Sabbath School subject discussion thread

[foofighter]

the final word in my life is not a book that speaks about The Creator... it is the Creator himself.... my analogy is simple, do I depend on a book written about my wife written by someone who may or may not understand her, or do I depend on a relationship with my wife.... I take the relationship every time.... but that's just me...

How do you and God communicate? Through some of the Bible, none of it, other written material, does God speak to you audibly, or impressions in your mind? I'm very curious how this relationship communicates or develops. Our relationships with wives, etc. are based on a day to day actual communications, whether verbal, body language or perhaps a note or letter.

I'm seriously interested in how you would describe your relationship with God and how you communicate. You seem to have other than the normal ways of determining truth and knowing God...share with us. Some real "rubber-meets-the-road answers. Nothing to esoteric please! I'm anxious to learn as much as possible.

Carol

 

[Adventtruth]

your comments show how much you don't know about the bible, it is not unified, was not written by God, and is not consistent in a great number of things, check out the Documentary Hypothesis and how those who know and have studied biblical languages have analyzed the bible and their findings... I understand that you believe that the bible is "the word of God" and it works for you so I respect that, I just don't share your view....

Look Stormy....we can go back and forth with this mine is better than yours all day. I disagree with you on a number of points and I understand how some of the so called scholars have come to their conclussions, but to be frank, they have not faith in the written word of God or the God of the bible. You also believe in a god but not the God of the bible...your God is different from my God who is spoken of in the Bible. I was shocked to find this out about you, but it all fits now after years of reading your postings over a BSDA.com. As you may not know I'm frenchmon over there.

I did a search of the documentary but came up empty...perhaps you could give me more information to go on that I may get my hands on it.

AT

 

[Cribstyl]

Hello to friends and all.

I'm not sure if the changes to the forum has been all good.

I miss the old format.........
I'm not sure if I this thread is open to nonadventists or not?

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I am impressed with the sabbath school lesson 11 for this week. (Jun 7-13) and I was looking for a sabbath lessons discussion thread but I dont se it here

CRIB

 

[StormyOne]

Look Stormy....we can go back and forth with this mine is better than yours all day. I disagree with you on a number of points and I understand how some of the so called scholars have come to their conclussions, but to be frank, they have not faith in the written word of God or the God of the bible. You also believe in a god but not the God of the bible...your God is different from my God who is spoken of in the Bible. I was shocked to find this out about you, but it all fits now after years of reading your postings over a BSDA.com. As you may not know I'm frenchmon over there.

I did a search of the documentary but came up empty...perhaps you could give me more information to go on that I may get my hands on it.

AT

AT, you are happy with your beliefs and I have not asked you to adopt what I believe... if it is important to you, then you will search out the answers... you can start with how the bible was compiled, who made the decision, how did they decide what should be included and what should be excluded from the bible.... As for the "your God of the bible" I will simply say you have not investigated enough to know who that might be.... but that's just how I see it from where I sit... I believe that there is a Creator, and that he did create the heavens and earth..... after that most of what we read is commentary.....

 

[StormyOne]

How do you and God communicate? Through some of the Bible, none of it, other written material, does God speak to you audibly, or impressions in your mind? I'm very curious how this relationship communicates or develops. Our relationships with wives, etc. are based on a day to day actual communications, whether verbal, body language or perhaps a note or letter.

I'm seriously interested in how you would describe your relationship with God and how you communicate. You seem to have other than the normal ways of determining truth and knowing God...share with us. Some real "rubber-meets-the-road answers. Nothing to esoteric please! I'm anxious to learn as much as possible.

Carol

How does God speak to us is the issue, likewise how do we respond to his speaking.... For me the communication was established when I was 3 yrs old through an experience that would be scary for most kids that age... I learned to listen to those impressions at that age and continued to do so as I grew.... I believe God speaks to us through our prayers (i.e. conversations) with him, and I suppose one must believe that it is possible for that to occur.... is there a formula? I don't think so other than believe as He gives you evidence to believe.....

 

[Cribstyl]

How does God speak to us is the issue, likewise how do we respond to his speaking.... For me the communication was established when I was 3 yrs old through an experience that would be scary for most kids that age... I learned to listen to those impressions at that age and continued to do so as I grew.... I believe God speaks to us through our prayers (i.e. conversations) with him, and I suppose one must believe that it is possible for that to occur.... is there a formula? I don't think so other than believe as He gives you evidence to believe.....

What up Stormy (my friend)...

I have to side with AT about the bible being the bottom line.

You cant build a house without a standard to measure each board.
The bible with 66books are accepted as the inspired word of God.
It has been the standard of Protestant Christianity.

CRIB

 

[mva1985]

To get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I am impressed with the sabbath school lesson 11 for this week. (Jun 7-13) and I was looking for a sabbath lessons discussion thread but I dont se it here

CRIB

I am leading the discussion for this week as well as the one last week. So I am going to relate the two together. The lesson quotes where Paul says that if Christ be not raised we are the most miserable of people. Yet the previous lesson said that we were saved because Jesus paid our penalty. So if He paid our penalty then why would we need the resurrection? All the penalty and substitution stuff would still stand so that according to their theory God is satisfied and has inflicted the penalty to that He can forgive people and save them, why would it matter then that Christ was resurrected? There are certainly other religions which believe in life after death in various ways, they seem to do it without the need of an historical resurrection.

In the end Paul's position makes the Penal theory of the Atonement unworkable which probably means his language was never meant to be taken the way it was taken by those who created the Penal/substitutionary doctrine around 1200AD.

P.S. I did think the lesson did good on the resurrection but that is a pretty standard Christian perspective and not really questioned by most Christians. My purpose in Sabbath School classes is to get people to think about the reasons they believe what they say they believe. An fortunately most Christians have a good grasp of the resurrection which actually might explain why the lesson actually did a good job for a change.

 

[StormyOne]

What up Stormy (my friend)...

I have to side with AT about the bible being the bottom line.

You cant build a house without a standard to measure each board.
The bible with 66books are accepted as the inspired word of God.
It has been the standard of Protestant Christianity.

CRIB

hey Crib, ltns..... just because it has been accepted doesn't mean it is correct... at one time all bibles published contained the apocrypha which you don't find in today's bible.... all I am saying is that you cannot proclaim something as "the Inspired Word of God" without understanding how it came to be.... why were those sources used as opposed to others that were available? Who determined which were inspired and which were not?

 

[Cribstyl]

I am leading the discussion for this week as well as the one last week. So I am going to relate the two together. The lesson quotes where Paul says that if Christ be not raised we are the most miserable of people. Yet the previous lesson said that we were saved because Jesus paid our penalty. So if He paid our penalty then why would we need the resurrection? All the penalty and substitution stuff would still stand so that according to their theory God is satisfied and has inflicted the penalty to that He can forgive people and save them, why would it matter then that Christ was resurrected? There are certainly other religions which believe in life after death in various ways, they seem to do it without the need of an historical resurrection.

In the end Paul's position makes the Penal theory of the Atonement unworkable which probably means his language was never meant to be taken the way it was taken by those who created the Penal/substitutionary doctrine around 1200AD.

P.S. I did think the lesson did good on the resurrection but that is a pretty standard Christian perspective and not really questioned by most Christians. My purpose in Sabbath School classes is to get people to think about the reasons they believe what they say they believe. An fortunately most Christians have a good grasp of the resurrection which actually might explain why the lesson actually did a good job for a change.

Thanks RC............. I'm impressed that the lesson expresses events that are "pivotal" and "central" doctrines of the Christain church without discussing sabbathkeeping or the 10commandments.

I see commentary in Fridays lesson that reiterate the SDA "sleeping dead" doctrine without proving it with specific text. Here's are the quotes;

Take another look at 1 Corinthians 15, the flagship theological defense of the Resurrection in the New Testament.


Follow Paul's arguments in favor of this basic Christian teaching.
Why do these texts make little sense if you believe that the righteous dead go immediately to heaven at death?

How is our understanding of the state of the dead vindicated by these texts?

What makes the promise of the Resurrection so crucial to us as Seventh-day Adventists with our view of the state of the dead

True, 1Cor 15 has some concrete lessons on the resurrection in the NT.
True, 1Cor 15 has some basic Christian teaching on the resurrection
False, 1Cor 15 does make sense to those who believe that the righteous dead go immediately to heaven.

Fridays lesson also quotes also quotes "Desire of Ages"

p. 786 "But those who came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan; I have redeemed them. I have brought them from the grave as the first fruits of My power, to be with Me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow...."

My question to SDA in this forum is "where are the dead in the Lord??"

 

[Cribstyl]

hey Crib, ltns..... just because it has been accepted doesn't mean it is correct... at one time all bibles published contained the apocrypha which you don't find in today's bible.... all I am saying is that you cannot proclaim something as "the Inspired Word of God" without understanding how it came to be.... why were those sources used as opposed to others that were available? Who determined which were inspired and which were not?

A fact to examine is this "....Sola scriptura was a foundational doctrinal principle of the Protestant Reformation held by the reformer Martin Luther and is a formal principle of Protestants today......".

 

[StormyOne]

A fact to examine is this "....Sola scriptura was a foundational doctrinal principle of the Protestant Reformation held by the reformer Martin Luther and is a formal principle of Protestants today......".

the bible that Luther used is NOT the bible you use today.... why?

 

[Cribstyl]

the bible that Luther used is NOT the bible you use today.... why?

(Sigh) A candle or a flashlight gives light, make a choice rather that sit in the dark.


Stormy, find a version you trust.....Latin Vulgate, Greek NT, Luther bible (German), KJV. Spanish Verson. They say primarily the same thing in the readers language.


It's your burden to prove errors in the word of God.
I trust what has been passed down by the Holy Spirit, or Jesus, Peter and Paul lied about who would teach everybody about Jesus.

Why is Christianity the most widespread religion in the world? Why are bibles written in over 250 languages today with little disputes about errors among the approved and authorized versions?

 

[StormyOne]

(Sigh) A candle or a flashlight gives light, make a choice rather that sit in the dark.


Stormy, find a version you trust.....Latin Vulgate, Greek NT, Luther bible (German), KJV. Spanish Verson. They say primarily the same thing in the readers language.


It's your burden to prove errors in the word of God.
I trust what has been passed down by the Holy Spirit, or Jesus, Peter and Paul lied about who would teach everybody about Jesus.

Why is Christianity the most widespread religion in the world? Why are bibles written in over 250 languages today with little disputes about errors among the approved and authorized versions?

it is not burden I have... we are discussing christianity and various views.... I just happened to share mine... the reality is that there are errors but that does not negate what the bible should be used for IMO.... the bible has enough information so that a person can be introduced to God and believe that He wants a relationship with us....

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I usually get worried when people start posting tons of texts....

The more you post the more your doctrinal position is correct?

Thats funny...I get worried when people exclude them. Mere speculations is what drives many seeing that they can't stand the Written word of God that goes against what they want to believe. Its where their own reasonings get exposed. No sure foundation in the word only proves that one is sure in his or her self. No absolute truth

I tend to agree with AT. I'll have more respect for a person's doctrinal beliefs if based directly from the Bible than on their own reasoning.

Kind of in between the spectral poles here on this one. On the one hand it thinks doctrines purporting to be Christian shold indeed be soundly based in the Word. On the other hand, posting walls of text does not necessarily constitute that nor does it indicate an accurate ascertaining of the meaning of either those specific texts or the whole of Scripture. (By the way, this bes not a judgment on the specific post in question so please don't take it as one; Moriah has not read the post itself yet so has no opinion either way.)

On the one hand, sound doctrine comes from the Word, no doubt about it; on the other hand, that Word needs to be parsed in and through the same Spirit that inspired it. Just like only Moriah can state definitively and authoritatively what Moriah meant by something MORIAH said, how much more true bes this when talksy about them omniscient and perfect God communicating with and revealing Himself to imperfect, biased, distorted vessels like human beings.

Not to mention, trying to tackle everything in one post can dip into overload. Many ppls have difficulty focusing on lengthy posts and can only read short bits at a time on the internet. Breaking down a matter into two or three posts can be invaluable for helping others want to give time and attention to reading and understanding one's thoughts on a subject. (Spoken as one what fully realizes its own capacity to ramble and make walls of text also.)

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

How does God speak to us is the issue, likewise how do we respond to his speaking.... For me the communication was established when I was 3 yrs old through an experience that would be scary for most kids that age... I learned to listen to those impressions at that age and continued to do so as I grew.... I believe God speaks to us through our prayers (i.e. conversations) with him, and I suppose one must believe that it is possible for that to occur.... is there a formula? I don't think so other than believe as He gives you evidence to believe.....

There bes many formulae. God has amazing formulae for all kinds of things and if you watch and listen, and desire to do His will, He will reveal them. He showed Moriah a formula for avoiding blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. He showed it 3 or 4 other formulae as well, within the past couple of days. Also He chastens those He loves so if you have never had the privilege of being struck down and humbled by Him, seek it, it bes amazing beyond comparison and will put you beside yourself with desire for Him.

 

[Adventtruth]

it is not burden I have... we are discussing christianity and various views.... I just happened to share mine... the reality is that there are errors but that does not negate what the bible should be used for IMO.... the bible has enough information so that a person can be introduced to God and believe that He wants a relationship with us....

Luther used and had more than a few bibles of his time and earlier... and many of them contained great errors. He had the midiaeval German bible, he had the Latin Vulgate as well as other earlier works. But Luther being the great schalor that he was, translated His German Bible directly from the Hebrew and Greek. So I don't see your point other than some of the earlier works, just as Catholics bibles today contained other books not found in protestant bibles.

My point in this thread is that unless one knows and understand the will of God we find in scripture, its likely that evil forces will manipulate and have greater influence over his subject. If we make the bible our source of truth, then its harder to be fooled by Satans devices, thus seeing Gods will for us and humanity.

If I have a radio with no station dial numbers, and turn the dial and find a station playing the music I like, thinking its my favorite station, but then a commercial comes and they call out the radio stations radio dial number, and its not my favorite station, then I was fooled thinking it was my station. That is sorta what the bible does for us. We know Gods character and will becasue we see it in the bible. If I discard the bible as myth and discard whats contained in it for my own speculations and conjecture, then how am I sure its Gods will?


Many missionaries have gone to distant lands to supply the will of God through the giving of bibles. And yes there are those who have not been reached. Is this the will of God that they are not reached? And if they should die before they are reached, will they be eternally destroyed? These are questions that must be answered with the bible and not our reasoning because we think its right or wrong.

AT

 

[Cribstyl]

it is not burden I have... we are discussing christianity and various views.... I just happened to share mine... the reality is that there are errors but that does not negate what the bible should be used for IMO.... the bible has enough information so that a person can be introduced to God and believe that He wants a relationship with us....

Well, it's my view that the bible is written as everything a man needs to have a life of Godliness through knowing God, rather than enough information for an introduction.
Did Peter err when he said?
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
,2Pe 3:7
Did Jesus err when He said?
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Did Paul err when he said?
Rom 1:16¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Christianity is based on faith in the knowlege of "the word of God," which was first spoken through the prophets, angels, Jesus Christ and the apostles by "devine power" (The Holy Spirit)

HEB 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Christianity is based on belief in everything God has spoken in His word. You appear as saying, the word has errors and is for limmited use.
The errors found does not change what is known as the Christian Gospel.

 

[Adventtruth]

Well, it's my view that the bible is written as everything a man needs to have a life of Godliness through knowing God, rather than enough information for an introduction.
Did Peter err when he said?
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
,2Pe 3:7
Did Jesus err when He said?
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Did Paul err when he said?
Rom 1:16¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Christianity is based on faith in the knowlege of "the word of God," which was first spoken through the prophets, angels, Jesus Christ and the apostles by "devine power" (The Holy Spirit)

HEB 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Christianity is based on belief in everything God has spoken in His word. You appear as saying, the word has errors and is for limmited use.
The errors found does not change what is known as the Christian Gospel.

Agreed!

AT

 

[StormyOne]

Well, it's my view that the bible is written as everything a man needs to have a life of Godliness through knowing God, rather than enough information for an introduction.
Did Peter err when he said?
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
,2Pe 3:7
Did Jesus err when He said?
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Did Paul err when he said?
Rom 1:16¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Christianity is based on faith in the knowlege of "the word of God," which was first spoken through the prophets, angels, Jesus Christ and the apostles by "devine power" (The Holy Spirit)

HEB 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Christianity is based on belief in everything God has spoken in His word. You appear as saying, the word has errors and is for limmited use.
The errors found does not change what is known as the Christian Gospel.

and you know for a fact that Peter said what you quoted? Jesus too? Paul for that matter? There is some question about the authorship of Hebrews because it doesn't "sound" like Paul's other writings.... my point remains, how can you say something is "the word of God" when God did not write it? Likewise if humans determined what would and would not be contained in the bible you read, who gave them permission to edit "God's word?"

Just questions that I have... as AT suggested we could go back and forth on this issue, but I won't belabor the point.... you are satisfied with your beliefs, and that's all that matters...

Thank you for taking time to dialog....