Sadly, NATO actually needs America. Despite Russia's economy being tiny - their military spending is huge

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Neither is stationeing NATO countries around Russia's borders.

You just proved my point.

Without NATO membership, countries bordering Russia will face similar challenges as Ukraine and Georgia. Today or tomorrow Russia will invade and seize their territories.

This is why NATO should expand to include all European democracies.

 

[Laodicean60]

The reason they accepted the invitation is because they know Russia.

And notice that Sweden and Finland did remain neutral until recently, which indicates they consider Putin a greater threat than even the Soviet Union had been.

Putin found that NATO didn't want a neutral Ukraine he attacked before that Crimea. No one wanted to listen to him in Obamas admin. I'm sure you've heard Putin in 2021. Lets logically think this through, if big bad Russia wanted to take over the world why didn't they invade Finland (neutral for how many years?) which was not a NATO country.

But after all the deaths, Putin's going to get what he originally asked for.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

NATO has no purpose. It's a dinosaur. It doesn't belong in the modern world.

Land grabbing by powerful countries like Russia from weaker nations like Ukraine or Georgia has no place in the modern world. It seems you are more focused on organizations that defend against aggression than on dictators who invade and occupy sovereign countries.

 

[Chesterton]

I can understand the Russian perspective, but I will never accept their concerns as a justification to invade and take territory.
NATO has never set foot in Russian territory nor would it. It was and is a defensive pact.

Russia has another choice:

With drawl their forces. Allow Ukraine to join NATO. And never attack a NATO member.

I don't think you fully understand the Russian perspective. You're speaking as an American. As Zelensky said the other day, "you have oceans". We also have friendly neighbors in Canada and Mexico, and we're very strong.

 

[Laodicean60]

Well, it's certainly cowardly to kowtow to a nuclear superpower.

I think it's stupid not to listen.

But I think now we have to go back to China's old concept that the US is just a "paper tiger."

No, let's not, because I know we are not. China knows we are not because they'd have troops in Taiwan right now.

 

[Chesterton]

Putin's behavior past few years demonstrate otherwise. Ask an Estonian if they think NATO is not necessary.

Do you want to return back to a pre 1946 world when nations regularly engaged in territorial conflicts?

The key words in your post are past few years. If someone keeps poking a person in the chest it's likely that person is eventually going to throw a punch.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Putin found that NATO didn't want a neutral Ukraine he attacked before that Crimea. No one wanted to listen to him in Obamas admin. I'm sure you've heard Putin in 2021. Lets logically think this through, if big bad Russia wanted to take over the world why didn't they invade Finland (neutral for how many years?) which was not a NATO country.

But after all the deaths, Putin's going to get what he originally asked for.

The most frustrating part is that, despite the deaths caused by the Russian invasion, the U.S. President and some Americans are willing to give Putin what he wants and then blame U.S. and European foreign policy.

If we hadn't witnessed this ourselves, we would think it's a low-budget Hollywood movie that no one would watch.

 

[Laodicean60]

Russia wants it's neighbours to be neutral so that it can take a bite out of them without repercussion

Like Finland? It's not logical that you have to be in NATO for peace; Finland is proof of that.

Georgia was neutral

The carrot of NATO was waved in front of their faces.

 

[RDKirk]

I think it's stupid not to listen.

No, let's not, because I know we are not. China knows we are not because they'd have troops in Taiwan right now.

I think China is realizing over the past few days that we are.

 

[Laodicean60]

The most frustrating part is that, despite the deaths caused by the Russian invasion, the U.S. President and some Americans are willing to give Putin what he wants and then blame U.S. and European foreign policy.

What's frustrating to me is the endless wars the USA created and the NATO hegemony. What happened to all the old peace-loving liberals from my youth?

 

[RDKirk]

Like Finland? It's not logical that you have to be in NATO for peace; Finland is proof of that.

NATO had stopped asking them decades ago...this was Finland's initiative.

 

[RDKirk]

Putin found that NATO didn't want a neutral Ukraine he attacked before that Crimea. No one wanted to listen to him in Obamas admin. I'm sure you've heard Putin in 2021. Lets logically think this through, if big bad Russia wanted to take over the world why didn't they invade Finland (neutral for how many years?) which was not a NATO country.

Clearly, Putin's invasion of Ukraine caused them to recalculate their situation.

 

[Laodicean60]

I think China is realizing over the past few days that we are.

I'll be watching the news, they are probably preparing for the invasion as we speak. If China moves north for resources, who will you root for?

 

[Laodicean60]

NATO had stopped asking them decades ago...this was Finland's initiative.

Right, and it was a smart decision, just like India's decline of NATO. Russia has not attacked either. And if you are a leader of the free world and want peace, you have to decline membership to keep the peace.

It won't take article 5 for us to help any neutral country; we have examples in history where we have.

 

[Nithavela]

Like Finland? It's not logical that you have to be in NATO for peace; Finland is proof of that.

Never heard of the Winter War, eh?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

What's frustrating to me is the endless wars the USA created and the NATO hegemony. What happened to all the old peace-loving liberals from my youth?

I have never spent time with peace-loving liberals, so I am not aware of their activities. The last time I saw them was last summer when they were protesting at various universities and referring to the sitting US president as "Genocide Joe."

As an proud American, I would prefer U.S. and NATO hegemony over Russian and Chinese hegemony. But it seems like there are American who claim to make America great, yet they preferred Russian and Chinese hegemony and a weak US.

 

[Laodicean60]

Never heard of the Winter War, eh?

The whole of Europe was hostile in those days. I'm talking about recent history, like 40 years.

 

[Nithavela]

The whole of Europe was hostile in those days. I'm talking about recent history, like 40 years.

What a convenient timeframe for your argument.

Russia wouldn't attack Finland as easily as Ukraine because the reasons the Winter War went so bad for the UDSSR haven't fundamentally changed. At least that was the reasoning behind Finland staying out of NATO until Russia went a bridge too far.

 

[Laodicean60]

I have never spent time with peace-loving liberals, so I am not aware of their activities.

I guess you are too young. You might have to talk to older people, but Democrats all flipped to be warmongers.

As an proud American, I would prefer U.S. and NATO hegemony over Russian and Chinese hegemony.

Because of the hegemony, Russia and China joined hands against us along with all the BRICS. You have to ask yourself why America is losing its influence around the world. You won't know unless you hear other leaders talk.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I guess you are too young. You might have to talk to older people, but Democrats all flipped to be warmongers.

Because of the hegemony, Russia and China joined hands against us along with all the BRICS. You have to ask yourself why America is losing its influence around the world. You won't know unless you hear other leaders talk.

The United States appears to be losing influence among some Americans who support the idea of making America great, yet align with Russia and blame America for various global issues.

BRICE is just a small drop in an ocean.


BRICE = Russia 1.8+ China 18.4 +India 3.7 + Brazil 2.1+ Iran 368b + South Africa - 405 b + Egypt -387b + Ethiopia 156b + UAE -499b + Saudi Arab 1.1t + Argentina 641 =29.5 trillion

vs

USA 25.1 + Japan 4.9 + UK 2.8 + Canada 1.7 + South Korea 1.9 + Australia 1.8 + EU 17 = 55.2 trillion total GDP.

I prefer US stay with it’s ally.

I see where the problem is, some Americans may struggle to understand that a $55 trillion economy is greater than a $29 trillion economy.