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I was hoping for more Chuck Norris jokes.
It is a man made barrier between God and man that was made by certain men to give a certain institution power over men.
Sacraments are the means in which your churches deliver grace, right?the sacraments are acts of Christ by and through His Body of believers, so yes, other people are necessary -- we are a body, if you want to call that a barrier then so be it.
Sacraments are the means in which your churches deliver grace, right?
So God's grace is insulated by your churches, yes?
Because as you seem to be indicating you are unable to access the means of God's graces which are delivered through those sacraments without a sacerdos/priest
Actually it's the bishop that is required. The priest acting in the place of the bishop developed as the church grew and the bishops couldn't be everywhere at once. This is not a separation from God, but rather is ordained by God as His means of giving order. The NT clearly illustrates this throughout. Christ had an inner circle of 12. He ordained those 12 with special power and authority. The Last Supper was not a free for all, with everyone invited - it was with the 12. Christ presided over the meal, a meal of love, just as the bishop now presides over the Eucharist - not a barrier but in remembrance and emulation of the Last Supper as specifically directed by Christ. Heaven is not full of chaos. As we ascend during the Divine Liturgy we cannot be in chaos either and therefor follow the example of Christ. Shall we also claim that the seraphim are a barrier to God? The angles created as ministering spirits? This is complete rubbish. Did the seraphim forgive his sin? With an attitude like this, what will be your reaction when the seraphim bring the coal to your mouth? Will you brazenly refuse it and demand an audience with the almighty so that you can explain to Him how His ministers are no longer needed??? Think about it...
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
Where so is it shown that a bishop is REQUIRED?Actually it's the bishop that is required.
I'm asking some very specific questions that require understanding the difference between a sacerdos and a presbyter if you fail to understand the difference i would appreciate not sidetracking the questions i posed to kristos.Why were they ordained in the first place?
Why would Christ's Apostles set up a structured Church with Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons?
Why were they ordained in the first place?
Why would Christ's Apostles set up a structured Church with Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons?
To me this is the biggest problem with Evangelical Churchs, it's out of control.
1. Pick up Bible
2. Create your own interpretation,
3. Call yourself "Pastor"
4. Create some Capital
5. Create a new Denomination.
It's like the wild west .
Where so is it shown that a bishop is REQUIRED?
Also, where does scripture show the teaching that grace is administered through the one so ordained?
Sure it is, except you aren't aware that's what happened about 1800 years ago as the church departed from what was handed down. Jesus didn't establish the concept of 3 separate offices of bishop, priest, deacon, but rather elder and deacon. The tri-fold designation began with Ignatius so-called.
As well, the idea of separate and redefined bishop and priest classes arose as the concept of eucharist as sacrifice entered the church.
Jesus Role is still active in Him and not in a man. It is His blood shed that wiped away our sins. This is why He ever lives to intercede for us..Where is it not?
The last supper, the feeding, the great commission, Paul's assertion of his apostleship, etc etc etc...
Most specifically, the grace, that is the love of God is clearly administered through the Eucharist:
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Yes - this is the love that is manifested in the sacrement of the gathering, the culmination of which is union with God, He who is divided yet remains whole, He who is consumed yet is never consumed, He who is fully present yet never in heaven. This is the love that Christ showed the apostles at the Last Supper and commanded them to go and show this love to each other. This is the new covenant - love; the love Christ exhibited in the gather of His flock together in His name, we become the Body of Christ and we consume the Body of Christ, He is the head of the Body - the priest or bishop fulfills role of He who is Ascended into heaven, who's body is glorified, he is the tongs that delivers the coal to our lips that wipes away our transgressions. This is the scripture, this is the truth - there is no way around it.
This is false.
-snip-
The Didache Teaching of the Apostles
"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]
This is false.
St .Ignatius born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome 110 Ad. received his episcopal consecration at the hands of the Apostles themselves constitutes one of the most important links between the Apostles and the Fathers of the early Church. Receiving from the Apostles themselves, whose auditor he was, not only the substance of revelation, but also their own inspired interpretation of it; dwelling, as it were, at the very fountain-head of Gospel truth.
"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."
Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to the Smyraens,8 (c.A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89-90.
What is the third one?Yes and the didache that you quote recognizes only bishop and deacon. Two offices versus three. Which one is false in your opinion?
Many believe that the letters of Ignatius are spurious interpolations written later and attached to his name. They cannot be used to establish doctrine.
Yes here it is and we can see no special sacred giving "in the person of Jesus" mentioned in the job descript...In addition, in the next paragraph, the didache, following scripture, recognizes only elders (bishops) and deacons. Nothing about a priest. So it's impossible to be referencing the later idea of a priest and resacrifice.
What is the third one?
Yes here it is and we can see no special sacred giving "in the person of Jesus" mentioned in the job descript...
Chapter 15. Bishops and Deacons; Christian Reproof. Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord.
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