Sadly, NATO actually needs America. Despite Russia's economy being tiny - their military spending is huge

[eclipsenow]

Hi all,
on dollar parity levels - Russia's military spending looks much smaller than the EU's - just in sheer currency volumes.

But I didn't realise how much cheaper it was to buy military hardware in Russia.

When you compare purchasing power parity, Russia's smaller economy and smaller military cash spending actually adds up to about the EU's because of their smaller hardware price tag!

On the weekend Trump fractured the image of NATO solidarity.​

​

He betrayed the west.​

He has sent the 'all clear' signal to Russia and China that they can do whatever they want!​

 

[rambot]

While I'm sure they would PREFER America's help, they can't control the capricious nature of its leadership and have to do what they can to protect themselves.

This invasion of Ukraine has laid it pretty bare to me that Russian leadership just has an absolute crush on that country and their military capacity doesn't actually offer much.

I am curious if Trump's obvious kowtowing to Putin is going to end up getting him American military equipment behind Russia in the end.

He has no problem poisoning the well...and we hear people saying nonsense like "Putin and Zelenskyy are the same". I would be surprised if Republicans won't be normalizing an action like that.

 

[eclipsenow]

While I'm sure they would PREFER America's help, they can't control the capricious nature of its leadership and have to do what they can to protect themselves.

This invasion of Ukraine has laid it pretty bare to me that Russian leadership just has an absolute crush on that country and their military capacity doesn't actually offer much.

I am curious if Trump's obvious kowtowing to Putin is going to end up getting him American military equipment behind Russia in the end.

He has no problem poisoning the well...and we hear people saying nonsense like "Putin and Zelenskyy are the same". I would be surprised if Republicans won't be normalizing an action like that.

They have not nudged the Overton window - they've attached rockets to that thing and are launching it into space!

 

[ozso]

While I'm sure they would PREFER America's help, they can't control the capricious nature of its leadership and have to do what they can to protect themselves.

This invasion of Ukraine has laid it pretty bare to me that Russian leadership just has an absolute crush on that country and their military capacity doesn't actually offer much.

I am curious if Trump's obvious kowtowing to Putin is going to end up getting him American military equipment behind Russia in the end.

The question I keep asking regarding Trump kowtowing to Putin is, how aggressive towards Putin do folks want Trump to be? Putin has threatened to launch nukes if the US goes too far against him. So how far do folks want Trump to push the envelope? How close to the brink of WW3 is Trump supposed to take us to "stop Putin"?

He has no problem poisoning the well...and we hear people saying nonsense like "Putin and Zelenskyy are the same". I would be surprised if Republicans won't be normalizing an action like that.

When is Zelenskyy's term as President up? When is the next election going to be? One of the definitions of a dictator is a leader with no term limit.

 

[SimplyMe]

The question I keep asking regarding Trump kowtowing to Putin is, how aggressive towards Putin do folks want Trump to be? Putin has threatened to launch nukes if the US goes too far against him. So how far do folks want Trump to push the envelope? How close to the brink of WW3 is Trump supposed to take us to "stop Putin"?

Putin is not stupid enough to launch nukes -- he knows it would cause a response from the world. Of course, your response is exactly what Putin depends on, why he keeps invading other countries, as he knows "the West" is too weak and unwilling to stand up to him. Until someone stands up to him, Putin will keep up the same behavior.

When is Zelenskyy's term as President up? When is the next election going to be? One of the definitions of a dictator is a leader with no term limit.

Why don't you check the Ukrainian Constitution -- as I understand, it has a pretty clear timeline of when it will be (even if the exact time it will occur is dependent on the war ending).

 

[ozso]

Putin is not stupid enough to launch nukes -- he knows it would cause a response from the world. Of course, your response is exactly what Putin depends on, why he keeps invading other countries, as he knows "the West" is too weak and unwilling to stand up to him. Until someone stands up to him, Putin will keep up the same behavior.

I'd like to see you lay out that scenario. The West (meaning mostly the US) stands up to Putin in what way? What's the course of action supposed to be? And how is Putin going to react to it?

Why don't you check the Ukrainian Constitution -- as I understand, it has a pretty clear timeline of when it will be (even if the exact time it will occur is dependent on the war ending).

I did look into it. That was the point of my question, there isn't one. And so Zelenskyy stays in power as long as the war keeps going. Interesting.

 

[FireDragon76]

Hi all,
on dollar parity levels - Russia's military spending looks much smaller than the EU's - just in sheer currency volumes.

But I didn't realise how much cheaper it was to buy military hardware in Russia.

When you compare purchasing power parity, Russia's smaller economy and smaller military cash spending actually adds up to about the EU's because of their smaller hardware price tag!

On the weekend Trump fractured the image of NATO solidarity.​

​

He betrayed the west.​

​

He has sent the 'all clear' signal to Russia and China that they can do whatever they want!​

Spending doesn't get you a quality military if a large amount of it is stolen away due to corruption. Most of their army is made of ill-trained conscripts, criminals, and alcoholics. They've even had Russian and Soviet subs lost just because their crews were so bad at saving their own ships, owing to the caliber of conscripts they are able to get. In contrast, people in western militaries are highly motivated, well trained, better paid, and aren't there because they have no choice.


With no access to advanced semiconductor fabrication technologies (theirs are about two decades behind the West), NATO should have a substantial technological edge in terms of command, control, and communications, drones, and the processing of recon and intelligence data. And recon and intelligence capability are force multipliers, as it means you will be able to determine the place and location you fight that is most favorable.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'd like to see you lay out that scenario. The West (meaning mostly the US) stands up to Putin in what way? What's the course of action supposed to be? And how is Putin going to react to it?

I did look into it. That was the point of my question, there isn't one. And so Zelenskyy stays in power as long as the war keeps going. Interesting.

All bullies are cowards. All it takes to stand up to Putin is to see through his veil of deception and lies. The only way Putin can win is for people to merely believe what is convenient and gratifying, rather than what is true.

 

[ozso]

All bullies are cowards. All it takes to stand up to Putin is to see through his veil of deception and lies. The only way Putin can win is for people to merely believe what is convenient and gratifying, rather than what is true.

Sounds like you have no idea of what course of political and or military action should be taken. It's just supposed to happen.

However if it really is as vague and simplistic as you put it, then why didn’t the Biden administration and NATO implement it?

 

[FireDragon76]

Sounds like you have no idea of what course of political and or military action should be taken. It's just supposed to happen.

However if it really is as vague and simplistic as you put it, then why didn’t the Biden administration and NATO implement it?

They did. These things take time, unlike Trump who makes magical, but ultimately illusory promises about everything. Anything worth doing is probably going to take effort. But Trump is lazy, and prefers to just wash his hands of things and bully people that refuse to go along with that.

 

[ozso]

They did. These things take time, unlike Trump who makes magical, but ultimately illusory promises. Anything worth doing is probably going to take effort.

I learned some time ago that "these things take time" really means it isn't working and likey never will. As a matter of fact Zelenskyy himself said it hasn't been working and likey never will.

 

[FireDragon76]

I learned some time ago that "these things take time" really means it isn't working and likey never will. As a matter of fact Zelenskyy himself said it hasn't been working and likey never will.

The US didn't put men on the moon the day after Sputnik. It took over a decade to do that. Likewise, the great cathedrals of Europe sometimes took generations to build.

O ye of little faith...

 

[ozso]

The US didn't put men on the moon the day after Sputnik. It took over a decade to do that. Likewise, the great cathedrals of Europe sometimes took generations to build.

O ye of little faith...

Tell that to Zelenskyy. One of these days... just hang in there another decade or two. Sorry, but ridiculous. And obviously there's no realistic idea of how it should be handled being presented. Philosophy in a situation like this is a deflection from just admitting "I don't actually know".

 

[eclipsenow]

The question I keep asking regarding Trump kowtowing to Putin is, how aggressive towards Putin do folks want Trump to be? Putin has threatened to launch nukes if the US goes too far against him. So how far do folks want Trump to push the envelope? How close to the brink of WW3 is Trump supposed to take us to "stop Putin"?

Trump is supposed to calmly ask Putin to retreat from Ukraine and return at least the 2022 borders to Ukraine.
Trump is supposed to stand with NATO in supplying a democratic friend with the armaments they need.

The Ukrainians are ONLY asking for military aid.

THEY are the ones spilling their blood in the dirt!
THEY are the ones standing the line.

They're not asking us to die for them - THEIR DYING FOR US!

Sure they are dying to defend their own country against an imperialist dictator trying to expand westwards into their country.
But in doing so they slow Imperialist Russian aggression westwards.
In doing so they defend NATO against Putin's delusions about restoring the old USSR!

When are Trump and Vance going to THANK ZELENSKYY for Ukrainian blood shed to hold the line?​

Or don't they care if Europe just falls to Putin?

When is Zelenskyy's term as President up? When is the next election going to be?

This? Really? You're going to sink this low? Seriously - that's just downright offensive.

You are THAT keen to defend 'the honour' of some of the worst public behaviour from an American President EVER - that you would rather insinuate that a democratic friend under attack is actually a dictator?

I guess we become like our heroes after all.
We have to be VERY careful who we pick as our heroes!

So - to be consistent - are you calling the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand dictatorships?

During World War II, several Western democratic nations either suspended or significantly altered their electoral processes due to the war. Here are some key examples:

The UK. Their last election was 1935 - the next one was July 1945. After Germany surrendered. (By-elections for vacant parliamentary seats still occurred.).

Canada: The government extended its term. The 1940 federal election was held as scheduled, but the next one did not occur until 1945.

Australia: Australia did not suspend elections entirely, but certain state elections were delayed.

New Zealand: Originally scheduled for 1941, until 1943 due to the war.

One of the definitions of a dictator is a leader with no term limit.

You're really proving to be true to form for my worst fears of the entire MAGA movement.
I genuinely hope this is just a stage America is going through.

 

[Nithavela]

I genuinely hope this is just a stage America is going through.

It's a stage to something much worse.

 

[ozso]

Trump is supposed to calmly ask Putin to retreat from Ukraine and return at least the 2022 borders to Ukraine.
Trump is supposed to stand with NATO in supplying a democratic friend with the armaments they need.

The Ukrainians are ONLY asking for military aid.

THEY are the ones spilling their blood in the dirt!
THEY are the ones standing the line.

They're not asking us to die for them - THEIR DYING FOR US!

Sure they are dying to defend their own country against an imperialist dictator trying to expand westwards into their country.
But in doing so they slow Imperialist Russian aggression westwards.
In doing so they defend NATO against Putin's delusions about restoring the old USSR!

When are Trump and Vance going to THANK ZELENSKYY for Ukrainian blood shed to hold the line?​

Or don't they care if Europe just falls to Putin?

View attachment 361922


This? Really? You're going to sink this low? Seriously - that's just downright offensive.

You are THAT keen to defend 'the honour' of some of the worst public behaviour from an American President EVER - that you would rather insinuate that a democratic friend under attack is actually a dictator?

I guess we become like our heroes after all.
We have to be VERY careful who we pick as our heroes!

So - to be consistent - are you calling the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand dictatorships?

During World War II, several Western democratic nations either suspended or significantly altered their electoral processes due to the war. Here are some key examples:

The UK. Their last election was 1935 - the next one was July 1945. After Germany surrendered. (By-elections for vacant parliamentary seats still occurred.).

Canada: The government extended its term. The 1940 federal election was held as scheduled, but the next one did not occur until 1945.

Australia: Australia did not suspend elections entirely, but certain state elections were delayed.

New Zealand: Originally scheduled for 1941, until 1943 due to the war.

You're really proving to be true to form for my worst fears of the entire MAGA movement.
I genuinely hope this is just a stage America is going through.

So what will end the conflict is simply Trump politely asking Putin to withdraw.

Ukraine has been given lots of military aid for years and it hasn't done anything to end the conflict.

So the idea is Putin can't push forward to take over the world until he conquers Ukraine.

I'm sure you can find more dictatorships than non-dictatorships that entailed a leader who had no term limits.

And term limits were established in many nations after WW2 for a good reason.

 

[RamiC]

Unless it turns out that actually America needs NATO, for reasons that are not currently being recognised.

It is entirely their choice. No one should be forced into an alliance.

 

[Laodicean60]

One of these days... just hang in there another decade or two.

They'll run out of fighter before this.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

The question I keep asking regarding Trump kowtowing to Putin is, how aggressive towards Putin do folks want Trump to be? Putin has threatened to launch nukes if the US goes too far against him. So how far do folks want Trump to push the envelope? How close to the brink of WW3 is Trump supposed to take us to "stop Putin"?

When is Zelenskyy's term as President up? When is the next election going to be? One of the definitions of a dictator is a leader with no term limit.

Elections will take place in Ukraine once Russia withdraws its presence. There seems to be significant concern from some American regarding elections in Ukraine, but there has been little attention given to the lack of free and fair elections in Russia over the past 25 years. Additionally, there is limited focus on the actions of Putin, who has reportedly killed political opponents before they can participate in the electoral process.

One of the definition of dictator is a leader who kill anyone who oppos him politically.

Here are 10 prominent Putin critics who have died in assassinations or mysterious circumstances.

Alexei Navalny​

• Age: 47
• Date of Death: February 16, 2024
• Cause of Death: Alexei Navalny died in prison. The Russian prison service reported that he felt unwell after a walk and lost consciousness.
• Biography: Alexei Navalny was a prominent critic of Vladimir Putin. He gained global attention in 2020 when he survived a poisoning with the nerve agent Novichok. Navalny willingly returned to Russia from Germany in 2021, where he had received treatment for the previous poisoning. Upon his return, he was promptly arrested. Navalny was known for exposing corruption, investigating Putin's inner circle, and leading anti-Kremlin opposition movements. His death is likely to be seen by fellow opposition members as a political assassination attributable to Putin, but is as yet unexplained.

Mikhail Lesin​

• Age: 57
• Date of Death: November 5, 2015
• Cause of Death: Mikhail Lesin was a former Russian press minister and media executive. He fell out of favor with Putin and faced scrutiny for his wealth. Lesin was found dead in a Washington, D.C. hotel room. The official cause of death was ruled as accidental blunt force injuries, but questions persist about the circumstances.

Boris Nemtsov​

• Age: 55
• Date of Death: February 27, 2015
• Cause of Death: Boris Nemtsov was shot dead on a bridge near the Kremlin. His murder remains unsolved, but many believe it was politically motivated. Nemtsov was a vocal critic of Putin's government, advocating for democracy, human rights, and transparency. He served as a deputy prime minister under President Boris Yeltsin and later became a prominent opposition figure.

Boris Berezovsky​

• Age: 67
• Date of Death: March 23, 2013
• Cause of Death: Boris Berezovsky was a wealthy businessman, oligarch, and former ally of Putin. However, he became a vocal critic and fled to the U.K. Berezovsky was found dead in his home in Berkshire, England. The official cause of death was ruled as suicide, but suspicions remain due to his high-profile opposition activities.

Sergei Magnitsky​

• Age: 37
• Date of Death: November 16, 2009
• Cause of Death: Sergei Magnitsky was a lawyer and auditor who exposed a massive tax fraud scheme involving Russian officials. He was arrested, imprisoned, and denied medical treatment. Magnitsky died in custody following severe beatings and medical neglect. His death led to the passing of the Magnitsky Act in the United States, which sanctions Russian officials involved in human rights abuses and corruption.

Stanislav Markelov​

• Age: 34
• Date of Death: January 19, 2009
• Cause of Death: Stanislav Markelov was a human rights lawyer and journalist. He was assassinated in Moscow by a gunman who also killed journalist Anastasia Baburova. Markelov had represented victims of human rights abuses and criticized the Russian government's actions in Chechnya. His death raised concerns about the safety of those opposing the regime.

Anastasia Baburova​

• Age: 25
• Date of Death: January 19, 2009
• Cause of Death: Anastasia Baburova, a journalist and activist, was shot dead alongside human rights lawyer Stanislav Markelov in Moscow. She had reported on neo-Nazi groups and political violence. Her murder remains unsolved, but it is believed to be connected to her activism.

Natalia Estemirova​

• Age: 50
• Date of Death: July 15, 2009
• Cause of Death: Natalia Estemirova, a human rights activist and journalist, was abducted in Grozny, Chechnya, and found dead later that day. She had documented human rights violations in Chechnya and criticized the government. Her murder remains unsolved, but it is widely believed to be connected to her activism and criticism of the Chechen authorities.

Anna Politkovskaya​

• Age: 48
• Date of Death: October 7, 2006
• Cause of Death: Anna Politkovskaya, an investigative journalist, was shot dead in her apartment building in Moscow. She had reported extensively on human rights abuses, corruption, and the war in Chechnya. Her work was critical of Putin's government, and her murder sparked international outrage. Despite investigations, the masterminds behind her killing have not been brought to justice.

Yuri Shchekochikhin​

• Age: 53
• Date of Death: July 3, 2003
• Cause of Death: Yuri Shchekochikhin was a journalist, writer, and member of the Russian State Duma. He investigated corruption, organized crime, and human rights abuses. Shchekochikhin suddenly fell ill and died from an unknown cause. Some suspect poisoning, but the circumstances remain unclear.

 

[Laodicean60]

So what will end the conflict is simply Trump politely asking Putin to withdraw.

If anyone believes this and expects it, they are truly delusional.