Sabbath

[Laodicean]

Conveniently selective. No Scripture?

Galatians 5:18 (NKJV)
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The Sabbath COMMANDS are only in the Law of Moses.

Here's a link: Blue Letter Bible - Home Page

Do a search for some of the words found in the ten commandments.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The seventh day was called holy before Exodus 16.

Show us where God made a sabbath command to men before Exodus 16. You seem to be suggesting that the word "remember" must point back to creation while failing to notice that "remember" could point back to Exodus 16.

What Jesus did on the Sabbath was also allowed under the OT.

Check again. Gleaning food on the sabbath was not permitted by God-given laws given to the Israelites.

Declaring to be Lord means He had authority to put the Sabbath in its right perspective.

Yes, in subjection to the Himself. He had the authority to fulfill the law and that's what He said He came to do. I believe Him.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

It seems clear on here that people believe once we have faith in Jesus, we have no need to keep the law.

You may want to get to know folks around here a bit better before making such assumptions.

Has all been accomplished? If YES, then all jots and tittles have passed from the law. If NO, then all jots and tittles of the law remain. Why does SDAism pick and choose among the old covenant laws?

But Paul addresses this also in Romans. In 3:31 he says, "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." Paul tells us that faith does NOT abolish the law, it establishes it, or upholds it.

Can you share with us what is said in the preceding 30 verses of Romans 3?

I think it is interesting that 9 of the 10 are upheld.

I think it is interesting that SDAism claims to uphold just a handful of the 600+ old covenant laws.

I see no evidence that anyone keeps the law. It is the Spirit who convicts a man of sin and righteousness and judgment.

But if 9 of the commandments are clearly still to be upheld, WHY would ONE of them not be?

SDA eschatology is built on the assumption that non-SDA Christians believe that Sunday is the sabbath. And yet you seem to assert that non-SDA Christians do not believe there is a sabbath at all. Which is true?

Doesn't it make sense that God established these 10 for a reason?

Doesn't it make sense that God established all 600+ old covenant commands for a reason? After all, SDAism claims to observe many of them, including the food laws, the tithe laws and the ten commandments. Why does SDAism pick and choose?

To show that we love Him (The first four) and to show our love for others (The last 6).

This is a man-made summary. Do we not show love for Him when we show love for others? When discussing the law, SDAism offers countless categories and distinctions.

Also in Revelation 12:17 it says the dragon went to war with those "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Again in Revelation 14:12 it reads, "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

Ahh, the beloved proof texts. Those of us who spent decades in the SDA denomination know them well. Perhaps they hold more meaning than what we've been taught? Perhaps their context will shed some additional light on their meaning?

First of all, Jesus kept the Sabbath

Really? Are you sure? How do you know this to be true?

and actually never told people not to observe it

An argument from silence?

I feel it's kind of weak to only focus on one part of my post and then leave out the scripture that I provided.

You'll find that there isn't a lot of patience for Scripture warfare in this forum. Many of us have argued these points ad nauseum on both sides of the table. The passages you've cited are the same proof texts ripped from their context that are always cited when we begin yet another debate about the ongoing role of the law. What would be truly interesting is if we could actually tackle some passages that aren't in the SDA play book. Perhaps the book of Galatians or 2 Corinthians or the book of Hebrews. Now that would take us into some interesting territory . . . .

BFA

 

[Avonia]

Whoever hates or is indifferent to God will have chosen to not take the lifeline extended by God and will have chosen to remain on earth when it is cleansed by fire. That scenario is far different than saying that God burns people for not loving Him.

For me, that's just semantics. And doesn't address the issue of God being a poor disciplinarian.

That's like saying my child chose not to learn that she can be killed by playing on the train tracks, so the train eventually hit her.

 

[k4c]

Byfaithalone1;Show us where God made a sabbath command to men before Exodus 16. You seem to be suggesting that the word "remember" must point back to creation while failing to notice that "remember" could point back to Exodus 16.

Show me where He didn't.

Listen to what God says when they went out to pick up manna on the seventh day.

Exodus 16:28 And the Lord said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?

What commandments and Laws was God referring to?

The seventh day was holy, sanctified and blessed at creation. These words have powerfull meanings. When God says something is holy, it's holy.

Check again. Gleaning food on the sabbath was not permitted by God-given laws given to the Israelites.

Just picking up food for the sake of picking up food is different than if you need to pick up food because you're hungry.

Yes, in subjection to the Himself. He had the authority to fulfill the law and that's what He said He came to do. I believe Him.

BFA

Jesus taught me and you how to keep the Sabbath holy in light of these issues that arise on the Sabbath. He never once did away with the Sabbath, changed the Sabbath day or said the Sabbath is not longer a sacred day so you have two choices, keep the Sabbath holy as commanded by God and magnified by Jesus or not keep it holy and give an account to God.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Show me where He didn't.

You seem to be building a pretty tall tower on an argument from silence.

Listen to what God says when they went out to pick up manna on the seventh day.

Exodus 16:28 And the Lord said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?What commandments and Laws was God referring to?

"This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'"

The seventh day was holy, sanctified and blessed at creation.

For whom?

These words have powerfull meanings. When God says something is holy, it's holy.

For whom?

Just picking up food for the sake of picking up food is different than if you need to pick up food because you're hungry.

So it's OK to violate God-given laws if you're hungry?

Jesus taught me and you how to keep the Sabbath holy in light of these issues that arise on the Sabbath.

Tell me more. What was His teaching?

He never once did away with the Sabbath, changed the Sabbath day or said the Sabbath is not longer a sacred day so you have two choices, keep the Sabbath holy as commanded by God and magnified by Jesus or not keep it holy and give an account to God.

Why are you interested in my sabbath keeping? What's at stake?

BFA

 

[k4c]

Byfaithalone1;You seem to be building a pretty tall tower on an argument from silence.

Maybe, but if you can't prove He didn't then you are in same boat I'm in.

"This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'"

For whom?

For whom?

Jesus said it was made for man.

So it's OK to violate God-given laws if you're hungry?

Ask Jesus.

Tell me more. What was His teaching?

Jesus Sabbath

Why are you interested in my sabbath keeping? What's at stake?

BFA

You might want to ask God that question.

 

[Sophia7]

Show us where God made a sabbath command to men before Exodus 16. You seem to be suggesting that the word "remember" must point back to creation while failing to notice that "remember" could point back to Exodus 16.

Or "remember" could have simply pointed the Israelites to the Sabbath commandment itself from that point on.

 

[Duckybill]

examples?

You're not familiar with the COMMAND given by Moses?

 

[Duckybill]

Here's a link: Blue Letter Bible - Home Page

Do a search for some of the words found in the ten commandments.

Why don't you just post your Biblical evidence if you have any?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Maybe, but if you can't prove He didn't then you are in same boat I'm in.

What is the tall tower I've built? I've asserted that people should observe the sabbath if it holds meaning for them and I've cited Romans 14 as contributing to my conclusion on the matter. That's hardly a tall tower and it wasn't built from silence. In contrast, the SDA denomination has asserted that every man has been required to observe the sabbath since Day 7 of creation and that a day is coming when non-sabbatarians will fail to receive the seal of God and will instead receive the mark of the beast. Now, that is a tall tower built on an argument from silence!

Jesus said it was made for man.

Which man?

Ask Jesus.

I don't need to ask Jesus. Since He confirmed that He worked on the sabbath, I already understand His position.

Jesus Sabbath

A link is not a discussion. Please tell me what Jesus' teaching was regarding the sabbath. Then we can continue the discussion. Thanks.

You might want to ask God that question.

I asked you that question. If I'm at risk, then I would think that your godly love for me would compel you to warn me. Tell me, K4C, what's at stake here?

BFA

 

[VictorC]

Jesus taught me and you how to keep the Sabbath holy in light of these issues that arise on the Sabbath. He never once did away with the Sabbath, changed the Sabbath day or said the Sabbath is not longer a sacred day so you have two choices, keep the Sabbath holy as commanded by God and magnified by Jesus or not keep it holy and give an account to God.

Perhaps you should explain to the audience why you have never kept the sabbath holy according to the law. What eludes you is that as a component of the first covenant taken away by Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10:9) that mandates the burnt offerings God has no pleasure in, the sabbath kept the people; the people did not keep the sabbath.

And being kept by a component of the covenant from Mount Sinai invalidates any claim to eternal life: Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."
(Galatians 4:30)

 

[k4c]

Perhaps you should explain to the audience why you have never kept the sabbath holy according to the law. What eludes you is that as a component of the first covenant taken away by Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10:9) that mandates the burnt offerings God has no pleasure in, the sabbath kept the people; the people did not keep the sabbath.

And being kept by a component of the covenant from Mount Sinai invalidates any claim to eternal life: Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."
(Galatians 4:30)

Why do you continue to go back to the Old Covenant to draw principles of Sabbath keeping as it relates to animal sacrifices. I live by the words of Jesus for the New Covenant and He tells me that doing good on the Sabbath is okay. He does not say the Sabbath is done away with nor does He say the Sabbath was changed to another day. He also tells me that doing good on the Sabbath was also an Old Covenant principle as well. So yes, I have thrown out the bondwoman with it's strick demands and threats of death. I am now under grace but grace does not give me free passage to sin with no repentence.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.''

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

 

[VictorC]

Why do you continue to go back to the Old Covenant to draw principles of Sabbath keeping as it relates to animal sacrifices.

Because the sabbath is a component of the old covenant, and exists nowhere else. If you expect to keep the sabbath holy, your appeal is to compliance to the law wherein it is ordained. Without the burnt offerings and the priesthood authorized to make them, you have not complied with the law.

I live by the words of Jesus for the New Covenant and He tells me that doing good on the Sabbath is okay. He does not say the Sabbath is done away with nor does He say the Sabbath was changed to another day. He also tells me that doing good on the Sabbath was also an Old Covenant principle as well. So yes, I have thrown out the bondwoman with it's strick demands and threats of death. I am now under grace but grace does not give me free passage to sin with no repentence.

You have never quoted anything from Jesus during the tenure of the new covenant, and I doubt you know what event inaugurated the change from Moses to the new covenant mediated by Jesus.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.''

Include the previous verse in this quote, and you will see that we have been delivered from the law that is identified by the quote found only in Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21. The law we have been delivered from was the Ten Commandments.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

A failure to distinguish between sin and transgressions that impute sin against you does not help you make a coherent presentation.

 

[k4c]

VictorC;Because the sabbath is a component of the old covenant, and exists nowhere else. If you expect to keep the sabbath holy, your appeal is to compliance to the law wherein it is ordained. Without the burnt offerings and the priesthood authorized to make them, you have not complied with the law.

Jesus kept the Sabbath.

Paul kept the Sabbath.

Jesus' followers kept the Sabbath.

You have never quoted anything from Jesus during the tenure of the new covenant, and I doubt you know what event inaugurated the change from Moses to the new covenant mediated by Jesus.

That's not fair, you can lie because you are not under the Law.

Include the previous verse in this quote, and you will see that we have been delivered from the law that is identified by the quote found only in Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21. The law we have been delivered from was the Ten Commandments.

We have been delivered from the curse of the Law but not the Law itself. The curse of the Law is what the OC brings to people but when we're in Christ the curse is taken away, not the Law itself. It's still a sin to lie, steal, commit adultery, worship other gods, forget the Sabbath and so on.

A failure to distinguish between sin and transgressions that impute sin against you does not help you make a coherent presentation.

Understanding that the Law points out sin and brings the curse because of sin is very easy to understand. When you're in Christ you are not under the Law in that it has no power to condemn but that does not mean we are free to break the Law.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.''

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

 

[VictorC]

Jesus kept the Sabbath.

Paul kept the Sabbath.

Jesus' followers kept the Sabbath.

Without following the red herring you claim without support, please tell me why you don't keep the sabbath holy and are noncompliant with the law that ordained it.

That's not fair, you can lie because you are not under the Law.

Look again at the post you responded to - you don't know when the new covenant began, do you? Would you like some help?

We have been delivered from the curse of the Law but not the Law itself. The curse of the Law is what the OC brings to people but when we're in Christ the curse is taken away, not the Law itself. It's still a sin to lie, steal, commit adultery, worship other gods, forget the Sabbath and so on.

It's a sin to bear false witness as you just did.
It's also a sin to call God a liar. When Hebrews 10:9 states "He takes away the first that He may establish the second", the Person referred to here is Jesus Christ, who took away the law.

Understanding that the Law points out sin and brings the curse because of sin is very easy to understand. When you're in Christ you are not under the Law in that it has no power to condemn but that does not mean we are free to break the Law.

If you are not free to break the law, then you are under the law by your own admission. And as Romans 3:19 concludes, "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God".

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.''

We have been delivered from the Ten Commandments, as this verse proves in its context.

 

[k4c]

VictorC;Without following the red herring you claim without support, please tell me why you don't keep the sabbath holy and are noncompliant with the law that ordained it.

I do keep the Sabbath. For six days you shall labor but the seventh day is holy in it you shall not work. Simple...

Look again at the post you responded to - you don't know when the new covenant began, do you? Would you like some help?

It's a sin to bear false witness as you just did.
It's also a sin to call God a liar. When Hebrews 10:9 states "He takes away the first that He may establish the second", the Person referred to here is Jesus Christ, who took away the law.

If you are not free to break the law, then you are under the law by your own admission. And as Romans 3:19 concludes, "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God".

We have been delivered from the Ten Commandments, as this verse proves in its context.

We are not under the terms of the OC but we are surely under it's principles. Lying, stealing, worshiping other gods, murder, forgetting the Sabbath and so on are still sins.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.''

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

 

[VictorC]

I do keep the Sabbath. For six days you shall labor but the seventh day is holy in it you shall not work. Simple...

Did you miss what I posted?
Because the sabbath is a component of the old covenant, and exists nowhere else. If you expect to keep the sabbath holy, your appeal is to compliance to the law wherein it is ordained. Without the burnt offerings and the priesthood authorized to make them, you have not complied with the law.

Resting and attending a church service doesn't meet the requirements to keep the sabbath holy, and that is the requirement in Exodus 20:8.

We are not under the terms of the OC but we are surely under it's principles. Lying, stealing, worshiping other gods, murder, forgetting the Sabbath and so on are still sins.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.''

So your conclusion is that there is no sabbath anymore ("We are not under the terms of the OC"), but it is somehow a sin to violate an ordinance that doesn't exist?

Cute.

And, I notice that you keep quoting from Romans 7, which refutes your entire argument. We have been delivered from the Ten Commandments.

 

[k4c]

VictorC;Did you miss what I posted?
Because the sabbath is a component of the old covenant, and exists nowhere else. If you expect to keep the sabbath holy, your appeal is to compliance to the law wherein it is ordained. Without the burnt offerings and the priesthood authorized to make them, you have not complied with the law.

Resting and attending a church service doesn't meet the requirements to keep the sabbath holy, and that is the requirement in Exodus 20:8.

Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

So your conclusion is that there is no sabbath anymore ("We are not under the terms of the OC"), but it is somehow a sin to violate an ordinance that doesn't exist?

Cute.

And, I notice that you keep quoting from Romans 7, which refutes your entire argument. We have been delivered from the Ten Commandments.

I quoted dozens of verse over the past few weeks that I've been sharing with you.

Do you think you will ever answer my questions?

Do you think we should murder people?

How about worshiping other gods, is that good too?

Do you think stealing is a good thing to do?

Do you think everything that came through Moses is null and void?

What are your thoughts regarding divorce?

 

[Kira Light]

We've all seen this debate go round and round many a time

A weakness I see in k4c's arguments is this belief that everything not contained within the 10c was done away with. It all kinda comes down to that word "commandments". Was nothing else in the OT a commandment?

Also, k4c takes liberties even within the confines of the 10c. What is work? picking up sticks? golfing? Can you really pay anyone else to work on your behalf on Saturday? Can you eat out? Get gas? This stuff is an obvious violation of the 4th. Any SDA knows this. Most just grit their teeth and take comfort in their protected remnant status.