it doesn't mean what you say it means" school of thought.

Why would they be arguing over the body? I've not left scripture. Moses was with Christ at the Transfiguration. He wouldn't be there if He was dead. Don't forget, the dead know nothing. And I find it ironic that you'd be telling me that I've left scripture for my explanation.

I didn't say it cannot mean that or it didn't happen. You simply cannot assert that it did happen from Scripture. Scripture doesn't tell us that Moses was resurrected and assumed. I can come up with all sorts of scenarios that do not contradict Scripture; that doesn't mean they're Scriptural. You can believe it if you like, but do not try to pass it off as being a Scriptural fact. Scripture doesn't say that.

Scripture uses the term 'dead' in multiple senses. The dead who "know nothing" in Ecclesiastes are the damned -- those who are not only physically dead but are spiritually dead as well. They are, according to Ecclesiastes, those who have no more reward, and no more hope. Applying that to those who have died "in Christ" is one of the finest examples of taking Scripture out of context that I know of. Do you really want to contend that those who have died "in Christ" have no more reward, and no more hope? If not, face the music that the use of 'dead' in this sense has nothing to do with the saints in heaven, and stop using it as though it does.

 

[Stryder06]

I didn't say it cannot mean that or it didn't happen. You simply cannot assert that it did happen from Scripture. Scripture doesn't tell us that Moses was resurrected and assumed. I can come up with all sorts of scenarios that do not contradict Scripture; that doesn't mean they're Scriptural. You can believe it if you like, but do not try to pass it off as being a Scriptural fact. Scripture doesn't say that.

Scripture doesn't have to specifically say it. Jude says that the body of Moses was disputed over. Before that though we see that Moses is with Christ. Moses wouldn't be with Christ if he was still dead and had not been resurrected.

Scripture uses the term 'dead' in multiple senses. The dead who "know nothing" in Ecclesiastes are the damned -- those who are not only physically dead but are spiritually dead as well. They are, according to Ecclesiastes, those who have no more reward, and no more hope. Applying that to those who have died "in Christ" is one of the finest examples of taking Scripture out of context that I know of. Do you really want to contend that those who have died "in Christ" have no more reward, and no more hope? If not, face the music that the use of 'dead' in this sense has nothing to do with the saints in heaven, and stop using it as though it does.

I'm sorry but the verse in Ecclesiastes is a blanket statement about the dead. It's not about the damned but the dead in general. Just like Isaiah who praised God for spearing him from death, or the psalmist who did the same. They acknowledge that it wasn't the dead, but the living who praise God.

If you look at how Christ uses the word dead, you'll see how He see's it. Christ did not refer to Lazarus or the maiden as dead, but as asleep, while He said that those who were lost were dead. That's because they have no hope of eternal life. Those who die in Christ will live again and live forever, while those who die without Christ will live again, only to be judged and then destroyed.

 

[narnia59]

Scripture doesn't have to specifically say it. Jude says that the body of Moses was disputed over. Before that though we see that Moses is with Christ. Moses wouldn't be with Christ if he was still dead and had not been resurrected.



I'm sorry but the verse in Ecclesiastes is a blanket statement about the dead. It's not about the damned but the dead in general. Just like Isaiah who praised God for spearing him from death, or the psalmist who did the same. They acknowledge that it wasn't the dead, but the living who praise God.

If you look at how Christ uses the word dead, you'll see how He see's it. Christ did not refer to Lazarus or the maiden as dead, but as asleep, while He said that those who were lost were dead. That's because they have no hope of eternal life. Those who die in Christ will live again and live forever, while those who die without Christ will live again, only to be judged and then destroyed.

The "dead" in general are not hopeless and have no reward to look forward. That passage only applies to the damned and is not a blanket statement about everyone who has died. It does not apply to those who have died in Christ.

Those who die in Christ live now. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob -- the God of the living, remember? Those who believe in Christ will NEVER die, not spiritually die and then live again. Abraham saw the day of Christ and rejoiced. We cannot be separated from the love of Christ by death.

The 'soul sleep' doctrine of the SDA is the result of taking a handful of Scriptures out of context and is so far "out there" I really don't have any interesting in debating it.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

The "dead" in general are not hopeless and have no reward to look forward. That passage only applies to the damned and is not a blanket statement about everyone who has died. It does not apply to those who have died in Christ.

Those who die in Christ live now. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob -- the God of the living, remember? Those who believe in Christ will NEVER die, not spiritually die and then live again. Abraham saw the day of Christ and rejoiced. We cannot be separated from the love of Christ by death.

The 'soul sleep' doctrine of the SDA is the result of taking a handful of Scriptures out of context and is so far "out there" I really don't have any interesting in debating it.

I haven't really been following the discussion between you two, I just hope this scripture helps:

Ecclesiastes 9:1-8

Ecclesiastes 9

1 For I considered all this in my heart, so that I could declare it all: that the righteous and the wise and their works are in the hand of God. People know neither love nor hatred by anything they see before them. 2 All things come alike to all:
One event happens to the righteous and the wicked;
To the good, the clean, and the unclean;
To him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice.
As is the good, so is the sinner;
He who takes an oath as he who fears an oath.

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.
7 Go, eat your bread with joy,
And drink your wine with a merry heart;
For God has already accepted your works.
8 Let your garments always be white,
And let your head lack no oil.​

 

[Stryder06]

The "dead" in general are not hopeless and have no reward to look forward. That passage only applies to the damned and is not a blanket statement about everyone who has died. It does not apply to those who have died in Christ.

Those who die in Christ live now. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob -- the God of the living, remember? Those who believe in Christ will NEVER die, not spiritually die and then live again. Abraham saw the day of Christ and rejoiced. We cannot be separated from the love of Christ by death.

The 'soul sleep' doctrine of the SDA is the result of taking a handful of Scriptures out of context and is so far "out there" I really don't have any interesting in debating it.

Wow. Tell me where it says that it's just for the damned and I'll digress? Better show, where does scripture say man received an immortal soul? God is the God of the living. Jesus said in Revelation, be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Peter said that David was dead and that his grave was with them still. Why say that if David wasn't dead? Death can't separate us from God because God has power over death. The doctrine of the "immortal soul" is based on assumptions placed on some scripture while explaining away the clear meaning of others. If it was in harmony with the scriptures it wouldn't require the explaining away of other texts.

If you don't want to discuss this that's your prerogative. But trust that it's tradition, not scripture, that teaches man has an immortal soul.

 

[narnia59]

Wow. Tell me where it says that it's just for the damned and I'll digress? Better show, where does scripture say man received an immortal soul? God is the God of the living. Jesus said in Revelation, be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Peter said that David was dead and that his grave was with them still. Why say that if David wasn't dead? Death can't separate us from God because God has power over death. The doctrine of the "immortal soul" is based on assumptions placed on some scripture while explaining away the clear meaning of others. If it was in harmony with the scriptures it wouldn't require the explaining away of other texts.

If you don't want to discuss this that's your prerogative. But trust that it's tradition, not scripture, that teaches man has an immortal soul.

If you want to profess that those who have died in Christ have no hope and no more reward as this passage states, be my guest. If not, then admit this Scripture is referring to the damned, not those who have died in Christ.

Virtually every other denomination I'm aware of who professes to get their doctrine from the Bible alone would disagree with you and profess Scripture, not tradition, teaches that man does indeed have an immortal soul and those who have died in Christ are indeed alive with him in heaven. Yet another example of why Christ established a teaching authority within his church, and that Scripture doesn't teach that it alone is the sole authority for doctrine, much less that it interprets itself.