Sabbath should not be discussed in SDA specific forums

Hank77 · Dec 2, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
But you ask me, where?! Don’t you have eyes; your own? Or do you read with others’ eyes? Yes you are; then want me to read them too. Don’t worry, I did, many years ago already!

You are not understanding what I am asking you for or you cannot provide it because it just isn't there.
The scripture actually says, the 14th day of.....
Where is the scripture that actually says the 16th day of.....

Hank77 · Dec 2, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Is the Bible your Book?

If you don't want to answer that is your choice.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 2, 2016

Monk Brendan said:
They ain't riding a Jeep!

Matt 28:1 says (KJV) In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Luke 24:1 says (KJV) Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

John 20:1 says (KJV) The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Now, how did they get from the "Upper Room" to Calvary (Joseph of Arimathea had given a grave there to Jesus body) without walking or riding an animal?

They all agree that they came to the tomb. How did all of the people that came to the tomb get there?

And if it was on the Sabbath, as you seem to think, they had to walk more than 2,000 paces (about half a mile) to get there from the Upper Room. The Temple is farther, and Bethany is 6 miles away!

Shame

Hank77 · Dec 2, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Hank77, Today I thank you in the Name of Jesus Christ our Lord, for this your post, because God revealed this correlation between the Passover of Yahweh and the Gospel of Christ, now, for the first time in my life! "For it is the Power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth: to the Jew first, now also, to the Greek."

Halleluiah! For the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Come quickly, Lord Jesus. Amen.

The Truth is setting us free!

For whatever you have seen that is new to you about the Messiah and His message to us, I am grateful and happy for you.
God Bless you and your family.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 2, 2016

Hank77 said:
You are not understanding what I am asking you for or you cannot provide it because it just isn't there.
The scripture actually says, the 14th day of.....
Where is the scripture that actually says the 16th day of.....

And you do not understand what I am showing and proving to you WITH and FROM the Scriptures.

But you are right, I do not understand what you say, when you say, <<The scripture actually says, the 14th day of.....>>. The scripture actually says, the 14th day ABOUT WHAT and where?

Here you say the same thing that must have happened on the sixteenth or vice versa. Now the Scriptures say the Passover lamb was slaughtered on the fourteenth, yes, not on the sixteenth. So that is an agreement, no argument between the two of us?

And I say the first sheaf was waved on the sixteenth like the Scriptures both state and imply as good as stated.

Why then? Do you mean the sheaf was waved on the fourteenth and not on the sixteenth? There's simply no issue that anything whatsoever could have occurred on the fourteenth that occurred on sixteenth or vice versa ...

Take this advice, try to avoid the word, 'it'.

Sorry I don't know what you want me to say actually.

Hank77 · Dec 2, 2016

Please read again post #146. That post explains what I am talking about.

The Bible does not say anything about the 16th of the month. Most of the Jews believe that the waving of the omer was on the 16th because of the 'oral law', it is a tradition passed down and written in the Talmud.
I do not believe that God gave Moses laws that Moses did not write down, but only passed down orally. It is too easy for men to forget, change, misinterpret, etc.. God is very good at seeing that what He wants us to know and obey is documented.

I believe what the Karaite Jews believe and the Essenes also believed, that the omer was waved on the first morrow (day after) the 7th day Sabbath during the seven days of Unleavened Bread, the seven days following the day of the Passover.
This would mean the the waving of the omer would always be on the first day of the week. Counting the omer the 50 days means Pentecost always lands on the first day of the week. The offering that day is the First Fruits of the wheat harvest, the two loaves.

It was forbidden to eat the produce of the land until after the omer offering. Joshua must have had the priest wave the omer because the scripture says that they ate the produce (grain) of the land of Canaan that very same day and the manna stopped that day, so they wouldn't have had manna to eat beyond that day.
The Passover being the 14th, they ate on the very next day, the 15th, the first day of Unleavened Bread.
How could this be?
Only if the Passover, the 14th, fell on the 7th day Sabbath and the
morrow after the Sabbath fell on the 15th that year.

OT scripture never calls the first and last day of Unleavened Bread sabbaths. I only know of two days that are declared sabbaths, besides the 7th day Sabbath, Yom Teruah (Rosh Hashanah), and Yom Ha-Kippurim (day of atonement). see Lev. 23

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 3, 2016

Hank77 said:
If you don't want to answer that is your choice.

Is 2Chronicles 29:15-17 what you want me to mention, where the priests as type of the Messiah,

"came [as type of Jesus who "came to his own"],

according to the Commandment of the king [as type of God's Covenant of Grace],

by the words of the LORD [to them, as type of Jesus Christ the Word of God as one of us],

to cleanse [as type of Christ’s cleansing of sins],

the house of the LORD [as type of the People of God, the Church],

and the priests went into the inner part of the house of the LORD [as type of Jesus who went into the depths of suffering sin’s wages, death],

and brought out all the uncleanness that they found in the temple of the LORD [as type of Christ who took away our sins],

into the court of the house of the LORD [as type of Golgotha outside the city];

and the priests took the filthiness [as type of Christ who took our sins upon Him],

and carried it abroad [as type of Christ into a far country],

into the brook Kidron [as type of Jesus and the brook Kidron between Gethsemane and mount Olive]/

Now they began on the first day of the First Month to sanctify [as type of Christ John 11:54-57],

And on the eighth day of the month came they to the porch [as type of Christ John 12:12-19 Mark 11:1-11 Matthew 21:1-11 Luke 19:28-44 ],

So they sanctified the house of the LORD in eight days [as type of Christ John 12:20-19:42 Mark 11:12-15:47 Matthew 21:18-27:61 Luke 21:29-23:56a],

And in the sixteenth day of the First Month they made and end." [as type of Christ Matthew 27:62-28:4.]

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 3, 2016

Hank77 said:
It was forbidden to eat the produce of the land until after the omer offering.

That the people had entered Canaan and were on the land across the Jordan and stood between the sea and Jordan, that, as such, was, the waving in fulfilment of the prophetic meaning of the omer.

Jesus rising from the dead and "on the Sabbath of the LORD reviv(ing)" is, the First Sheaf Waved Before the LORD.
Christ taking up his Life from the dead again "on the Sabbath of the LORD is the LORD revived and rested". Exodus 31:17.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 3, 2016

The God given Imperative in the Passover of Yahweh can only be Christ Raised from the dead on the Sabbath. Israel invented their own alternative in the first sheaf waved on the day after “the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD”, despite “God concerning The Seventh Day thus spoke, And God the day The Seventh Day, from all his works, RESTED”; despite God spoke that “therefore, the Seventh Day is the Sabbath of the LORD GOD”; despite God spoke, that “a keeping of the Sabbath therefore remains for the People (the Church) of God … if Jesus had given them rest”.

The Sadducees and Essenes and Karaite Jews, with the Gentile Christians, all, surrendered God’s Genesis Blessing and Sanctification and Completion and Perfection and Rest which God invested in the Sabbath by virtue of and in view of Jesus Christ’s Resurrection on it, to the First Day of the week.

Now we at last know where Sunday worship originally started; not in the Roman Catholic church, but in Christianity in its rebellious Jewish factions who placed Jesus’ Resurrection on the day of the lord Sun even before the gentile Christian Justin Martyr made first mention of it in his political intercourse with the Roman emperor.

Hank77, I must give you credit for again having opened my eyes today to something I before should have suspected but couldn’t have guessed is so obvious.

Hank77 · Dec 3, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Now we at last know where Sunday worship originally started; not in the Roman Catholic church, but in Christianity in its rebellious Jewish factions who placed Jesus’ Resurrection on the day of the lord Sun even before the gentile Christian Justin Martyr made first mention of it in his political intercourse with the Roman emperor.

I have no idea what you are talking about. What rebellious Jewish factions placed Jesus' resurrection on the first day?

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 3, 2016

Hank77 said:
OT scripture never calls the first and last day of Unleavened Bread sabbaths. I only know of two days that are declared sabbaths, besides the 7th day Sabbath, Yom Teruah (Rosh Hashanah), and Yom Ha-Kippurim (day of atonement). see Lev. 23

The first day of ULB being the "in-between-day / Bone-Day" between 14 and 16 Abib and between sacrifice and first sheaf waved, it fits and fills text and context at every given point so perfectly, it can only be “the sabbath" of the passover, indeed written, "the sabbath" specific and exclusive of the passover "feast to its season". The passover “sabbath” cannot ever jump out of its floating ‘annual feast’ category into the category of the fixed and closed seven day cycle “the Sabbath of rest … the Sabbath of the LORD” Levitius 23:3. The “sabbath” written in the section Leviticus 23:4-37, is pure and total and exclusive, passover context. The “sabbath” written about in the section Leviticus 23:4-37, is the peculiar and particular “sabbath” of the passover, which was a “feast of the LORD”, “BESIDE” (excluding / in contrast with) “the Sabbath / Sabbaths OF THE LORD”. The “sabbath” written about in the section Leviticus 23:4-37, was a “feast” which “you”, the children of Israel had to “proclaim to its SEASON”.

It is therefore to be expected that “the sabbath” written in Leviticus 23:11,15,16 will be and must be and only can be, the passover-sabbath. If it were “the Seventh Day” the “Sabbath of the LORD” like in verses 3 and 38, it would have had to be written, ‘Sabbath of the LORD’ in Leviticus 23:11,15,16; plus, a totally different arrangement of and change in text and context, for sooth, in essence and substance, had to have stood written. But as it is, it is not.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 3, 2016

Hank77 said:
I have no idea what you are talking about. What rebellious Jewish factions placed Jesus' resurrection on the first day?

Who can tell; who would possibly know, but that they were Jews at the time and circumstance at least of those groups and individuals you have been referring to all along now, like the Essenes and Sadducees and (later) Karaites, who were "back-falling bond servant" Jews who, their "erstwhile weak and beggarly rudimentary no-gods divining, superstitiously worshiped days, months, seasons, years". Galatians 4!

For many years have I been saying it, except that I at first said it applied to Gentiles, and long after, that it applies to Gentile Christians like the feast-obsessed WC, COG and obscure crowds of others more. But now for the first time while in conversation with you, have I realised it started with rebellious first century Sunday obsessed Jewish Christians who began teaching that according to their 'oral tradition' or whatever, "the day after the sabbath" in Leviticus 23, was <<the day after the weekly Sabbat>> the day on which the first sheaf was supposed to be waved.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 3, 2016

Hank77 said:
The Passover being the 14th, they ate on the very next day, the 15th, the first day of Unleavened Bread.

How could this be?

Only if the Passover, the 14th, fell on the 7th day Sabbath and the

morrow after the Sabbath fell on the 15th that year.

I see no fact, no reason, no logic in <this>, <<only if the Passover, the 14th, fell on the 7th day Sabbath and the morrow after the Sabbath fell on the 15th that year>> could it be that <<The Passover being the 14th, they ate on the very next day, the 15th, the first day of Unleavened Bread.>>.

What you're saying, is, Only if one thing is red, another thing must be red also.

The Passover was 8 days,

Day one (Exodus 12:5 to 12:27),

1) "the head first day ye shall PUT AWAY leaven" during its night. Exodus 12:15b;

2) "that selfsame BONE DAY you shall reap the corners of the (winter harvest) field." Leviticus 23:22. Early Mk.15:21 Mt.27:32 Lk.23:26.

3) "the day they always had to kill the Passover (lamb) ... late, mid-afternoon." Exodus 12:6;

4) "when ye shall bring ... to be accepted for you ... a sheaf of the first fruits (of winter harvest) to the priest". Leviticus 23:10.

Day two, first day ulb eaten (Exodus 12:28 to 14:12),

1) "They shall eat the flesh with ulb in that night" Exodus 12:8; "On the fifteenth is the feast" Leviticus 23:5; "Ye shall eat ulb in this Bone Day” Exodus 12:17,18; “the selfsame Bone Night” Exodus 12:41,42 in Exodus the night after the fourteenth.

2) “That which remaineth of it the next day ye shall burn with fire.” Exodus 12:10;

3) “Seven days shall there be no leaven until the one and twentieth" that ulb shall be eaten. Leviticus 23:18.

Day three, second day ulb (Exodus 14:13-21),

1) “On the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave the sheaf before the LORD.” Leviticus 23:11 2Chronicles 29:18.

2) “From the day after the sabbath shall ye number fifty days.” Leviticus 23:15.

Hank77 · Dec 3, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Who can tell; who would possibly know, but that they were Jews at the time and circumstance at least of those groups and individuals you have been referring to all along now, like the Essenes and Sadducees and (later) Karaites, who were "back-falling bond servant" Jews who, their "erstwhile weak and beggarly rudimentary no-gods divining, superstitiously worshiped days, months, seasons, years". Galatians 4!

Yike! The Sadducees, the Essense, and Karaites have NEVER said that the Messiah was resurrected on the first day or any day. They did/do not believe that He was resurrected at all. The Karaite are Jews not Christians or Messianic Jews.

So you can agree with the rabbical orthodox Jews of today and their 'oral law'. That's fine, just realize that others have scriptural reasons to disagree with them.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 3, 2016

Hank77 said:
Yike! The Sadducees, the Essense, and Karaites have NEVER said that the Messiah was resurrected on the first day or any day. They did/do not believe that He was resurrected at all. The Karaite are Jews not Christians or Messianic Jews.

Yike! The Sadducees, the Essense [Sic.], and Karaites and their forerunners were the first to say, and always have said that the first sheaf was waved <<on the day after the Seventh Day Sabbath>>, on Sunday therefore, and thus began the false teaching that the Messiah was resurrected on the First Day of the week and not on any day or any day of the week.

Hank77 said:
So you can agree with the rabbical orthodox Jews of today and their 'oral law'.

Conspicuously you; but I conspicuously not!

Hank77 · Dec 3, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
For many years have I been saying it, except that I at first said it applied to Gentiles, and long after, that it applies to Gentile Christians like the feast-obsessed WC, COG and obscure crowds of others more. But now for the first time while in conversation with you, have I realised it started with rebellious first century Sunday obsessed Jewish Christians who began teaching that according to their 'oral tradition' or whatever, "the day after the sabbath" in Leviticus 23, was <<the day after the weekly Sabbat>> the day on which the first sheaf was supposed to be waved.

Once again the Saducees, the Essense, and the Karaite of today are not Christians or Messianic Jews (never were) and do not believe Jesus was the Messiah or that He was resurrected on the first day of the week. None of them were the Christian Judaizers of the NT.

The Karaite are Jews who do NOT believe in the 'oral law' written as explained in the Talmud, the rabbincal orthodox do. The Karaite DO believe in the Hebrew Bible that we call the OT.

The 'oral law' is where the ritual hand washings come from, the same hand washings mentioned in the NT.

Do you understand now? If so please stop making these false statements.

Hank77 · Dec 3, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Conspicuously you; but I conspicuously not!

You just said you agree with the rabbinic orthodox Jews, and therefore the 'oral law' because that is where the Jews themselves say that they got their interpretation of those scriptures from.
You agree with them that the 'omer' is waved on the 16th of Aviv.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 3, 2016

Hank77 said:
Once again the Saducees, the Essense, and the Karaite of today are not Christians or Messianic Jews (never were) and do not believe Jesus was the Messiah or that He was resurrected on the first day of the week. None of them were the Christian Judaizers of the NT.

True, I haven't said anything to the contrary. But I showed the principles (stoicheia) of this heresy germinated even before the Christian era began, specifically, according to the Karaites, with the Sadducees although they had absolutely no evidence. Despite, their heretical ideas are being propagated at present by Christians, based upon the very unsubstantiated claims made by fourth to sixth century Jews like the Karaites.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 3, 2016

Hank77 said:
The Karaite are Jews who do NOT believe in the 'oral law' written and explained in the Talmud, the rabbical orthodox do. The Karaite DO believe in the Hebrew Bible that we call the OT.

The Karaite are Jews who created their own written law allegedly based on some more reliable oral tradition. But their laws and traditions explained in the Talmud, certainly do not resemble the Hebrew Bible that we call the OT. Our diatribe here and now goes over one of the most infamous and most influential and most successful religious drogmas of theirs, fixing the according to its season ('floating') passover feast sabbath, fifteenth Abib, upon the weekly Sabbath, so that "the day after the sabbath" of their ideology, can always fall on Sunday --- a heresy that caught myriads of Christians for suckers.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 3, 2016

Hank77 said:
You agree with them that the 'omer' is waved on the 16th of Aviv.

I don't know what they teach regarding this. All I know besides what you have taught me today about their teaching, is I do not agree with them. I believe the Bible, the Torah if you will. And the Bible Old as well as New Testament teaches expressly and indirectly by implication that the First Sheaf of first fruits of winter harvest ('omer'), as type of Jesus Christ was waved on 16 Abib, a Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD in the year our Lord died and resurrected.

Sabbath should not be discussed in SDA specific forums

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