saints of this and that (moved from GT)

[Ortho_Cat]

All that indicates is that they are aware of our prayers, but not each individual one, or that they are heard rather than smelled. They are shown being offered, not answered.
Surely this verse is employing some figurative speech.
This is not solid evidence for what has not been practiced or instructed on by an apostle.

Smell, not hear.

You are guessing.

Let my prayer be set forth before you as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice. Ps 141:2

 

[sunlover1]

Originally Posted by sunlover1 One definitely has to be wrong
Either the 'saints" can "hear" us ... or they can't.

Hi BOC

As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God.

Certainly, one would argue that prayer is addressed to God...
Even Jesus Himself said that the time would come that we would no longer
pray to HIM..
He even taught us to pray thus:
Our FATHER, who are IN HEAVEN
Holy is YOUR Name
YOUR kingdom come
YOUR will be done
On earth AS it is in Heaven

So very simple and clear our God
taught us to pray TO God alone.

Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

This is not implied..If it shows anything at all .. it's that the
four beasts.. and the "Four and twenty elders"... EACH have
golden vials of insense... representing prayer.
In fact, should we then pray to "the beasts" as well?
King James Bible
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty
elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and
golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that the beasts and elders "offer our prayers" to God "Mentally".

Scripture has made it so very clear that we can now come directly to
God with our prayer. And in fact, God Himself makes intercession for
us.
We pray for each other in agreement ON EARTH as well.. like a little
army of priests helping each other!

 

[Incariol]

Let my prayer be set forth before you as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice. Ps 141:2

‪Orthodox - Let my prayer‬‏ - YouTube

 

[Incariol]

Hi BOC


Certainly, one would argue that prayer is addressed to God...
Even Jesus Himself said that the time would come that we would no longer
pray to HIM..
He even taught us to pray thus:
Our FATHER, who are IN HEAVEN
Holy is YOUR Name
YOUR kingdom come
YOUR will be done
On earth AS it is in Heaven

So very simple and clear our God
taught us to pray TO God alone.

Then you never ask anyone for anything, right? You never ask for a jury duty deferment, you never ask for more ketchup at a restaurant, you never ask for your Senators to vote a certain way, you never ask anyone to help you around the house?

This is not implied..If it shows anything at all .. it's that the
four beasts.. and the "Four and twenty elders"... EACH have
golden vials of insense... representing prayer.
In fact, should we then pray to "the beasts" as well?
King James Bible
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty
elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and
golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.


Nowhere in Scripture does it say that the beasts and elders "offer our prayers" to God "Mentally".

*stares incredulously from the last sentence to the verse and back again, then adds emphasis*

Scripture has made it so very clear that we can now come directly to
God with our prayer. And in fact, God Himself makes intercession for
us.
We pray for each other in agreement ON EARTH as well.. like a little
army of priests helping each other!

But you started out by saying we aren't allowed to do this. Are we not supposed to ask anyone for help, or are we allowed to pray for others to pray for us? You need to make up your mind.

 

[sunlover1]

Then you never ask anyone for anything, right? You never ask for a jury duty deferment, you never ask for more ketchup at a restaurant, you never ask for your Senators to vote a certain way, you never ask anyone to help you around the house?

I pray to God alone...

*stares incredulously from the last sentence to the verse and back again, then adds emphasis*

Drama wont prove much though.

But you started out by saying we aren't allowed to do this. Are we not supposed to ask anyone for help, or are we allowed to pray for others to pray for us? You need to make up your mind.

Never did I say we arent supposed to ask anyone for help.

So far we're batting a thousand in the communication department.
Please don't misrepresent me k?

 

[Incariol]

I pray to God alone...

So yes, you don't ever ask for the bill, ask for more ketchup, or ask for help around the house? Eep. Have fun with that.

Drama wont prove much though.

Neither will epigenetics.

Never did I say we arent supposed to ask anyone for help.

Yes, you did.

" So very simple and clear our God
taught us to pray TO God alone.
"

So far we're batting a thousand in the communication department.
Please don't misrepresent me k?

Look, I happen to know what "pray" means, if you don't, this isn't my problem. I'll help you out. "Pray" and "Ask" are synonyms, so when you say you can "ask" but not "pray", you aren't making an iota of sense.

 

[LOCO]

I have to say, I felt very much in the presence of God at St. Andrew's relics (his head) in a church named for him in Patras, Greece. I was moved to tears. On my knees, leaning on the marble block in front of the glass relic case. I wasn't really doing anything at first but sitting there in silence. But suddenly I thought about St. Andrew and his life. I felt like I was going back to when he was alive on earth and could feel the hardships he went through, the persecutions, and eventually the being crucified on a wooden cross in the shape of an "X" that was there next to the relic area. This is what moved me to tears. I hadn't realized all that he'd gone through at that time and I was at a loss for words. All that came out of my mouth was, "St. Andrew, please pray for us." And I crossed myself and got up to leave.

You all can call that a bunch of garbage all you want. I don't care. I know what I felt through the Spirit and I am grateful for the experience. He gave me compassion to feel what an saintly Apostle lived through at the time. Glory to God!

Hello again Dorothea,

Thank you for that personal story of St Andrews relic.

This is the exact same feeling I got at St Peter and St Pauls tombs in Rome.

An overwhelming feeling of awe, emotion and thankfulness for their role in spreading and preserving the Gospels orally and scripturally in spite of the persecution they faced.

Seeing the Chains of St Peter was also an emotional teary moment.

The Chains of St. Peter



I'll be blithering mess when I go on my Holy Land Tour at the end of the year. Please pray that my trip isn't cancelled again due to political unrest.+

 

[Stryder06]

But do you realize that using solely the bible as your sole authority on God is an tradition of men in itself. It did not exist until the Reformation and thereafter? Indeed it is, Stryder.

I don't have a problem with tradition. I just can't agree that scripture should be measured against it. I believe it should be the other way around.

Sure we can't be both right. I believe I'm right, and you believe you're right. How are we to reconcile that? You say so because of your traditions on how you read the bible, I say so through the backing of history of the Church and Christianity and ties to the Apostles. You say you follow the Apostles by reading the bible, which is a tradition from after the Reformation. I follow what was taught by the Apostles and their Church Fathers who physically were in and part of our Church.

I can't put any stock in what some say has been done throughout history. If the bible declares something is to be one way, and a traditional practice deems it should be done another way, I hold to what the scriptures say. I believe the disciples did so as well. Considering also how Paul warned of false teachers rising up from among the church, I don't see how one could solely lean on what tradition says. At that point you're putting your faith in man. Men err. Men lie. Men will deceive and do so with a warm touch, soft embrace, and with a smile. The only way to be sure that what one is doing is pleasing to God is to check it against what God has already established.

We could sit here all day until we're blue in the face you think you're right, I think I'm right. What would that prove? Nothing. I'm not here to convert people, nor to try to make sure everyone thinks and knows I'm right. I share what I believe, and the Holy Spirit works the rest within us and with each other as He will.

I love you, Stryder. Don't ever forget that.

At least we have this bit in common

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

OSB footnotes:

Rev. 5:8: The four angelic beings, the four living creatures, and the glorified saints of all ages represented by the twenty-four elders worship Jesus, thus recognizing His deity, by elevated thanksgiving (each having a harp). And by elevated prayer (golden bowls full of incense), they present to God the prayers of the saints still on earth, manifested in the incense (8:3, 4; see Ps 140:2; Tb 12:15). In the ancient world, incense was used in both secular and liturgical life. God, people, and objects were censed as a sign of honor and dedication. And in the services of the Church, incense is also a symbol of prayer.

Psalm 140: Let my prayer set forth before You as incense.

Tobit 12:15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who report the prayers of the saints and who enter before the glory of the Holy One.

I find it amazing that people are still trying to claim that the 24 elders are saints, even though scripture doesn't tell us so.

Psalms 140, told us exactly what we already knew in Revelations 5:8, our prayers are incense in heaven.

And as for Tobit 12:15, and while I don't read that book nor do I even believe it, read the verse again. It says that "who REPORT THE PRAYERS of the saints"...no where does it tell us that "Raphael" intercede nor does he tells us that he is praying for the saints. And reporting and interceding is different because look at Romans 8 where the Holy Spirit makes groaning for us to God and that our prayers are being heard because of Christ.

Again, neither verse that you gave showcase anyone except the Holy Spirit and Christ interceding for us through prayer.

 

[Thekla]

These discussions become so strident; perhaps if they could proceed in a more positive light - from the grounding in a mutual love for Christ and thus concomitantly include respect and a desire to not rely on preconceived notions but instead to truly hear another - the discussions would be fruitful, not "withered" and "withering" in tone.

We arrive here with different understandings of terminology, different experiences in Christ and of His kingdom.

God with us +

... that the discussion may proceed in love, without accusation, without suspicion, and with the hearing that is beyond physical hearing but instead the hearing granted in the Holy Spirit.

 

[sunlover1]

So yes, you don't ever ask for the bill, ask for more ketchup, or ask for help around the house? Eep. Have fun with that.



Neither will epigenetics.



Yes, you did.

Show me where I said we are never to ask anyone for help.

Look, I happen to know what "pray" means, if you don't, this isn't my problem. I'll help you out. "Pray" and "Ask" are synonyms, so when you say you can "ask" but not "pray", you aren't making an iota of sense.

I think we all know the def. of prayer we speak of IN THIS THREAD.
Another red herring doesn't change my beliefs.

These discussions become so strident; perhaps if they could proceed in a more positive light - from the grounding in a mutual love for Christ and thus concomitantly include respect and a desire to not rely on preconceived notions but instead to truly hear another - the discussions would be fruitful, not "withered" and "withering" in tone.

There you are. Wondered if you'd left..
Glad to see you're well.

I actually have only seen a couple of instances of anyone becoming
rude or offensive IN THIS THREAD ...
But yes, it is the nature of debate that some will find offense at other's
understandings.
Would be great if it werent' so.

 

[Thekla]

There you are. Wondered if you'd left..
Glad to see you're well.

Thank-you, Sun
To you as well !

I couldn't stand the "tone" here much ....

I actually have only seen a couple of instances of anyone becoming
rude or offensive IN THIS THREAD ...
But yes, it is the nature of debate that some will find offense at other's
understandings.
Would be great if it werent' so.

I don't recall anyone being wholly rude or offensive in this thread either.

But what I did recount seeing I did see - a strident tone, suspicion, a disconnect in actual understanding of the other ...

Maybe it would help to define terms at the beginning of the discussion (for example, prayer) ?

 

[sunlover1]

Thank-you, Sun
To you as well !

I couldn't stand the "tone" here much ....

Ahh, so you have been gone too then..
I am pretty much "gone" too lol.. Starting a new
business and kind of bored with this place I guess.

Maybe it would help to define terms at the beginning of the discussion (for example, prayer) ?

[/QUOTE]
lol.
Yeah, these threads in GT (although this one was moved out)
are all the same in the end but some of us just can't help but
try to correct what we see as error .. we all know who we are

I seriously am about to spend some time in prayer so Whoop Whoop!
(NO place I'd rather be than in His presence where there's fulness of
joy!!... The best part of waking up )

 

[Tzaousios]

I find it amazing that people are still trying to claim that the 24 elders are saints, even though scripture doesn't tell us so.

I still find it amazing how you figured that the men who canonized the Bible came "3200+" years after the apostles. Can you tell us where you obtained that figure?

 

[Thekla]

Ahh, so you have been gone too then..
I am pretty much "gone" too lol.. Starting a new
business and kind of bored with this place I guess.

lol.
Yeah, these threads in GT (although this one was moved out)
are all the same in the end but some of us just can't help but
try to correct what we see as error .. we all know who we are

I seriously am about to spend some time in prayer so Whoop Whoop!
(NO place I'd rather be than in His presence where there's fulness of
joy!!... The best part of waking up )

I suppose my concern can be expressed this way:

an exploration, a mutual understanding, a true hearing must be reached before an assessment of error is claimed.

Strident conversation can sometimes be the result of fear.
And is not actual dialogue, is not actual discussion.
Does not result in hearing, learning, and actual person to person interaction.

It is such a loss of opportunity ...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

These discussions become so strident; perhaps if they could proceed in a more positive light - from the grounding in a mutual love for Christ and thus concomitantly include respect and a desire to not rely on preconceived notions but instead to truly hear another - the discussions would be fruitful, not "withered" and "withering" in tone.

We arrive here with different understandings of terminology, different experiences in Christ and of His kingdom.

God with us +

... that the discussion may proceed in love, without accusation, without suspicion, and with the hearing that is beyond physical hearing but instead the hearing granted in the Holy Spirit.

MY "take"......


TYPICALLY, when BELIEFS and practices are presented as embraced and personally helpful, when things are framed as "my personal belief is..." or "it is a blessing in My life to....." discussions go better. When things are framed as "It's a fact!" "I'm right and ergo you are a foolish, ignorant, apostate idiot!" well, they don't go so well.


I think there's often two entirely different and not infrequently opposite set of rules: one for self and the opposite for everyone else. Such as "If my denomination says it - it's automatically true, if your denomination says it - it's accountable, needs to be substantiated, and is automatically wrong if it's not what mine says." Or, perhaps this seems familiar: "My interpretation of this is..... and ergo it's right, your interpretation is just your interpretation and isn't worth giving the light of day."


Respect goes two ways, my friend. The Golden Rule might apply, even in our discussions here. Perhaps we should not condemn others for exactly what we are doing - employing a double standard, two contradictory set of rules, two very different playing fields. Something to think about, anyway.


If you say, "it's a fact" don't yell that others are "anti" and "hateful" and "destructive" when they seek substantiation - espeically when every time they say "it's a fact" you do exactly the same thing?


For over a year, I witnessed a rather ... um.... forceful discussion between learned Catholic and LDS apologists. I took much from that - even today, years later. One of them: people often harbor logs, and the specks they complain about in others usually is that log. And people seem to protect and defend their double standard more than their positions. As I read their long, passionate posts - I soon realized they are identical. In content and form. Only the names were changed. We don't get far without humility and respect - of each other as FULL, UNseparated, and in every possible sense EQUAL brothers and sisters in Christ. And progress is impossible without a "level playing field." It's why I stress epistemology - that playing field. Why I stress honesty. Why I stress noting in self what self notes in others.



Just MY fallible half cent.


Pax


- Josiah





.

 

[Stryder06]

... The best part of waking up

You mean it's not Folgers in your cup?

 

[Thekla]

MY "take"......


TYPICALLY, when BELIEFS and practices are presented as embraced and personally helpful, when things are framed as "my personal belief is..." or "it is a blessing in My life to....." discussions go better. When things are framed as "It's a fact!" "I'm right and ergo you are a foolish, ignorant, apostate idiot!" well, they don't go so well.


I think there's often two entirely different and not infrequently opposite set of rules: one for self and the opposite for everyone else. Such as "If my denomination says it - it's automatically true, if your denomination says it - it's accountable, needs to be substantiated, and is automatically wrong if it's not what mine says." Or, perhaps this seems familiar: "My interpretation of this is..... and ergo it's right, your interpretation is just your interpretation and isn't worth giving the light of day."


Respect goes two ways, my friend. The Golden Rule might apply, even in our discussions here. Perhaps we should not condemn others for exactly what we are doing - employing a double standard, two contradictory set of rules, two very different playing fields. Something to think about, anyway.


If you say, "it's a fact" don't yell that others are "anti" and "hateful" and "destructive" when they seek substantiation - espeically when every time they say "it's a fact" you do exactly the same thing?


For over a year, I witnessed a rather ... um.... forceful discussion between learned Catholic and LDS apologists. I took much from that - even today, years later. One of them: people often harbor logs, and the specks they complain about in others usually is that log. And people seem to protect and defend their double standard more than their positions. As I read their long, passionate posts - I soon realized they are identical. In content and form. Only the names were changed. We don't get far without humility and respect - of each other as FULL, UNseparated, and in every possible sense EQUAL brothers and sisters in Christ. And progress is impossible without a "level playing field." It's why I stress epistemology - that playing field. Why I stress honesty. Why I stress noting in self what self notes in others.



Just MY fallible half cent.


Pax


- Josiah

Indeed we must be careful to not engage in "double standards", and to also acknowledge that our own definition of standard is not shared by all.

On this later point, one can acknowledge that the understanding of "standard" is in fact an expression of a particular world view. Further, the use of a standard will sort out valid expressions, points, and experiences; ie., a "standard" is a filter which prefers some sorts of information over others. The use of a "standard" should not be mistaken for the lack of validity of what does fall outside the "standard" (or the "standard bearer's") purview.

 

[Dorothea]

Hello again Dorothea,

Thank you for that personal story of St Andrews relic.

This is the exact same feeling I got at St Peter and St Pauls tombs in Rome.

An overwhelming feeling of awe, emotion and thankfulness for their role in spreading and preserving the Gospels orally and scripturally in spite of the persecution they faced.

Seeing the Chains of St Peter was also an emotional teary moment.

The Chains of St. Peter



I'll be blithering mess when I go on my Holy Land Tour at the end of the year. Please pray that my trip isn't cancelled again due to political unrest.+

That's awesome! I think because we have such a close relationship with our family that has gone before us - our family of the Saints - that the connection is quite emotional and strong. It's not only beautiful, but a great comfort to be all in One and all in mutual love and all focused and in praise of our Lord!

 

[Dorothea]

I can't put any stock in what some say has been done throughout history. If the bible declares something is to be one way, and a traditional practice deems it should be done another way, I hold to what the scriptures say. I believe the disciples did so as well. Considering also how Paul warned of false teachers rising up from among the church, I don't see how one could solely lean on what tradition says. At that point you're putting your faith in man. Men err. Men lie. Men will deceive and do so with a warm touch, soft embrace, and with a smile. The only way to be sure that what one is doing is pleasing to God is to check it against what God has already established.

Why do I keep getting drawn back in here? Because of my friends, I suppose. Yes, Paul did warn us of false teachers, and they have been dealt with in and outside of our church for the most part, through history. At least I know they have in the EO. Outside of the EO, I wouldn't know except for those tv evangelists who made the news in the past 20 years or so.

But we don't lean solely on Tradition. The Bible is Part of Holy Tradition, as well as what the Apostles taught. The Head is Christ Himself. So, we the Church is conciliar, not led by one man or the good book. The Gospels are placed on our altars because they hold a very high honor and place in our faith. And they are always used whenever the Church has come together to discuss matters of importance - whether it be moral issues, doctrinal issues, or simply confirming what was always believed - dogma.

At least we have this bit in common

Good.