Sabbath question from seeker

[Byfaithalone1]

Do you get mad when you have to work on Thanksgiving Why is that? It's Because you will miss out on the fellowship, food and fun on those special days.

If you enjoy the traditions of fellowship, food and fun in your community of faith, then I would hope that no one is trying to rob them from you. I certainly would not wish to do so.

The difference is this -- no one in my community of faith has ever asserted that Thanksgiving is the great dividing wall between those who are "safe to save" and those who aren't. No one in my community of faith has ever asserted that there will come a day when those who carve a turkey during the 3rd week in November will receive the seal of God and those who don't will receive the mark of the beast.

God protected the Sabbath day by Law for this very reason.

He did so within the ministry of letters engraved on stones that brings death. This ministry pales comparison with the ministry of the Spirit that brings life.

If your unblieving boss forces you to work on the Sabbath day he is breaking God's Law

Only if he and I are Jews living 430+ years after Abraham and before the Seed came.

BFA

 

[k4c]

I don't think so. It seems like a fair question to me.

Catholic documents are being cited as a source of truth and yet those who cite them do not view Catholics as being a source of truth. Seems to be a serious disconnect to me.

BFA

Well there you have it...

The leading the ...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Catholic documents are being cited as a source of truth and yet those who cite them do not view Catholics as being a source of truth. Seems to be a serious disconnect to me.

BFA

Big difference between historical verity and doctrinal....

 

[ricker]

Big difference between historical verity and doctrinal....

Do you believe what the Catholics say about the Crusades and the Inquisition, which of course is history?

 

[k4c]

If you enjoy the traditions of fellowship, food and fun in your community of faith, then I would hope that no one is trying to rob them from you. I certainly would not wish to do so.

The difference is this -- no one in my community of faith has ever asserted that Thanksgiving is the great dividing wall between those who are "safe to save" and those who aren't. No one in my community of faith has ever asserted that there will come a day when those who carve a turkey during the 3rd week in November will receive the seal of God and those who don't will receive the mark of the beast.

He did so within the ministry of letters engraved on stones that brings death. This ministry pales comparison with the ministry of the Spirit that brings life.

Only if he and I are Jews living 430+ years after Abraham and before the Seed came.

BFA

The ministry of the law written on my heart is much greater than the law written in stone. The reason for this is because the law written on the heart is motivated by love whereas the law written in stone is motivated by fear. If you're still resisting the law then you're still under the Old Covenant because when the law is written on the heart it's not a burden. Let's agree to disagree. I agree with God and you don't.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Do you believe what the Catholics say about the Crusades and the Inquisition, which of course is history?

In matters where optics was the key motivator for statements of events then of course there is never revealed the whole truth.... eg: the victors of war generally write the history books.
Do you believe the US was innocent in the bombing of Pearl Harbour? Of course, now we have, through unsealed records a better understanding of what went on and can see the atrocities of both sides more clearly. Just as John Paul II went on record apologizing for the victims of the dark ages by the church. The truth does come out...

The changing of the Sabbath to Sunday is documented in the Councils and Edicts of the church and are their laws of governance. They are also corroborated by independent historical record. The church, in the admission of changing the day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday, have nothing to hide... they are proud of the fact that they see themselves as divively granted to do such things... which of course agrees completely with Daniel that the little horn would think to change times and laws.

 

[ricker]

In matters where optics was the key motivator for statements of events then of course there is never revealed the whole truth.... eg: the victors of war generally write the history books.
Do you believe the US was innocent in the bombing of Pearl Harbour? Of course, now we have, through unsealed records a better understanding of what went on and can see the atrocities of both sides more clearly. Just as John Paul II went on record apologizing for the victims of the dark ages by the church. The truth does come out...

The changing of the Sabbath to Sunday is documented in the Councils and Edicts of the church and are their laws of governance. They are also corroborated by independent historical record. The church, in the admission of changing the day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday, have nothing to hide... they are proud of the fact that they see themselves as divively granted to do such things... which of course agrees completely with Daniel that the little horn would think to change times and laws.

In a way you are right. If a person believes that the commandment to observe the Sabbath has now been transferred to Sunday, that would probably be a tradition at least sanctioned by the RC church.

Trouble is many,many denominations do not believe that. Here is a quote from the Augsberg Confession of 1530, probably the seminal document of the reformation.

Of this kind is the observance of the Lord's Day, Easter, Pentecost, and like holy-days and rites. For those who judge that by the authority of the Church the observance of the Lord's Day instead of the Sabbath-day was ordained as a thing necessary, do greatly err. Scripture has abrogated the Sabbath-day; for it teaches that, since the Gospel has been revealed, all the ceremonies of Moses can be omitted. And yet, because it was necessary to appoint a certain day, that the people might know when they ought to come together, it appears that the Church designated the Lord's Day for this purpose; and this day seems to have been chosen all the more for this additional reason, that men might have an example of Christian liberty, and might know that the keeping neither of the Sabbath nor of any other day is necessary.
(Emphasis added)

You see, those who worship on Sunday don't necessarily think the Day was changed at all, as you say the Catholics instigated. I've talked to at least three local pastors, including a Baptist, about this and they all agree that Sunday is not now the Sabbath.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

We are not saying that Sunday keepers view it as a new Sabbath... we are saying that there was never any 'thus saith the Lord' to not continue to keep the Sabbath as was given in the Commandments. It wouldn't matter what day or in what manner the other six days are kept holy, it was the seventh that God hallowed and sanctified.

I always find it interesting that the 4th Commandment is always segregated from the other nine and then labeled as a ceremony from Moses. Then it is easy to lump it with the ceremonial laws and say it is no longer binding. The contortion to reach that conclusion is quite apparent, at least to me...

The Decalogue is the totality of its ten parts that shows the character of God through love. Without the fourth, the giver and receiver of that love cannot be identified.

 

[ricker]

We are not saying that Sunday keepers view it as a new Sabbath... we are saying that there was never any 'thus saith the Lord' to not continue to keep the Sabbath as was given in the Commandments. It wouldn't matter what day or in what manner the other six days are kept holy, it was the seventh that God hallowed and sanctified.

I always find it interesting that the 4th Commandment is always segregated from the other nine and then labeled as a ceremony from Moses. Then it is easy to lump it with the ceremonial laws and say it is no longer binding. The contortion to reach that conclusion is quite apparent, at least to me...

The Decalogue is the totality of its ten parts that shows the character of God through love. Without the fourth, the giver and receiver of that love cannot be identified.

Thank you for backing off the "Catholics changed the Sabbath" stuff. Maybe some of them say they did, but much of Christianity disagrees.

I even learned in SDA Academy that the ancient covenants('suzerainty') had their seal or sign in the middle of them. While the ten commandments have undeniably moral laws included, the ceremonial sign of the covenant with the nation of Israel is included right in the middle where it should be. I don't see where this sign is ever transferred to anyone else. It died with the old covenant. (I know, we go around in circles )

I was at a great Bible study group tonight and feel impressed to wish you and others here the best as my brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Thank you for backing off the "Catholics changed the Sabbath" stuff. Maybe some of them say they did, but much of Christianity disagrees.

If you will go back and re-read what K4C quoted in post #121, the Catholics never said they changed the Sabbath to Sunday, they said they changed the solemnity of the day to Sunday.

I even learned in SDA Academy that the ancient covenants('suzerainty') had their seal or sign in the middle of them. While the ten commandments have undeniably moral laws included, the ceremonial sign of the covenant with the nation of Israel is included right in the middle where it should be. I don't see where this sign is ever transferred to anyone else. It died with the old covenant. (I know, we go around in circles )

I guess it all comes down to whether or not one believes that we have been grafted into the vine that the Israelites were also a part of.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I was at a great Bible study group tonight and feel impressed to wish you and others here the best as my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Thanx brother...

 

[ricker]

If you will go back and re-read what K4C quoted in post #121, the Catholics never said they changed the Sabbath to Sunday, they said they changed the solemnity of the day to Sunday.



I guess it all comes down to whether or not one believes that we have been grafted into the vine that the Israelites were also a part of.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.




Thanx brother...

The promise was that of Christ, before the law.

16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.


To me it is plain to see that we are inheritors of the promise to Abraham of salvation through Jesus, and it is never said we were inheritors of the law introduced 430 years later, (and the law was only until Jesus came).

I'm sure you must see it differently. Would you be so kind as to explain to me what the actual words of this passage says to you? I would realy like to understand your perspective. (You did quote part of this passage as a reason we should keep the Sabbath.) Thanks!


Edit to add: Jesus said I am the vine, you are the branches.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The promise was that of Christ, before the law.

16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.


To me it is plain to see that we are inheritors of the promise to Abraham of salvation through Jesus, and it is never said we were inheritors of the law introduced 430 years later, (and the law was only until Jesus came).

I'm sure you must see it differently. Would you be so kind as to explain to me what the actual words of this passage says to you? I would realy like to understand your perspective. (You did quote part of this passage as a reason we should keep the Sabbath.) Thanks!


Edit to add: Jesus said I am the vine, you are the branches.

In verse 19 it says that the Law was added because of transgression... was sin invented 430 years after the promise to Abraham? No... the reason the Law was added was because the inheritors had little idea who or what God was and didn't have the inherited understanding that had been passed down from generation to generation since Adam to Jacob, that it is through righteousness by faith in the Messiah to come that salvation was found, typified in the sacrificial service.

The obedience to God's precepts (Law) was understood since Adam (after all, wasn't it disobedience that got him kicked out of Eden? Wasn't it disobedience to God's precept that condemned Cain?). These precepts, showing the loving nature of God, were never needed to be written, as the oral record was in effect until Egypt. At that time, God had to instruct a whole nation of neophytes that had not grown up with this knowledge, hence the Sinai experience. God had to reach His people where they were at, essentially heathens, and strict obedience on pain of immediate death was the only effective way to bring these people around to this understanding in short order. Even then, they struggled and murmured against God. The subsequent instruction of the earthy sanctuary and it's meaning was another step in this learning experience for the Israelites.

Just as a parent has to use the threat of punishment on a child to teach them to obey (the Law), the purpose is born out of love for that child with the hope that, as they mature, the understanding of the purpose (the Law) will be sufficient to have them obey because they realize that obedience brings joy and not sorrow. Jesus brought to us that maturity through His ministry that we might obey His precepts because we understand the Father loves us and that the results of not obeying (sin) will bring a perception of seperation from that love (calvary).

Is there ever a time that God is not right beside us, ready to help us and comfort us? Yet, when we sin, we feel like we are far from Him because of our guilt and shame. It is this feeling of despair that causes that seperation... not that God forsakes us but that we forsake Him. And if we continue to forsake Him, without repenting and realizing He is waiting for us, then we seal our own fates by ultimately rejecting what He is offering... outstretched arms of Love.

 

[k4c]

In verse 19 it says that the Law was added because of transgression... was sin invented 430 years after the promise to Abraham? No... the reason the Law was added was because the inheritors had little idea who or what God was and didn't have the inherited understanding that had been passed down from generation to generation since Adam to Jacob, that it is through righteousness by faith in the Messiah to come that salvation was found, typified in the sacrificial service.

The obedience to God's precepts (Law) was understood since Adam (after all, wasn't it disobedience that got him kicked out of Eden? Wasn't it disobedience to God's precept that condemned Cain?). These precepts, showing the loving nature of God, were never needed to be written, as the oral record was in effect until Egypt. At that time, God had to instruct a whole nation of neophytes that had not grown up with this knowledge, hence the Sinai experience. God had to reach His people where they were at, essentially heathens, and strict obedience on pain of immediate death was the only effective way to bring these people around to this understanding in short order. Even then, they struggled and murmured against God. The subsequent instruction of the earthy sanctuary and it's meaning was another step in this learning experience for the Israelites.

Just as a parent has to use the threat of punishment on a child to teach them to obey (the Law), the purpose is born out of love for that child with the hope that, as they mature, the understanding of the purpose (the Law) will be sufficient to have them obey because they realize that obedience brings joy and not sorrow. Jesus brought to us that maturity through His ministry that we might obey His precepts because we understand the Father loves us and that the results of not obeying (sin) will bring a perception of seperation from that love (calvary).

Is there ever a time that God is not right beside us, ready to help us and comfort us? Yet, when we sin, we feel like we are far from Him because of our guilt and shame. It is this feeling of despair that causes that seperation... not that God forsakes us but that we forsake Him. And if we continue to forsake Him, without repenting and realizing He is waiting for us, then we seal our own fates by ultimately rejecting what He is offering... outstretched arms of Love.

Awesome...

 

[Byfaithalone1]

In verse 19 it says that the Law was added because of transgression... was sin invented 430 years after the promise to Abraham?

Nope. All wrong doing is sin. Any man who knows to do right and does it not, to him it is sin. Sin is anything contrary to the mind of God. And the mind of God has always been.

In contrast, the law has not always been. It was added. Sin exists even in the absence of a condified system of law.

The obedience to God's precepts (Law) was understood since Adam (after all, wasn't it disobedience that got him kicked out of Eden?

The Spirit has always been. The ministry of the Spirit is more glorious than the ministry of letters engraves on stones. The former brings life and is everlasting and the latter brings death and existed for a finite period.

Is there ever a time that God is not right beside us, ready to help us and comfort us?

Apparently some believe there will be such a time . . . after the close of probation . . . when we will need to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The ministry of the law written on my heart is much greater than the law written in stone.

I'm assuming that you aren't appealing to the ministry that brings death here . . . correct?

The reason for this is because the law written on the heart is motivated by love whereas the law written in stone is motivated by fear.

It is not the motive alone that brings death. The ministry of letters engraved on stones bring death.

If you're still resisting the law then you're still under the Old Covenant because when the law is written on the heart it's not a burden.

I was never under the old covenant.

I agree with God and you don't.

Well alrighty then . . .

BFA

 

[k4c]

I'm assuming that you aren't appealing to the ministry that brings death here . . . correct?

It is not the motive alone that brings death. The ministry of letters engraved on stones bring death.

I was never under the old covenant.

Well alrighty then . . .

BFA

Why do you always focus on the death part of the Law when it also says the Law that was to bring life?

If you are, born of a woman, then you too were born under the Law.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Apparently some believe there will be such a time . . . after the close of probation . . . when we will need to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator.

BFA

Only the 144,000 that have purified themselves to able to do so....

 

[Revelation 14:6-12]

... Apparently some believe there will be such a time . . . after the close of probation . . . when we will need to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator.

[inserted from other BFA post; Revelation 14:6-12]

Indeed it was. Unfortunately, the interpretation of the parable led some to the conclusion that Jesus will one day leave us and foresake us. Not exactly Biblical.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7563380-3/#post57779787

[insert ended; Revelation 14:6-12]

BFA

It is true that we will need to stand before God without a mediator in a time to come and this is true, BUT I hope that what is clear is that while there is no longer mediation taking place after that time, for then salvation is then no longer being offered, we will still be filled with the Holy Spirit ["Oil", 5 wise virgins, etc], and Christ Jesus will still be with us by the Holy Spirit ["...lo I am with you alway..." and "never leave thee, nor forsake thee", etc]. God does not abandon us, but gives us more strength from Himself to His people in the latter rains. Please re-read the Parables and evidence given -

http://www.christianforums.com/t7563380-2/#post57755935

The type of the High Priest on the Day of Atonement, given in Leviticus 16 and 23, shows what Christ Jesus would do in reality. The event would come to completion and man would then be in atonement with God. Once in final and eternal atonement why then for further mediation? Those who refused in the typical day of atonement to come to terms with God on His terms, were cut-off from Israel.

"... He “shall sit and rule upon His throne; and He shall be a priest upon His throne.” Not now “upon the throne of His glory;” the kingdom of glory has not yet been ushered in. Not until His work as a mediator shall be ended will God “give unto Him the throne of His father David,” a kingdom of which “there shall be no end.” Luke 1:32, 33. As a priest, Christ is now set down with the Father in His throne. Revelation 3:21. Upon the throne with the eternal, self-existent One is He who “hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows,” who “was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin,” that He might be “able to succor them that are tempted.” “If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father.” Isaiah 53:4; Hebrews 4:15; 2:18; 1 John 2:1. His intercession is that of a pierced and broken body, of a spotless life. The wounded hands, the pierced side, the marred feet, plead for fallen man, whose redemption was purchased at such infinite cost.

“And the counsel of peace shall be between Them both.” The love of the Father, no less than of the Son, is the fountain of salvation for the lost race. ..." [The Great Controversy; Page 416] - http://www.connectingwithjesus.org/media/GC.pdf

"... Says the prophet: “Who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.” Malachi 3:2, 3. Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God’s people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.

When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. “Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.” Malachi 3:4. Then the church which our Lord at His coming is to receive to Himself will be a “glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing.” Ephesians 5:27. Then she will look “forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.” Song of Solomon 6:10. ..." [The Great Controversy; page 425] - http://www.connectingwithjesus.org/media/GC.pdf

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Where did the sin go that was recorded in Heaven in the true Tabernacle which the Lord pitched and not man? Compare Leviticus 16 and 23, with Hebrews and Revelation 14 and 20:1-3 and especially with the 2300 days of Daniel and the cleansing of the Sanctuary.

While the typical event as portrayed over and over again, as a shadow, pointing forward to the reality and true, which was to take place once and for all.

Christ Jesus called Prophet [called "that prophet" in his earthly ministry], and Priest [Highpriest in the Heavenly Sanctuary] and King [after removing the priestly garments, Christ Jesus places upon Himself the Kingly garments, and soon to reign in power and glory as King of Kings and Lord of Lords].

"...Michael’s standing up (Daniel 12:1) to deliver his people, is in the future.

This, will not take place, until Jesus has finished his priestly office in the Heavenly Sanctuary, and lays off his priestly attire, and puts on his most kingly robes, and crown, to ride forth on the cloudy chariot, to “thresh the heathen in anger,” and deliver his people.

Then Jesus will have the sharp sickle in his hand, (Revelation 14:14) and then the saints will cry day and night to Jesus on the cloud, to thrust in his sharp sickle and reap.

This, will be the time of Jacob’s trouble, (Jeremiah 30:5-8) out of which, the saints will be delivered by the voice of God. ..." [A Word To The Little Flock; page 12] - http://text.egwwritings.org/publica...ang=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=12

 

[ricker]

In verse 19 it says that the Law was added because of transgression... was sin invented 430 years after the promise to Abraham? No... the reason the Law was added was because the inheritors had little idea who or what God was and didn't have the inherited understanding that had been passed down from generation to generation since Adam to Jacob, that it is through righteousness by faith in the Messiah to come that salvation was found, typified in the sacrificial service.

The obedience to God's precepts (Law) was understood since Adam (after all, wasn't it disobedience that got him kicked out of Eden? Wasn't it disobedience to God's precept that condemned Cain?). These precepts, showing the loving nature of God, were never needed to be written, as the oral record was in effect until Egypt. At that time, God had to instruct a whole nation of neophytes that had not grown up with this knowledge, hence the Sinai experience. God had to reach His people where they were at, essentially heathens, and strict obedience on pain of immediate death was the only effective way to bring these people around to this understanding in short order. Even then, they struggled and murmured against God. The subsequent instruction of the earthy sanctuary and it's meaning was another step in this learning experience for the Israelites.

Just as a parent has to use the threat of punishment on a child to teach them to obey (the Law), the purpose is born out of love for that child with the hope that, as they mature, the understanding of the purpose (the Law) will be sufficient to have them obey because they realize that obedience brings joy and not sorrow. Jesus brought to us that maturity through His ministry that we might obey His precepts because we understand the Father loves us and that the results of not obeying (sin) will bring a perception of seperation from that love (calvary).

Is there ever a time that God is not right beside us, ready to help us and comfort us? Yet, when we sin, we feel like we are far from Him because of our guilt and shame. It is this feeling of despair that causes that seperation... not that God forsakes us but that we forsake Him. And if we continue to forsake Him, without repenting and realizing He is waiting for us, then we seal our own fates by ultimately rejecting what He is offering... outstretched arms of Love.

Apparently the only words you really read in the passage are " added because of transgressions". Doesn't that really mean that there was sin before the law given at Sinai,(which including the ten)? Eating of the forbidden tree in Eden is not stated in the law given to Israel.

You say God's law was understood since Adam. Does that make sense when the verses say the law was added 430 years after Abraham until the Seed came? It certainly doesn't say God reminded people 430 years later of the everlasting law already given to the whole world.

 

[k4c]

Apparently the only words you really read in the passage are " added because of transgressions". Doesn't that really mean that there was sin before the law given at Sinai,(which including the ten)? Eating of the forbidden tree in Eden is not stated in the law given to Israel.

You say God's law was understood since Adam. Does that make sense when the verses say the law was added 430 years after Abraham until the Seed came? It certainly doesn't say God reminded people 430 years later of the everlasting law already given to the whole world.

The Ten Commandments teach what godly love and righteousness looks like at it's basic level. Every sin and crime committed in the world has its root in God's Law.

We know that eating from the forbidden tree in Eden is not in God's Law in the same way writting bad checks is not in God's Law. But does that mean these acts don't violate God's Law? In the garden, Eve was coveting something that she couldn't have and gave into that desire. She also stole something that didn't belong to her. She also put herself as God. She also lied because God never said not to touch the tree. She also dishonored her Father. You could even say she killed when she gave it to Adam. I'm sure the list can go on but I think you get the point.