We're assuming that the elders are humans again. I know we've been through this, and I'm not saying that they are not, I'm just saying that the bible doesn't tell us who these elders are in heaven. That's why I won't understand why we keep saying that they are the saints, when the bible doesn't make that clear, nor does it tell us who they are but some have even named them.
Prayers arise as incense (figurative)
prayers are said (we speak them either out loud or quietly to ourselves)
they are heard (who hears them??? All we know is that God hears them, not that others hear them). In Revelations, it says that the golden bowls of incense are the prayers of the saints...but it doesn't tell us that the elders/angels or living creatures heard them but that, that's what the incense are. You can say "well John was hearing them because he reported them" well, John didn't tell us that he heard the prayers but that the incense were the prayers.
When Jesus taught us how to pray, He said this,
But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly..........Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him..." --Matthew 6:6,8
Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groaning which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercessions for the saints according to the will of God."
compare that what is said in Tobit
I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One.
As I was reading this verse, I said to myself....there has got to be something more to it to why she should include this verse, which doesn't claim intercessions of the saints but yet she believes it so much.....I actually read the entire chapter 12 and after reading it, I wondered why not state Tobit 12:12 instead of 15, but either way, the story that is written is fanciful to say the lease and it being written in 712BC, the writings is definitely not like what we have in the OT where it was straight up history and prophecy, excluding Ezekiel which is more like Daniels and Revelations. But if you consider it a joyous book, I want to know why you believe in the intercessions of the saints that has pasted on so much, so, I'll go ahead and read the book of Tobit. I'm reading the Gospel of John now but I'll read it afterwards. Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groaning which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercessions for the saints according to the will of God."
compare that what is said in Tobit
I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One.
It doesn't say that they are in heaven praying for us. It says that our prayers are incense, read it again in Rev. 5:8Anyhow, Scriptures show us that Saints in heaven pray for us, and that they pass on our prayers as incense to our Lord. it's just that you and other friends here read and interpret and see these verses differently, or were taught to see or interpret it differently. We will obviously never see eye to eye on that, which is fine.
Love to you and God bless.
"Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
Here is the thing about Rev 5:8, no where does it say that the golden bowls full of incense has been passed on to the Lord.
*Disclaimer* I am not saying that that is not what happens. I am not making the claim that those golden bowls are not passed on to the Lord, I'm saying that Revelations 5:8-14 does not tell us that those prayers are passed on from the elders to God. it could be, but what I'm saying is that you can't make that case that it does using Revelations 5:8-14 alone.
IF you want to make the case that the prayers are being passed on, you can use Revelations 8:3-6
3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
But here is the problem, not problem, more information....that verse tells us that angels are the ones that are offering it. Again, it doesn't tell us that angels are interceding or that angels are praying but that they our offering our prayers upon the golden altar. And seeing as we're not having a discussion about angels interceding for us, and that the discussion is more about the saints that have long pasted gone praying for us, that doesn't really help this situation.6 So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
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