saints of this and that (moved from GT)

[Dorothea]

I find it amazing that people are still trying to claim that the 24 elders are saints, even though scripture doesn't tell us so.

Psalms 140, told us exactly what we already knew in Revelations 5:8, our prayers are incense in heaven.

And as for Tobit 12:15, and while I don't read that book nor do I even believe it, read the verse again. It says that "who REPORT THE PRAYERS of the saints"...no where does it tell us that "Raphael" intercede nor does he tells us that he is praying for the saints. And reporting and interceding is different because look at Romans 8 where the Holy Spirit makes groaning for us to God and that our prayers are being heard because of Christ.

Again, neither verse that you gave showcase anyone except the Holy Spirit and Christ interceding for us through prayer.

The elders are in heaven = SAINTS.

Prayers arising as incense - prayers are said, therefore, they are heard. We do so every Sunday and in our daily prayers. I understand you have a different understanding. Yes, I realize you don't read the original OT books. I'm sorry. Tobit is one of the most joyous books I've ever read in the OT books.

Anyhow, Scriptures show us that Saints in heaven pray for us, and that they pass on our prayers as incense to our Lord. it's just that you and other friends here read and interpret and see these verses differently, or were taught to see or interpret it differently. We will obviously never see eye to eye on that, which is fine.

Love to you and God bless.

 

[Dorothea]

These discussions become so strident; perhaps if they could proceed in a more positive light - from the grounding in a mutual love for Christ and thus concomitantly include respect and a desire to not rely on preconceived notions but instead to truly hear another - the discussions would be fruitful, not "withered" and "withering" in tone.

We arrive here with different understandings of terminology, different experiences in Christ and of His kingdom.

God with us +

... that the discussion may proceed in love, without accusation, without suspicion, and with the hearing that is beyond physical hearing but instead the hearing granted in the Holy Spirit.

Thank you, dear Thekla, my dear, dear friend. It is soooo good to see you here. I've missed you.

 

[Dorothea]

You mean it's not Folgers in your cup?

No, it's Tully's Coffee from Seattle, WA, silly.

 

[Dbrown91]

I ask "dead" people to pray for me, but I also believe that the Savior of the world was born of a Virgin in a ruddy old manger. I guess I believe in a lot of "fantasy" stuff.

 

[Rick Otto]

I've never had a conversation with either the dead or the deceased.

 

[sunlover1]

I suppose my concern can be expressed this way:

an exploration, a mutual understanding, a true hearing must be reached before an assessment of error is claimed.

Strident conversation can sometimes be the result of fear.
And is not actual dialogue, is not actual discussion.
Does not result in hearing, learning, and actual person to person interaction.

It is such a loss of opportunity ...

I agree.. some very silly flippant posts in this thread as in all GT threads.
That's why I post Scripture when I present my beliefs.
But we will always have smart alecs around spouting from their emotions
rather than their facts. I agree, a huge loss of opportunity there.

You mean it's not Folgers in your cup?

It's WOW in my cup!
You can find some here :
‪Israel & New Breed - Alpha and Omega‬‏ - YouTube

 

[sunlover1]

I ask "dead" people to pray for me, but I also believe that the Savior of the world was born of a Virgin in a ruddy old manger. I guess I believe in a lot of "fantasy" stuff.

The Bible says He was born in a manger.

I've never had a conversation with either the dead or the deceased.

I used to pray to Mary, mother of Jesus.
When I read the Bible as a teenager, something
I read convicted my heart that praying to anyone
but God was not Okay.. Wish i could remember what
that was.

 

[Thekla]

I've never had a conversation with either the dead or the deceased.

Same

(Hey, bro )

 

[Dbrown91]

I used to pray to Mary, mother of Jesus.
When I read the Bible as a teenager, something
I read convicted my heart that praying to anyone
but God was not Okay.. Wish i could remember what
that was.

I think the point is to ask one (Mary) to pray for you, not to pray to Her.

 

[Thekla]

I think the point is to ask one (Mary) to pray for you, not to pray to Her.

 

[Dorothea]

Historical data (from Holy Tradition) says that actually Jesus was born in a cave where animals stayed at the time. I still see these types of carved out cave type things when we drove through the countryside in Greece last spring. And there were the goats.

______________________

The Church of the Nativity (Arabic: كنيسة المهد&#8206 in Bethlehem is one of the oldest continuously operating churches in the world. The structure is built over the cave that tradition marks as the birthplace of Jesus of Nazareth, and thus it is considered sacred by Christians. The site is also revered by followers of Islam (see Jesus in Islam).

The antiquity of this tradition is attested by the Christian apologist Justin Martyr (c. 100 - 165), who noted in his Dialogue with Trypho that the Holy Family had taken refuge in a cave outside of town:

Joseph took up his quarters in a certain cave near the village; and while they were there Mary brought forth the Christ and placed Him in a manger, and here the Magi who came from Arabia found Him.(chapter LXXVIII).

Origen of Alexandria (185 AD–ca. 254) wrote:

In Bethlehem the cave is pointed out where He was born, and the manger in the cave where He was wrapped in swaddling clothes. And the rumor is in those places, and among foreigners of the Faith, that indeed Jesus was born in this cave who is worshipped and reverenced by the Christians. (Contra Celsum, book I, chapter LI).

The first basilica on this site was begun by Saint Helena, the mother of the Emperor Constantine I. Under the supervision of Bishop Makarios of Jerusalem, the construction started in 327 and was completed in 333. That structure was burnt down in the Samaritan Revolt of 529.

Church of the Nativity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's in the Protoevangelium of James too.

The really cool things about history of the ancient church are these little, fun details.

Back to your regularly-scheduled discussion.

 

[Dorothea]

I think the point is to ask one (Mary) to pray for you, not to pray to Her.

Good distinction.

 

[Bryne]

I have to say, I felt very much in the presence of God at St. Andrew's relics (his head) in a church named for him in Patras, Greece. I was moved to tears. On my knees, leaning on the marble block in front of the glass relic case. I wasn't really doing anything at first but sitting there in silence. But suddenly I thought about St. Andrew and his life. I felt like I was going back to when he was alive on earth and could feel the hardships he went through, the persecutions, and eventually the being crucified on a wooden cross in the shape of an "X" that was there next to the relic area. This is what moved me to tears. I hadn't realized all that he'd gone through at that time and I was at a loss for words. All that came out of my mouth was, "St. Andrew, please pray for us." And I crossed myself and got up to leave.

You all can call that a bunch of garbage all you want. I don't care. I know what I felt through the Spirit and I am grateful for the experience. He gave me compassion to feel what an saintly Apostle lived through at the time. Glory to God!

What a beautiful experience. I was born on St. Andrew's feast day, so I feel an affinity to him.

 

[sunlover1]

I think the point is to ask one (Mary) to pray for you, not to pray to Her.

She can't hear me.. (can she?)
and I have access to the Father through
the Son anyhow... right?

 

[tadoflamb]

The beautiful thing about Mary is that, like a good mother, she'll always direct our attention towards her Son.

She's the one who introduced me to Him.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

I still find it amazing how you figured that the men who canonized the Bible came "3200+" years after the apostles. Can you tell us where you obtained that figure?

When you show a post where I said that, I will be happy to defend it. Consequently, I never said anything about it being 3200+ years after the apostles....seeing as it hasn't been 3200+ years after their dead, I wouldn't even begin to understand why I would say such a thing.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

These discussions become so strident; perhaps if they could proceed in a more positive light - from the grounding in a mutual love for Christ and thus concomitantly include respect and a desire to not rely on preconceived notions but instead to truly hear another - the discussions would be fruitful, not "withered" and "withering" in tone.

We arrive here with different understandings of terminology, different experiences in Christ and of His kingdom.

God with us +

... that the discussion may proceed in love, without accusation, without suspicion, and with the hearing that is beyond physical hearing but instead the hearing granted in the Holy Spirit.

I don't want you to think that this is being ignored. I hear you, beautifully written.

 

[Dorothea]

What a beautiful experience. I was born on St. Andrew's feast day, so I feel an affinity to him.

Thank you. That is wonderful.

 

[Dorothea]

The beautiful thing about Mary is that, like a good mother, she'll always direct our attention towards her Son.

She's the one who introduced me to Him.

That's awesome, tad.

I believe for me it was the Holy Spirit. He guided me back to church and to reading the Bible and to getting to know Him through the services and prayer.

 

[Tzaousios]

Those men who canonized the bible were 3200+ years removed from a direct communication between the Apostles and the disciples who walked with God.

I still find it amazing how you figured that the men who canonized the Bible came "3200+" years after the apostles. Can you tell us where you obtained that figure?

When you show a post where I said that, I will be happy to defend it. Consequently, I never said anything about it being 3200+ years after the apostles....seeing as it hasn't been 3200+ years after their dead, I wouldn't even begin to understand why I would say such a thing.

Defend away. The men who canonized the Bible were not 3200+ years removed from direct communication with the Apostles and their disciples.