Sabbath?

[Frogster]

There are no loopholes. But more important than just doing something because it is a commandment is to understand the meaning of why. The Sabbath is one of the most important days by virtue of the fact that YHWH wanted us to practice it every week. It is refreshing that you did not take the road that it is passe as if God just created these things to toy with people and see if they can follow directions. Instead of should we do it or not do it like most of the comments here maybe people should be asking why? Some of the questions that you should ask maybe are. What did it stand for? Why could you not do your customary work or the work of the heavenly messengers? Why was it the 7th day? Why could you not kindle a fire? What does it mean that God rested? Why did he rest? What is the 7th day?

Why didn't paul want the galatian churches on the jewish calendar?

 

[7steps]

Another great question is what authority does a human have to contradict YHWH and Yahshua commandments?

 

[Frogster]

Another great question is what authority does a human have to contradict YHWH and Yahshua commandments?

Acts 9:15. Authority.
It was in the law all along, the just shall live by faith, no contradiciton, ending...

 

[7steps]

Acts 9:15. Authority.
It was in the law all along, the just shall live by faith, no contradiciton, ending...

I don't understand why you are quoting my statements nothing that you have said contradicts what I wrote? Actually Why was it that we were not suppose to do the customary work and the work of the heavenly messengers? Ask yourself that question and you will understand the reason instead of you usual knee jerk reaction of law vs grace.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Was this the rest God swore that they would not ever enter into? I don't think that rest from their enemies is what God calls MY REST

But as usual people interject things into a biblical passage that is not there. You must consider the context of Hebrews 4 and understand it from its context. The rest Jesus was speaking in Matthew is not the same as Hebrews 4. People make the connection and ignore the context. The rest God swore they would not enter into the rest that those verses spoke about. Joshua 21:44 clearly says that it was that rest that he swore they would not enter into. This is not the only rest hebrews refers to however. Hebrews also refers to the Sabbath rest and in verse 9 the greek word used for rest is only used once in the entire NT and it literally means A Sabbath Rest. You might disagree with this, but considering the context I will also say there is a future rest we must enter into, in a future promised land. One where Jesus will defeat the enemies of death and the grave and we will get eternal rest. Just as those before didn't enter rest because of unbelief, so we too will not be able to enter into that future promised land if we do not believe.

Is the My law the ten commandments of the covenant? NO! As I have shown it is a new covenant not like the one made with their fathers identified as the ten commandments in Deut 4:13; 5:2-5 that are written on stone. Can you show a different covenant? NO!

What other law can God be referring to when he said, "My Law". What other law does God have that he has not revealed. The covenant made with the fathers is different than the new covenant. The chapters of hebrews 8 - 10 gives detail about the differences in the covenant. A covenant is an agreement. The people said, "All that you say we will do" but they broke their promise over and over again. The law by itself cannot be a covenant, but it can be apart of a covenant. My house is apart of the agreement but the house is not the agreement. When the covenant ends, my house does not disappear. In the new covenant it is different. Instead of the blood of bulls and goats we have the actual blood of Jesus. No shadow but reality. Instead of the earthly high priest Jesus is out high priest. No shadow but reality. The promises of the new covenant are better because it is centered around Jesus. And now he puts the law in our hearts on stony tables of flesh so we can keep it like how Jesus showed how the law is kept in the heart.

What is strange to me and something I really want you to respond to, is why there is so much focus on the 10 commandments being the old covenant when 3 complete chapters in Hebrews speaking of the old covenant doesn't make any specific reference to the 10 commandments at all but focuses on the animal sacrifices and ordinances. Why do you have to different focus.

So do you beleive that you can keep the commandments? If so why do you break them every week at a mimimun? I am talking about the holy sabbath you proclaim to keep. You just don't keep it according to the law or even the ten commandments.

That is not correct to say because you don't know me or anything about me. All you are doing however, is doubting the power of God. The question I would ask, is that if we could keep the law perfectly, what is the purpose of Christ dying on the cross. We are going to sin, and that is why he died. So because God's grace about do we willfully sin? God forbid! Do we trangress the law of God, which is sin.. God forbid!

Yes Jesus said we will keep His commandments. What are they? You claim that they are the ten commandments. How can this be? John 15:10 states:
If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love. We know that Jesus kept the ten commandments and the rest of the law without flaw. So what are Jesus' commandments. They can't be the same as His (Jesus') commandments.

So you are saying that the commandments of God are different to the commandments of Jesus. Why would God and Jesus have a different set of commandments? Or then the question is, if Jesus gives different commandments, would they overwrite God's commandments. What does Jesus give to replace, "thou shalt not kill"? The only answer you can give is an expansion of the commandment and not a contradiction. Jesus kept his fathers commandments because he loved God. We will do the same. Love is the fulfilling of the law. If you love your neighbour you will fulfill the last 6 commandments. If you love God you will fulfill the first 4.

What evidence do you have that Jesus preformed more than the law? None! I guess that you might try to say that everyone has their own set of commandments which of course I do not buy.

I never said Jesus performed more than the law. What he did was exemplify what the law really means by the way he kept it. The written law does not talk about lust but Jesus said that if you lust you have committed adultery in your heart. The written law doesn't speak about hating your brother in your mind, but Jesus that indeed it is a violation of the command, "thou shalt not murder". When the holy spirit is in you and controls your life, the law in your heart becomes active and the written law is kept the way it aught to be.

You should notice as has been pointed out to you before that there is no command or commandment in the the NT to observe the sabbath. I know you might say I am looking for a loop hole to avoid the 4th. That would be incorrect. I would say that using your vehicle on the sabbath and denying that it is your beast of burden is a loop hole to disobey the 4th fo the 10. As I pointed out above it is the new covenant not like the one issued at Sinai written on stone. Movement does not make something new

There is no command to not take God's name in vain either, but Jesus endorses the command by stating that those who follow the commandments of men instead of the commandments of God worship him in vain. He also made mention of the pharisees who were taking God's name in vain while their hearts were far from him. Jesus endorsed the Sabbath when he kept it perfectly. When he said that it is not against the law to do good on the Sabbath. When he made it his custom to be in the synagogue on the Sabbath. His example is the endorsement. You do not have to recommend something that has not changed for it to keep existing. You cannot find the words, "thou shalt have no other God's before me" in the NT. All of God's commandments are endorsed in the New Testament. Jesus's life is the best endorsement.

You use law here to mean the Torah especially the ten commandments. That is not what Jeremiah says at all. Jeremiah says NEW NOT LIKE THE ONE MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS. You are insisting it is the same law. I did not give you Paul for a reason. Paul says very plainly we are to throw out the law Gal 4:30. He also says that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. Romans 10:4 He also says we are delivered from the law; we are not under the law. He also says you can not have both Gal 5:2-4. How do you get that keeping the commandments can get you into heaven? The young man's testimony was that he did so and yet left knowing that he did not have eternal life.

Like i said before, the new covenant has a better mediator, better promises and is full of the reality instead of the shadows. There is nothing to suggests that the law has to change if you look at the detailed description of the Old Covenant. The agreement in the NC is better than the old. God is making a new agreement with Israel, not like the agreement he made with them before. In this agreement he now writes the law on their hearts in additional to all the better changes made before. That is what you get from hebrews 8 - 10.

Did Abraham keep the ten commandments? No! They came 430 years after he died. Gal 3:17. So it was impossible for him to keep the law.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The focus on the books of Moses is really the children of Israel. Therefore there is no detail about the statutes, commandments and laws God gave to Abraham. Why should we assume it is anything different to what God gave to Israel. Did Abraham have to follow a different standard?

Besides Moses said very plainly that no one before was given the law. Deut 5:3.You sure trip all over your self. See the highlighted statement above. This is not inline with what you usaually state or always support. What then is the law or the ten commandments if it is not a guide to or about righteousness?Then why doesn't Paul tell the Galatians to observe the law instead of throw it out?

No one was given the written law. The reason God gave them the written law was because after 430 years of Egyptian slavery they lost sight of the true God and started adopting the Egyptian system of worship and beliefs. God has to re educate them. At the giving of the law he says to remember the Sabbath. How could he tell them to remember something they never knew before. Cain sinned did he not? He was punished for his sin. He was in violation of a law that he knew. He knew killing was wrong. The Sabbath was made at creation. The law was always there but not in written form. Abraham did keep God's commandments. The law points out what is right and wrong. It gives a knowledge of sin. A knowledge of sin does not prevent us from sinning. In the flesh it only makes us sin more. Only in Jesus can we do what is right and be obedient to him. So it is Jesus that is the cause of our righteousness both imparted and imputed, not the law. Without the law however, we would not know sin as Paul rightly said.

What law does love fulfill?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

That my friend is no excuse for not keeping the law?

Who said I was making excuses. I don't understand what you mean.

 

[Frogster]

I don't understand why you are quoting my statements nothing that you have said contradicts what I wrote? Actually Why was it that we were not suppose to do the customary work and the work of the heavenly messengers? Ask yourself that question and you will understand the reason instead of you usual knee jerk reaction of law vs grace.

You said this>> "Another great question is what authority does a human have to contradict YHWH and Yahshua commandments?"

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The law is a shadow .

But Christ is the body casting that shadow .

the light creating the shadow effect is in Glory .

 

[from scratch]

Another great question is what authority does a human have to contradict YHWH and Yahshua commandments?

Do you accept the new covenant? Jeremiah 31:31-34 states it is different from the one issued at Sinai identified in Deut 4:13.

 

[7steps]

You said this>> "Another great question is what authority does a human have to contradict YHWH and Yahshua commandments?"

Yes I think that is a good question. I understand from a law vs grace standpoint that you would have this argument? How about the previous quote? One of the major reasons for the observance of the Sabbath is about the unmerited favor YHWH has given us. It is about all the work he has done, it is about us realizing that there is nothing we can do ourselves for our salvation. He has done it all.

 

[RibI]

Originally Posted by RibI

That's absolutely false. Maybe small type would serve you better.
The Law was not nailed to the cross. The chargers against you are.

Col. 2:14 is one verse people love to use to try to say that Paul did away with God’s Law. We need to understand what this verse is really talking about.
The Romans nailed two things to the cross 1) They nailed Jesus to the cross. 2) They nailed a sign stating that He was the king of the Jews to the cross. (i.e. the charge against Him) But Paul says, (figuratively) that “the handwriting of requirements that was against us” was also nailed to the cross.
This is the only place in the NT that these Greek words (handwriting of requirements) are used. This is a legal document, hand written by the criminal, stating the charges against him, (in our case the charge is that we have sinned; Ro. 3:23) and the debt that he owes. (our debt or penalty is death; Ro. 6:23.) This is what was nailed to the cross, not God’s Law. Read “Friberg Lexicon” and also “Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words” for a further explanation.

“The New Living Translation” makes it much clearer. Cor. 2:14“He canceled the record that contained the charges against us. He took it and destroyed it by nailing it to the cross.”

Then what were the commands that were against us, that had to be done away with, so all of our sins could be forgiven, if it was not the law? trespasses dude, a written law!

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

If it helps you out, read the small print here, from the twin epistle.


Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace

Reject the truth if you will, but you won't ever be able to say you wern't told.

 

[7steps]

Do you accept the new covenant? Jeremiah 31:31-34 states it is different from the one issued at Sinai identified in Deut 4:13.

Yes I do. What does that have to do with the statement I made.

But since you quoted it, do you believe that this prophesy is fully complete? Do you believe gentiles replaced the Israelites.
It has always been about relationship the rules were never the point. The torah, prophet and psalms have not changed. It is and will be renewed with Israel. But this does not change the fact that no one has the authority to change YHWH's rules and he did not create one set of rules and said "oh these are the wrong ones let me give you new ones". The essence of the Torah has not changed and will never change. The path to our salvation delineated by a group of people chosen by God to act as a living example (to play out if you will, the metaphor for everyone's salvation). But I don't want to argue law vs grace it is a pointless argument because I don't have an argument against God's unmerited favor and I don't believe that following 613 laws will get you closer to god. What I have learned is that observing and studying Gen, Exod, Deut, Num and Lev does give you a greater understanding of YHWH plan of redemption and His brilliant inspiration.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Do you accept the new covenant? Jeremiah 31:31-34 states it is different from the one issued at Sinai identified in Deut 4:13.

What do you believe is the law written on the heart in the new covenant?

 

[heymikey80]

Another great question is what authority does a human have to contradict YHWH and Yahshua commandments?

Well, I'm coming in in the middle of this conversation, but it doesn't seem to me a contradiction to point out the unrealism of actually performing The Ten Commandments:

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the favor of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. Acts 15:10-11​

 

[7steps]

What do you believe is the law written on the heart in the new covenant?

Yes the law will be ultimately written in those of his family. So we will have perfect understanding of it.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Well, I'm coming in in the middle of this conversation, but it doesn't seem to me a contradiction to point out the unrealism of actually performing The Ten Commandments:

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the favor of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. Acts 15:10-11​

If keeping God's commandments is so unrealistic then why did God give it in the first place?

 

[from scratch]

Yes I do. What does that have to do with the statement I made.

that has to do with Jeremiah 31:31-34. The word is new (chadash pronounced khä·däsh') and means new as in not before. There is another word chadash pronounced khä·dash' that means renew. If you compare the mirror quote in Hebrews it is easier to see. The coresponding words are kainos and neos which are impossible to confuse. Don't forget that Hebrews was written by a Jew.

The next verse (32) says not like the covenant made with their fathers. This covenant is identified in Deut 4:13 as the ten commandments. Do you know of another covenant? What is it about not like that you do not understand?

Who terminated the law? Must have been Jesus. He said 'This is My blood of the new covenant...' Mat 26:28 What new covenant was Jesus talking about, if it wasn't the one Jeremiah prophecied would come?

But since you quoted it, do you believe that this prophesy is fully complete? Do you believe gentiles replaced the Israelites.

Nope! However the Gentiles are part of the new covenant. Read Acts and especially chapter 15.

There is no Jew or Gentile in Christs Jesus- Gal 3:28. The idea that national Israel has been replaced by a spiritual Israel is a false teaching having no foundation in scripture. Those who promote such are twisting scripture for no other reason than to make merchandise of weak unlearned people.

It has always been about relationship the rules were never the point. The torah, prophet and psalms have not changed. It is and will be renewed with Israel. But this does not change the fact that no one has the authority to change YHWH's rules and he did not create one set of rules and said "oh these are the wrong ones let me give you new ones". The essence of the Torah has not changed and will never change. The path to our salvation delineated by a group of people chosen by God to act as a living example (to play out if you will, the metaphor for everyone's salvation). But I don't want to argue law vs grace it is a pointless argument because I don't have an argument against God's unmerited favor and I don't believe that following 613 laws will get you closer to god. What I have learned is that observing and studying Gen, Exod, Deut, Num and Lev does give you a greater understanding of YHWH plan of redemption and His brilliant inspiration.

Where does the law promise eternal life? Nowhere! The law only condemns. See Romans 7:15-25. I already stated Who changed the law. God said He will terminate the Sabbath Hosea 2 in the Tanach, Stone ed. The word cease is used in the KJV. This would be in agreement with Jeremiah 31:31-34.

 

[from scratch]

What do you believe is the law written on the heart in the new covenant?

My law which according to Jer 31:31-34 is different from the Torah and the ten commandments. I have discussed the Jeremiah passage at least twice in this thread. What do you not understand about what I have already said?

 

[from scratch]

If keeping God's commandments is so unrealistic then why did God give it in the first place?

Romans 11:32 - For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[from scratch]

But as usual people interject things into a biblical passage that is not there. You must consider the context of Hebrews 4 and understand it from its context. The rest Jesus was speaking in Matthew is not the same as Hebrews 4. People make the connection and ignore the context. The rest God swore they would not enter into the rest that those verses spoke about. Joshua 21:44 clearly says that it was that rest that he swore they would not enter into. This is not the only rest hebrews refers to however. Hebrews also refers to the Sabbath rest and in verse 9 the greek word used for rest is only used once in the entire NT and it literally means A Sabbath Rest. You might disagree with this, but considering the context I will also say there is a future rest we must enter into, in a future promised land. One where Jesus will defeat the enemies of death and the grave and we will get eternal rest. Just as those before didn't enter rest because of unbelief, so we too will not be able to enter into that future promised land if we do not believe.

What did I interject into Hebrews 4? First I did not reference it. You claimed that they entered into God's rest that He swore they would never enter into with OT Passages. You talked about rest from their enemies, not God's rest. Jesus offered God's rest for their souls in Mat 11:28-30. Evedently they did not have it in Jesus' day either.

What other law can God be referring to when he said, "My Law". What other law does God have that he has not revealed. The covenant made with the fathers is different than the new covenant. The chapters of hebrews 8 - 10 gives detail about the differences in the covenant. A covenant is an agreement. The people said, "All that you say we will do" but they broke their promise over and over again. The law by itself cannot be a covenant, but it can be apart of a covenant. My house is apart of the agreement but the house is not the agreement. When the covenant ends, my house does not disappear. In the new covenant it is different. Instead of the blood of bulls and goats we have the actual blood of Jesus. No shadow but reality. Instead of the earthly high priest Jesus is out high priest. No shadow but reality. The promises of the new covenant are better because it is centered around Jesus. And now he puts the law in our hearts on stony tables of flesh so we can keep it like how Jesus showed how the law is kept in the heart.

I can not identify with quotes from the OT an answer to your question and neither can you. NTL it has nothing to do with the Torah. Jer 31:31-34 states it will not be like the covenant established with their fathers. What covenant would that be? It has to be the one spoken of in Deut 4:13 unless you know of another covenant God made with Israel prior to Jeremiah.

What is strange to me and something I really want you to respond to, is why there is so much focus on the 10 commandments being the old covenant when 3 complete chapters in Hebrews speaking of the old covenant doesn't make any specific reference to the 10 commandments at all but focuses on the animal sacrifices and ordinances. Why do you have to different focus.

Again identify some other covenant made with their fathers. Heb 8:8-13. Since you can not what else could Hebrews be talking about?

That is not correct to say because you don't know me or anything about me. All you are doing however, is doubting the power of God. The question I would ask, is that if we could keep the law perfectly, what is the purpose of Christ dying on the cross. We are going to sin, and that is why he died. So because God's grace about do we willfully sin? God forbid! Do we trangress the law of God, which is sin.. God forbid!

So Jesus dying on the cross enables you to keep the law. No there is a changes in covenants and law, really in this case from the law (a system) to grace (a different system).

So you are saying that the commandments of God are different to the commandments of Jesus. Why would God and Jesus have a different set of commandments? Or then the question is, if Jesus gives different commandments, would they overwrite God's commandments. What does Jesus give to replace, "thou shalt not kill"? The only answer you can give is an expansion of the commandment and not a contradiction. Jesus kept his fathers commandments because he loved God. We will do the same. Love is the fulfilling of the law. If you love your neighbour you will fulfill the last 6 commandments. If you love God you will fulfill the first 4.

yes that is exactly what I am saying. John 15:10 makes this easy to see. Jesus oeverworte the commandments of the law by the authority placed in Him by the Father. We find in the Sermon on the Mount 5:21, 22 these words: Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Yes I understand what you are doing. So where does Jesus say keep the Sabbath?

I never said Jesus performed more than the law. What he did was exemplify what the law really means by the way he kept it. The written law does not talk about lust but Jesus said that if you lust you have committed adultery in your heart. The written law doesn't speak about hating your brother in your mind, but Jesus that indeed it is a violation of the command, "thou shalt not murder". When the holy spirit is in you and controls your life, the law in your heart becomes active and the written law is kept the way it aught to be.

In that you said Jesus kept the commandments and His Father's commandments you have said that Jesus kept more than the commandments. I contend that the commandments He kept were the ten commandments according to scripture. Jesus did not keep His commandments. In John 15:10 Jesus confesses to keepping His Father's commandments. Jesus kept the ten commandments, so they must have been His Father's commandments. Do you know of some other commandments Jesus kept? If He did not keep the ten commandments He would be a sinner just like us and would be disqualified from being the spotless, flawless Lamb required for sacrifice and His death on the cross would mean nothing.

There is no command to not take God's name in vain either, but Jesus endorses the command by stating that those who follow the commandments of men instead of the commandments of God worship him in vain. He also made mention of the pharisees who were taking God's name in vain while their hearts were far from him. Jesus endorsed the Sabbath when he kept it perfectly. When he said that it is not against the law to do good on the Sabbath. When he made it his custom to be in the synagogue on the Sabbath. His example is the endorsement. You do not have to recommend something that has not changed for it to keep existing. You cannot find the words, "thou shalt have no other God's before me" in the NT. All of God's commandments are endorsed in the New Testament. Jesus's life is the best endorsement.

So esentially you are claiming that if the law is done away with everything is legal. Not so fast there. Read Gal 5 the whole chapter. Paul says we are not at liberty to sin and shows what being led of the Spirit entails and what those who follow the flesh do. We are not anomos but under a different law found in Romans 8:1, 2 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Now we could get into the ministry of death which is the law. II Cor 3:7.

Like i said before, the new covenant has a better mediator, better promises and is full of the reality instead of the shadows. There is nothing to suggests that the law has to change if you look at the detailed description of the Old Covenant. The agreement in the NC is better than the old. God is making a new agreement with Israel, not like the agreement he made with them before. In this agreement he now writes the law on their hearts in additional to all the better changes made before. That is what you get from hebrews 8 - 10.

Then why do we things like Heb 7:12? The law is a single whole unit. See James 2:10 and Gal 3:10. If one part of the law changes the whole law changes otherwise you would only violate part of the law when you sin. That is not what James 2:10 states.



Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The focus on the books of Moses is really the children of Israel. Therefore there is no detail about the statutes, commandments and laws God gave to Abraham. Why should we assume it is anything different to what God gave to Israel. Did Abraham have to follow a different standard?



No one was given the written law. The reason God gave them the written law was because after 430 years of Egyptian slavery they lost sight of the true God and started adopting the Egyptian system of worship and beliefs. God has to re educate them. At the giving of the law he says to remember the Sabbath. How could he tell them to remember something they never knew before. Cain sinned did he not? He was punished for his sin. He was in violation of a law that he knew. He knew killing was wrong. The Sabbath was made at creation. The law was always there but not in written form. Abraham did keep God's commandments. The law points out what is right and wrong. It gives a knowledge of sin. A knowledge of sin does not prevent us from sinning. In the flesh it only makes us sin more. Only in Jesus can we do what is right and be obedient to him. So it is Jesus that is the cause of our righteousness both imparted and imputed, not the law. Without the law however, we would not know sin as Paul rightly said.

What law does love fulfill?[/quote]