saints of this and that (moved from GT)

[ivebeenshown]

You guys have not shown that the Scriptures teaches ones to pray/ask/intercede/(whatever the proper name for it) to Christians who are dead physically. I'm only going by what I see in scripture.

Oh well. You have not shown that the Scriptures teach what the canon of Scripture is... actually, you can't do that without accepting a canon in the first place. Where did your canon come from again? Did Paul write a list or something?

I'm out of this thread now... later

 

[Rick Otto]

Which canon is orthodox?
Did Paul pray to a deceased saint? Which orthodox catholic church has the reliably accurate list of who is a saint?

 

[daydreamergurl15]

What else could the term elders mean? Of course they are human. They are not angels or other heavenly creatures.

eldersplural of eld·er (Noun)

1. A person of greater age than someone specified.
2. A person of advanced age.

You said "of course they are humans" and you also said that they are the saints, my question is, how do you know? Who told you? Where in scripture is it said? Elders might very well be humans, they might not be when speaking about Heavenly things. My question is how do you know that they are Saints and how do you know their names?

 

[Dorothea]

@Dorothea
I wanted to say something to you as not to have another misunderstanding. When I say that Christians are dead, I speak of the physical and to help clarify when someone read my post, they know which Christian I was speaking about. I do not mean to say that Christians who have passed on are dead spiritually just that they are dead physically.

Now, for the verses you gave me, I'm the type of person that has to read the scripture with the surrounding scriptures around it...so with each verse you gave me, I read it within the context:

James 5:13-18
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.


Hebrews 12:18-24
18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Romans 8:31-39
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:


“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Ephesians 6:10-20
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


1 Timothy 2:1-7
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christand not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.



Luke 16:24-31
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”


Matthew 22:23-33
23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.


17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
​

My question to you is this: What is the connection in these verses that tells us that Christians who have pasted on, hears and intercede for us, with the verses you have given? I don't see the connections, can you explain them to me in the verses that you gave?

It has to do with being alive in Christ and there being no separation from Christ God = and since we're His Body, there is no division. Spiritually, we are one. So all of the verses on praying for one another, we believe means for all those joined in the Spirit.

Did you listen to the podcast? Fr. Peter goes through verses:

Ephesians 3:14-19

Hebrews 12:1-4, 18, and 28.

The wedding at Cana where the Theotokos intercedes for those at the wedding ceremony to Christ.

The rich man - a sinner, not even a believer, asks Abraham to pray for his brothers.

2 Tim 1:16-18. - (this one, Fr. Peter is talking about St. Paul praying for a departed saint).

....am listening. Not finished yet...

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Oh well. You have not shown that the Scriptures teach what the canon of Scripture is... actually, you can't do that without accepting a canon in the first place. Where did your canon come from again? Did Paul write a list or something?

I'm out of this thread now... later

At some point, you'll figure it out that Scripture was written before it was canonized. Even if it was canonized, those who canonized the scriptures are not somehow more worthy then those who wrote the Scriptures. Paul didn't have to write a list, the Holy Spirit wrote the books through inspired men which is why we even have a list to begin with. It was there before it was canonized. Those men who canonized the bible didn't write the table of content, they were given the scriptures and placed it in a certain order...they didn't write the Scriptures and then gave it a list, the Scriptures were already written before they came.

 

[LOCO]

You said "of course they are humans" and you also said that they are the saints, my question is, how do you know? Who told you? Where in scripture is it said? Elders might very well be humans, they might not be when speaking about Heavenly things. My question is how do you know that they are Saints and how do you know their names?

It's called logical deduction.

If there are humans in Heaven as the term 'elder' affirms. Which humans would they be?
Who would Jesus want in Heaven with him. They would have to be exceptional holy people of strong faith.

The first two humans who loved him, his earthly parents who bathed him, fed him, protected him, loved and cared for him from birth. He would want his friends there, the Apostles with all their strengths and flaws.

I know without a doubt Jesus' family and friends would be there e.g. St Mary Magdalene, St Mary, St Joseph, St Matthew, St Mark, St Luke, St Paul, St Peter etc.

I'm guessing Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Elijah would also be there.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

It has to do with being alive in Christ and there being no separation from Christ God = and since we're His Body, there is no division. Spiritually, we are one. So all of the verses on praying for one another, we believe means for all those joined in the Spirit.

Did you listen to the podcast? Fr. Peter goes through verses:

Ephesians 3:14-19

Hebrews 12:1-4, 18, and 28.

The wedding at Cana where the Theotokos intercedes for those at the wedding ceremony to Christ.

The rich man - a sinner, not even a believer, asks Abraham to pray for his brothers.

2 Tim 1:16-18. - (this one, Fr. Peter is talking about St. Paul praying for a departed saint).

....am listening. Not finished yet...

I understand what you mean by the deceased Christians being in Christ. What I don't understand is the connection of being a deceased Christian and having the ability to hear the prayers of those who are on earth and being able to intercede for them.

I don't know where you are connecting the idea that a deceased Christian has the ability to not only hear what is being said on earth, but being able to pray for them.

Oh and by the way, the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers, he never asked Abraham to pray for his brothers.

And no, I haven't yet listen to the podcast...but I figured it's your faith, I rather just hear what you have to say about it.

 

[Dorothea]

Read Revelation 5vs8

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."


This verse says elders i.e. humans in heaven. Who are these elders? Who are they 'elders of'? They are elders of Christians already in Heaven. They are Saints e.g. Moses, Abraham, Jude, Mark, Luke, Peter, Thomas etc.


Yes we do have levels of Christians. Just like we have levels of athletes, some athletes are professional athletes, they do it for a living, they train right, they eat right, they do everything to keep their bodies in optimal shape. Other athletes are in training, just starting out. Others are weekend sportsmen.

Christians need to go about their faith like athletes do. They need to build it up. Athletes build up their bodies through exercising it, Christians build up their faith by exercising their faith through prayer, fasting, reading Scripture or receiving Sacraments etc.

Some Christians are pros, they speak it, they behave it, they breath it, they practice it zealously. Because their faith was so strong they performed miracles, they raised the dead, instantly cured the sick and/or were Martyred for refusing to give up their faith. They led outstanding holy lives. They are devout. These Christians in the Catholic sense of the word are Saints. Capital S.

Some Christians have hauled that cross halfway to Golgotha. They are well into the marathon.

Some Christians have just strapped the cross on, just starting the journey.

Some Christians are weekend christians, christian by name only, their cross is lying in the garage, dragged out on Sundays.

I would not classify myself in the same league as St Jude, St Matthew, St Paul, St Peter, St Mark, St Augustine, St Mary Magdalene, St Joseph, St Francis of Assisi, St Patrick etc.

These guys are Saints, I am a saint. They are pros, I am an amateur.

Heaven is not a democracy. It is a Kingdom. We have an hierarchy, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Archangels, Angels, Jesus earthly parents, Mary and Joseph, the Apostles, etc.



Blessings

Yes, I forgot to add Revelation. Good example, LOCO.

And I just got to this very verse while listening to Fr. Peter, except it's chapter 11, not 5 that is about the elders. He says the the Church Fathers teach us that the 24 elders are the 12 Patriarchs of Israel and the 12 Apostles.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

It's called logical deduction.

If you claim so.

If there are humans in Heaven as the term 'elder' affirms. Which humans would they be? Who would Jesus want in Heaven with him. They would have to be exceptional holy people of strong faith.

I know without a doubt Jesus' family and friends would be there e.g. St Mary Magdalene, St Mary, St Joseph, St Matthew, St Mark, St Luke, St Paul, St Peter etc.

I'm guessing Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Elijah would also be there.

I'm at a lost for words why you would give these elders a name when the scripture doesn't or why you would call them saints when the scripture doesn't.

And to Dorothea, there are 13 Apostles? So, which Apostle didn't get in as an elder?

 

[Dorothea]

Thank you, I do appreciate the effort.
Their hearing our prayers, even if it isn't a stretch, still remains an exercise of the imagination, and prayer to deceased saints not being iterated by an apostle renders it untraditional in the apostolic sense regardless if what we imagine is in fact true, wouldn't you agree?

I don't think it's a matter of imagination, but a matter of how one understands God, His Body - the Saints, and the Spirit and how we interpret the Bible as a whole. As I told daydreamergurl:

1. Christ said we are alive if we are believers of His. We do not die spiritually.

2. The Body of Christ is never divided. You cannot separate the Body, and He is the Head.

3. St. Paul says that death cannot separate us from Christ.

4. We are to pray for one another, supplicate, intercede, etc. This naturally means all those in His Body which is on earth and in heaven.

 

[Dorothea]

You guys have not shown that the Scriptures teaches ones to pray/ask/intercede/(whatever the proper name for it) to Christians who are dead physically. I'm only going by what I see in scripture.

Because you see His Body as divided because of physical death. Physical death does not divide us from Christ. Only spiritual death would do that.

 

[LinuxUser]

Yes, I forgot to add Revelation. Good example, LOCO.

And I just got to this very verse while listening to Fr. Peter, except it's chapter 11, not 5 that is about the elders. He says the the Church Fathers teach us that the 24 elders are the 12 Patriarchs of Israel and the 12 Apostles.

I was just wondering if that was the case

 

[LOCO]

Yes, I forgot to add Revelation. Good example, LOCO.

And I just got to this very verse while listening to Fr. Peter, except it's chapter 11, not 5 that is about the elders. He says the the Church Fathers teach us that the 24 elders are the 12 Patriarchs of Israel and the 12 Apostles.

Thank you Dorothea


Especially about the 24 elders being the 12 Patriarchs of Israel and the 12 Apostles.


When I just read your post my lightbulb went on. My priest Fr Gerry spoke about this very verse during an ecumenical meeting a few weeks ago, I just forgot about it.

 

[LinuxUser]

If you claim so.


I'm at a lost for words why you would give these elders a name when the scripture doesn't or why you would call them saints when the scripture doesn't.

And to Dorothea, there are 13 Apostles? So, which Apostle didn't get in as an elder?

Not everything is contained in Scriptures, by just using half of Sacred Tradition your only getting half of Christianity

 

[Dorothea]

I understand what you mean by the deceased Christians being in Christ. What I don't understand is the connection of being a deceased Christian and having the ability to hear the prayers of those who are on earth and being able to intercede for them.

I don't know where you are connecting the idea that a deceased Christian has the ability to not only hear what is being said on earth, but being able to pray for them.

Oh and by the way, the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers, he never asked Abraham to pray for his brothers.

And no, I haven't yet listen to the podcast...but I figured it's your faith, I rather just hear what you have to say about it.

Lazarus knew he was cooked. Knowing that, he was hoping to save his brothers from being stuck where he was.

Because those in heaven aren't here on earth. They are not living in a limited environment. They are not bound by earthly things such as not heariing or seeing things. They are in Christ, with Him, in the Spirit. Their hearing and seeing are obviously different than ours. Can you not understand that? Are you telling me you believe people in heaven are the exact same in the area of the senses as on earth?

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Not everything is contained in Scriptures, by just using half your only getting half of Christianity

What is the other half that I am missing?
If I don't use that other half, does that mean I can't go to heaven? And if the answer is no, then why do I need the the other half?

 

[Dorothea]

If you claim so.


I'm at a lost for words why you would give these elders a name when the scripture doesn't or why you would call them saints when the scripture doesn't.

And to Dorothea, there are 13 Apostles? So, which Apostle didn't get in as an elder?

Where did I write 13 Apostles? I said that Fr. Peter said according to the Church Fathers, the 24 elders in Revelation are the 12 Patriarchs of Israel and the 12 Apostles. Where did you read 13?

 

[Dorothea]

Thank you Dorothea


Especially about the 24 elders being the 12 Patriarchs of Israel and the 12 Apostles.


When I just read your post my lightbulb went on. My priest Fr Gerry spoke about this very verse during an ecumenical meeting a few weeks ago, I just forgot about it.

Sure.

 

[sunlover1]

TBH, I did take it personally and felt you were judging my heart and my relationship with God just because I have a relationship with His Body (on earth and in heaven).

I understand this.
It's not personal, in fact has nothing whatsoever to do
with you (no offense)

Yes, I probably shouldn't have gotten defensive, and of course the devil likes division. I also agree that the devil tempts us all the time.

Well, we are only human, but at least you're onto his tricks.

But I don't believe asking people to pray for us is a deception, but rather is pleasing to God and shows our love for Him and our love for each other.

I agree, and God even TOLD us to pray for each other and even with each other:
Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree
about anything you ask for,
it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

I am fine with your disagreeing with the fact that we see the Saints undivided and you do, in "death," I just ask that you please be a bit more respectful of people's prayer life.

This is a debate forum Dorothea.
I am "debating" a topic.
Stating my own opinion and why I believe as I do.
Just as you can do that same thing...
It's not personal.

I would not question the way you pray to God in private.

I actually haven't questioned you at all Dorothea.
This is (no offense) not about you at all.
If you did want to question the way I pray, you'd be in good company:
I pray in tongues and defend it here frequently
It doesn't bother me a bit that others think it's of the devil.
It's clearly outlined in Scripture, so I can be sure that it's a God thing.

 

[LOCO]

If you claim so.


I'm at a lost for words why you would give these elders a name when the scripture doesn't or why you would call them saints when the scripture doesn't.

And to Dorothea, there are 13 Apostles? So, which Apostle didn't get in as an elder?

Who else would they be?

Who do you think these 24 elders 'humans' in heaven are if they are not the 12 Apostles and the 12 Patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel?

Enlighten us.

We don't know where Judas is.

His replacement St Matthias is the 12 Apostle in Heaven.