Sabbath School subject discussion thread

[RC_NewProtestants]

Thats love that any one can understand, and not a scare trick!

Now you can sugar coat it by saying thats what the people thought in those days...appeasment or what ever, but the bible teaches a substitutional death for mankind. This may not fit your idea of your God, but its What my God did for us. The idea of punishment is related to the punished doing the crime. Christ did no crime....so He SUFFERED for the crimes of others while doing no crime. His suffering for others satisified Gods justice and wrath for a broken law. The MIT is only a part and not the most important part of the Gospel...there is a legal ahead of the moral.

AT

Not a scare tactic huh, God's wrath because you were born into a sin filled world and thus you broke God's law and someone has to be punished. Strange that the Substitutionary view of the atonement really only took off after the Satisfaction theory of the 1100's A.D. But go ahead and tell your self it is plainly there in your Bible because you have chosen to make that your kind of God. Jesus said He came to serve yet you put that as the secondary reason. Though maybe I misunderstand you, as you say:

He suffered because of Gods Love....first for His own Glory and for mankind second.

Then you say He suffered God's wrath. It is ok I am used to the Penal theory not making sense. I also reject the idea that anyone really does anything for glory that would rightly be called glory. Glory comes from the acknowledgement that something done was magnificant, not that something was done to show that person's glory. But that is another topic.

 

[StormyOne]

when one refuses to ask "why" a certain belief has come to be accepted among the various beliefs that existed at one time, then it is certain that tradition is will replace what is found in the bible....

 

[Adventtruth]

Not a scare tactic huh, God's wrath because you were born into a sin filled world and thus you broke God's law and someone has to be punished.

Not playing the scare card, can't speak for others...only spreading the truth of His righteousness against sin. But it is people like you who would rather tell others that this truth is a scare tactic. Some one said, Because God is Just, Christ came to suffer and die. Becasue God is loving, He was willing to suffer and die.

(Rom 3:10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(Rom 3:11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(Rom 3:12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(Rom 3:13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
(Rom 3:14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
(Rom 3:15) Their feet are swift to shed blood:
(Rom 3:16) Destruction and misery are in their ways:
(Rom 3:17) And the way of peace have they not known:
(Rom 3:18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.
(Rom 3:19) Now we know that what things Is the above passage a scare tactic as well ? soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
(Rom 3:20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Is the above passage a scare tactic as well ?

Strange that the Substitutionary view of the atonement really only took off after the Satisfaction theory of the 1100's A.D. But go ahead and tell your self it is plainly there in your Bible because you have chosen to make that your kind of God.

Its there in the bible....and more than one place. But you will not eccept the plain reading of the scriptures, but you would rather reason it away. Heres one such passage....would you like to enter into your spin zone on this one?

(1Th 5:9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(1Th 5:10) Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Jesus said He came to serve yet you put that as the secondary reason. Though maybe I misunderstand you, as you say:

You think Christ came to serve man first...you make this about you and not God. Christ came to glorifiy God first.

(Joh 17:4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
(Joh 17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(Joh 17:6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
(Joh 17:7) Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
(Joh 17:8) For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Then you say He suffered God's wrath. It is ok I am used to the Penal theory not making sense.

Well as always your argument is with hte bible. THe following text show that Christ suffered.

(Gal 3:13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

That should have been you and I...but it ws Christ, Gods glory on display. Heres more of the glory of God unto us through His sufferings.

(1Pe 2:21) For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
(1Pe 2:22) Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
(1Pe 2:23) Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
(1Pe 2:24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Heres Christ suffering Gods wrath against sin as our substitute. What your spin on it...I'd like to see it.

(Isa 53:1) Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
(Isa 53:2) For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
(Isa 53:3) He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
(Isa 53:4) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
(Isa 53:5) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
(Isa 53:6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
(Isa 53:7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
(Isa 53:8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
(Isa 53:9) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
(Isa 53:10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
(Isa 53:11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
(Isa 53:12) Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I also reject the idea that anyone really does anything for glory that would rightly be called glory.

And Yet the Son did it all for Gods glory first! Why???Because its about God and not you.

(Joh 17:4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Glory comes from the acknowledgement that something done was magnificant, not that something was done to show that person's glory. But that is another topic.

As I have said before...your argument is with the bible and not me.

(Isa 43:7) everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made."

God created us to display His glory.


AT

 

[StormyOne]

I usually get worried when people start posting tons of texts....

 

[moicherie]

I usually get worried when people start posting tons of texts....

The more you post the more your doctrinal position is correct?

 

[Adventtruth]

I usually get worried when people start posting tons of texts....

Thats funny...I get worried when people exclude them. Mere speculations is what drives many seeing that they can't stand the Written word of God that goes against what they want to believe. Its where their own reasonings get exposed. No sure foundation in the word only proves that one is sure in his or her self. No absolute truth

AT

 

[AndrewK788]

I tend to agree with AT. I'll have more respect for a person's doctrinal beliefs if based directly from the Bible than on their own reasoning.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Not playing the scare card, can't speak for others...only spreading the truth of His righteousness against sin. But it is people like you who would rather tell others that this truth is a scare tactic. Some one said, Because God is Just, Christ came to suffer and die. Becasue God is loving, He was willing to suffer and die.

I have no problem with the statement that because God is Just Jesus came to suffer and die. Because as a Just God He reaches out to being us back, reconciliation. But that is not what penal atonement says. It says that God poured out His wrath on Christ who was innocent, who somehow had all sins of all times transferred to Christ so that He could be punished for sin, not His sin of course so that He can substitute His death for crimes He did not commit for our crimes that we did commit. Is there any place that either in the Old or New Testament that it says it is OK to punish the innocent, quite the contrary God says not to do that. But to please an Angry God we say that God does what He tells humans not to do.

And the goal of all this, To show that God can forgive though He has already said He can forgive and He instructs others to freely forgive.

Don't tell me my view is not Biblical because it is, It did not take 1100 years to develop either. It was taught from the beginning of Christianity. But then it is no wonder when people stop thinking and questioning why they believe what they believe and simply cling to traditions. Your tradition does not equal truth.

 

[StormyOne]

Thats funny...I get worried when people exclude them. Mere speculations is what drives many seeing that they can't stand the Written word of God that goes against what they want to believe. Its where their own reasonings get exposed. No sure foundation in the word only proves that one is sure in his or her self. No absolute truth

AT

there is the problem.... God didn't write it... and so you assume because someone wrote it centuries ago and said that they were inspired that they must be correct.... I don't share that belief... while you have based your position on words you believe are of God you have no proof that they were, especially since God did not dictate the bible and then hand it to humans.... you have made quite a few assumptions about a document that God did not write....

 

[StormyOne]

I tend to agree with AT. I'll have more respect for a person's doctrinal beliefs if based directly from the Bible than on their own reasoning.

you and I differ... I respect a person who shares their beliefs regardless of how they arrived at those beliefs... they may use biblical support, they may not, no biggie, as long as it works for them... just don't tell me that it must come from the bible or its not valid.....

 

[AndrewK788]

you and I differ... I respect a person who shares their beliefs regardless of how they arrived at those beliefs... they may use biblical support, they may not, no biggie, as long as it works for them... just don't tell me that it must come from the bible or its not valid.....

I'm not saying it's invalid if not from the Bible. However, when theological issues are being discussed and the Bible is treated as irrelevant, that is where I disagree.

 

[StormyOne]

I'm not saying it's invalid if not from the Bible. However, when theological issues are being discussed and the Bible is treated as irrelevant, that is where I disagree.

fair enough..... the bible doesn't need to be irrelevant, but neither does it need to be the final word... though for some it is.... that's my point....

 

[Adventtruth]

there is the problem.... God didn't write it... and so you assume because someone wrote it centuries ago and said that they were inspired that they must be correct.... I don't share that belief...

Thats correct...God did not write it. Its a shame you don't believe Peter when He wrote

(1Pe 1:24) For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
(1Pe 1:25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

or this:

(2Pe 1:20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(2Pe 1:21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Or Timothy writting this:

(2Ti 3:16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(2Ti 3:17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

while you have based your position on words you believe are of God you have no proof that they were, especially since God did not dictate the bible and then hand it to humans.... you have made quite a few assumptions about a document that God did not write....

Well there is where you are wrong...My proof is the bible it self....and you know what....I would rather believe all the 2000 + clauses I find in the bible that say God spoke to Moses, or that the word of the Lord came unto Jonah and so on, than believe you or any body who base insights on there own conjecture or revelation. They might as well be a seer them selves. What I find in the bible is unity....In most cases those who reject the bible as Gods reveiled word to mankind, have their own agenda that the bible exposes as false. Yes the bible was written over a time period of 1500 years by about 40 or so differnt authors, and the unity that the bible displays is outstanding. But those who are like you would rather pick and choose what is biblical truth or not.

I like what Christ said here...do you believe him?

(Joh 5:38) And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
(Joh 5:39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
(Joh 5:40) And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


AT

 

[Adventtruth]

fair enough..... the bible doesn't need to be irrelevant, but neither does it need to be the final word... though for some it is.... that's my point....

Well for me its the final word...

AT

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I'm not saying it's invalid if not from the Bible. However, when theological issues are being discussed and the Bible is treated as irrelevant, that is where I disagree.

Has that been happening here? I have not seen it happening though I have seen some of a particular point of view accuse others because they don't hold to a particular presupposition about a text. It is not difficult to show the problems with the Penal atonement view both Biblically and through logic see the article What is wrong with the Substitutionary theory of the Atonement?

 

[StormyOne]

Well for me its the final word...

AT

interesting indeed....

 

[Adventtruth]

interesting indeed....

Stormy... How do you come about the final word in your life and how do you know its the final word? Or do you even have a final word?

AT

 

[StormyOne]

Thats correct...God did not write it. Its a shame you don't believe Peter when He wrote

(1Pe 1:24) For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
(1Pe 1:25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

or this:

(2Pe 1:20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(2Pe 1:21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Or Timothy writting this:

(2Ti 3:16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(2Ti 3:17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.




Well there is where you are wrong...My proof is the bible it self....and you know what....I would rather believe all the 2000 + clauses I find in the bible that say God spoke to Moses, or that the word of the Lord came unto Jonah and so on, than believe you or any body who base insights on there own conjecture or revelation. They might as well be a seer them selves. What I find in the bible is unity....In most cases those who reject the bible as Gods reveiled word to mankind, have their own agenda that the bible exposes as false. Yes the bible was written over a time period of 1500 years by about 40 or so differnt authors, and the unity that the bible displays is outstanding. But those who are like you would rather pick and choose what is biblical truth or not.

I like what Christ said here...do you believe him?

(Joh 5:38) And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
(Joh 5:39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
(Joh 5:40) And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


AT

your comments show how much you don't know about the bible, it is not unified, was not written by God, and is not consistent in a great number of things, check out the Documentary Hypothesis and how those who know and have studied biblical languages have analyzed the bible and their findings... I understand that you believe that the bible is "the word of God" and it works for you so I respect that, I just don't share your view....

 

[StormyOne]

Stormy... How do you come about the final word in your life and how do you know its the final word? Or do you even have a final word?

AT

the final word in my life is not a book that speaks about The Creator... it is the Creator himself.... my analogy is simple, do I depend on a book written about my wife written by someone who may or may not understand her, or do I depend on a relationship with my wife.... I take the relationship every time.... but that's just me...

 

[AndrewK788]

Has that been happening here? I have not seen it happening though I have seen some of a particular point of view accuse others because they don't hold to a particular presupposition about a text. It is not difficult to show the problems with the Penal atonement view both Biblically and through logic see the article What is wrong with the Substitutionary theory of the Atonement?

I didn't say whether it was happening or not, and honestly I don't know because I haven't been around CF much recently. But my point still stands.