Sabbath, Mark of the Beast, Ellen White

Bob S

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So yes, I did it twice. What is the big deal, Bob? He who is without two mistakes cast the first stone. Can you cast that first stone, Bob? By the way, as long as you made your derogatory remarks and I have taken the opportunity to write this post, I only copied what Ellen wrote. I didn't alter it; all I did was to compare it with what scripture actually teaches.
 
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splish- splash

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As did I.

She was hit by a rock that some child threw at her.

I was run over by a car at the age of 3 - that was driven by a drunk driver. In my case - I was put into a coma and doctors said I was not expected to live.

So "yeah" I get the idea that someone could indeed suffer a head injury as a child. No question about that.

I went on to become a software engineer - and am one of the more athletic guys I know at my age despite having been paralyzed on one side of my body for a few months after I came out of the coma - following the car incident.,

yep - I think that is correct.

I think you are making a few wild leaps in logic just then.

She has authored a great many books including this commentary on the life of Christ - why don't you spend a little time to read it and see if you detect cognitive impairment.


Her writings were key to establishing a number of medical schools in our denomination. Her statements were very key in establishing training for doctors and nurses in teaching hospitals such a Loma Linda University , which is in one of the few documented "Blue Zones" in the world.


I am sorry about what you went through. Great testimony there though!

Unfortunately, this medical school business, isn't going to take anyone to heaven. It's the unadulterated straight word of God, that has to build Christ in us, so we can be fit to stand before God, on that dreadful day for many.

This concerns man's salvation here my brother. I mean her good works & all can not bring salvation to man. Even if institutions were built under her influence, it's the twisted doctrines in Adventism, that cannot bring us to that exact point of marrying Christ, this is where the problem is..

IF YOU ARE NOT A DESCENDANT OF JACOB, THEN YOU ARE NOT AN ISRAELITE, PERIOD!! AND EVEN IF WE ALL WERE ISRAELITES ON THIS FORUM, THE LAW WAS ABOLISHED AT THE CROSS. IT HAS BEEN DONE AWAY WITH. SO I AM WONDERING, WHICH HEAVEN ADVENTISTS THINK THEY ARE GOING TO ENTER THERE..

Even if one feels they genuinely love God, that alone isn't enough. We would now have to come out of that cage, of holding tight onto the law otherwise, King Jesus will reject us, as He can not be with another man's wife..
 
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splish- splash

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Ellen White always points one back to the bible, word of God.



Whoever might have taught/said this is in error .... and Ms. White herself never taught this .... she taught all (with few exceptions) sleep in the grave and the saved for all time will be in the 1st resurrection (including herself)

Regardless of her injury .... and/or education level .... one should look at what she wrote .... she was a very gifted author .... your should read The Great Controversy .... it goes through a lot of history and of course biblical references.

The point is .... one shouldn't take "someones word" about her writings (or any one else's writings for that matter) without checking them out for themselves using the bible and historical records.

The Word of God is the determining source for ruling out all mis-teachings .... period ... it doesn't matter where the teaching(s) comes from.

Study for yourself .... pray for understanding. Amen

OK
 
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BobRyan

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Unfortunately, this medical school business, isn't going to take anyone to heaven.

God gave health teaching in scripture. In Genesis before the flood - God has given mankind a plant based diet.
In Lev 18 - God tells humans what flesh "is for food"
God tells us that our body is the temple of God and we are not to attack our own body - to sin against the body - 1 Cor 6.

Living healthy does not "save the lost sinner" but God's intent is that under the Gospel "we have LIFE and that more abundantly" rather than suffering out of ignorance by eating that which poisons the body.

I mean her good works & all can not bring salvation to man.

This is not about "her good works" it is about your claim that dreams and vision and information for starting colleges and medical schools is the result of brain damage as a child.

I simply pointed out that having experienced severe head trama as a 3 year old - I can assure that such things as you suggest are not the result of brain injury. You don't appear to know what you are talking about in that regard.
it's the twisted doctrines in Adventism, that cannot bring us to that exact point of marrying Christ, this is where the problem is..
general insults and attacks have no value at all. If you had a doctrinal point you should make one that is more substantive than mere "pejorative after pejorative".

even non-Christians can simply content themselves to insult others. That is no sign of having a substantive point.
IF YOU ARE NOT A DESCENDANT OF JACOB, THEN YOU ARE NOT AN ISRAELITE, PERIOD!!
More Bible - less upper case.

Rom 2: 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

More Bible -- less condemnation of others please.

We would now have to come out of that cage, of holding tight onto the law
Here is what the Bible says about New Covenant Christians and - the Law

Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
1 John 5:3 "This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Jer 31:31-34
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.” Heb 8:6-12

Because - vitriol is not a good substitute for Bible study.

Sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice... is the best policy
 
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BobRyan

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Salvation is accessible only through the law of Christ & not of Moses: John 1v17
Mark 7:6-13 Jesus said "Law of God" = "Word of God" = "Moses said"

Matt 19 Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" and then is asked "Which ones?" -- Jesus' answer comes exclusively from the Law of Moses where He quotes many of the same commandments Paul quotes in Rom 13.

Paul says "'Honor your father and mother' is the FIRST commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 in that still-valid unit of TEN

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians under the NEW Covenant

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]many others as well..
 
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sparow

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Is 58:13
13 “If, because of the Sabbath, you restrain your foot
From doing as you wish on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a pleasure, and the holy day of the Lord honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,''

So John is the one that calls it "The Lord's Day" in Rev 1 and Isaiah calls it "The Holy DAY of the LORD" .. where God says "My Holy Day" in reference to it.

I don't see Isaiah and John at all out of step with each other in that case.



Indeed God made HIS Holy day to be a blessing for mankind. He still calls it "MY Holy Day"


That would be ignoring a few key Bible details.

In order for me to understand your protest I have to remember that you are a Roman Catholic wearing SDA apparel.


Before translation, Isaiah 58:13 does not use the word “holy”; a word preloaded with Roman Pagan religiosity, and in that way dishonors the Sabbath.


Bible translators always begin with preconceived ideas, I have recently realised that the KJV is basically a Roman Catholic interpretation/translation. You and I also have preconceived ideas when we read and interpret scripture. As we dispute the meaning of, “ John being in the spirit on the LORD'S DAY”, we should realise Isaiah 58:13 has nothing to do with the dispute.


God does not engage in vanity, so it is most likely John does not either. If it was the Sabbath day in which John claimed he was in the spirit, then what follows should be what John saw happening on that Sabbath. Because what he saw and records is that great and terrible day of the Lord, it would not be useless information if what John meant in Rev 1:10, was, “I was in the spirit on the Great and terrible Day of the Lord”, the day prophesied many time through scripture.

Jesus said, prey that it does not happen on the Sabbath
 
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eleos1954

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Actually there are some statements about "all how die at the time of the sharing of the 3 angels messages" -- i.e. in those years where the 3 angels messages are being promoted by them - are raised in what she calls "special resurrection" at the end of the 7 last plagues just before the day and hour of the 2nd coming so that they along with the 144,000 see the Lord coming and the saints raised.
Can you point me to her writings about this viewpoint? Would like to look further into this.

As far as I can find so far .... Ms. White always refers to the 144,000 being raised with the sleeping dead

One reference ...

"I saw that she [Mrs. Hastings, who had just died] was sealed and would come up at the voice of God and stand upon the earth, and would be with the 144,000. I saw we need not mourn for her; she would rest in the time of trouble."--Letter 10, 1850 (2SM 263).

those who pierced Him seeing Him

It would seem to me since He was pierced for our transgressions .... at His return there will be those that are in a transgressed state and those are the ones referring to the pierced (transgressors-unsaved alive at that time) (Now of course the rest of the dead that pierced (transgressed) Him as well will see Him at the 2nd resurrection.) when the New Jerusalem descends.

Isaiah 53:5
New International Version

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

The piercing is referring to transgressions (violation of law) and not the literal of those that took place and pierced Him at the cross.
My point (thus far) ..... all pierce Him with their/our transgressions

 
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splish- splash

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God gave health teaching in scripture. In Genesis before the flood - God has given mankind a plant based diet.
In Lev 18 - God tells humans what flesh "is for food"
God tells us that our body is the temple of God and we are not to attack our own body - to sin against the body - 1 Cor 6.

Living healthy does not "save the lost sinner" but God's intent is that under the Gospel "we have LIFE and that more abundantly" rather than suffering out of ignorance by eating that which poisons the body.



This is not about "her good works" it is about your claim that dreams and vision and information for starting colleges and medical schools is the result of brain damage as a child.

I simply pointed out that having experienced severe head trama as a 3 year old - I can assure that such things as you suggest are not the result of brain injury. You don't appear to know what you are talking about in that regard.

general insults and attacks have no value at all. If you had a doctrinal point you should make one that is more substantive than mere "pejorative after pejorative".

even non-Christians can simply content themselves to insult others. That is no sign of having a substantive point.

More Bible - less upper case.

Rom 2: 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

More Bible -- less condemnation of others please.


Here is what the Bible says about New Covenant Christians and - the Law

Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
1 John 5:3 "This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Jer 31:31-34
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.” Heb 8:6-12

Because - vitriol is not a good substitute for Bible study.

Sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice... is the best policy


Its fine
 
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eleos1954

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That's fine... We are all sharing aren't we!?

I think though, I have already addressed the issue on the 10 commandments before, in another thread.

I know for a fact that, I would never ever again, start trying to tackle commandments 1 by 1, when Christ who is living in me, is the end of the law..

This is another reason why Adventist ministers are always getting caught up in all kinds of issues. Its this business of sidelining Christ & then, trying to achieve the things of the spirit from a carnal standpoint, which causes all the problems.

It is Christ who enables us & not our own efforts.

This is what SDA teaches .... it is Christ's power through the Holy Spirit that helps one to overcome .... we will never be perfect .... but Christ is the one who sanctifies us ..... (continuously throughout our earthly life time) .... not ourselves doing anything .... HIs work in the believer and
glory to Him when that happens .... and He will finish HIS work.

Philippians 1:6 New Living Translation (NLT)
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

HIS work .... not ours.
 
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FPhelps

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As did I.

She was hit by a rock that some child threw at her.

I was run over by a car at the age of 3 - that was driven by a drunk driver. In my case - I was put into a coma and doctors said I was not expected to live.

So "yeah" I get the idea that someone could indeed suffer a head injury as a child. No question about that.

I went on to become a software engineer - and am one of the more athletic guys I know at my age despite having been paralyzed on one side of my body for a few months after I came out of the coma - following the car incident.,

yep - I think that is correct.

I think you are making a few wild leaps in logic just then.

She has authored a great many books including this commentary on the life of Christ - why don't you spend a little time to read it and see if you detect cognitive impairment.


Her writings were key to establishing a number of medical schools in our denomination. Her statements were very key in establishing training for doctors and nurses in teaching hospitals such a Loma Linda University , which is in one of the few documented "Blue Zones" in the world.
 
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FPhelps

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Many years ago, I was baptised as an sda at the start of my conversion as a Christian. Later i attended a church where the pastor refused to teach investigative judgment and he was thrown out of the church. I do agree with the sabbath teaching and some of the other doctrines but not all, i don't feel it is appropriate that we have to agree on all the teachings of a particular church under duress. Anyway we cant all agree on every doctrine people have and should just stick to the gospel which is mandatory. 1st corinthians 15;1-4
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
 
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BobRyan

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Many years ago, I was baptised as an sda at the start of my conversion as a Christian. Later i attended a church where the pastor refused to teach investigative judgment and he was thrown out of the church. I do agree with the sabbath teaching and some of the other doctrines but not all, i don't feel it is appropriate that we have to agree on all the teachings of a particular church under duress.

I agree no one should be forced to agree with any denomination. In the dark ages people were forced to agree with a particular group or suffer "Extermination" (See LATERAN IV).

But every denomination has the right to insist that it's own Pastors teach the doctrinal distinctives of that group. The Catholics have the right to insist that the priests that they pay - affirm their core doctrines as they state them. This is true of all denominations.

I find the "Investigative" Judgment explicitly in Rom 2:4-16 and I find it summarized in 2 Cor 5:10 and I find it point at in Dan 7:8-10 where "Books are opened" and a corporate event like "the court" sits for judgment where eventually as Dan 7:22 states "Judgement is passed in favor of the saints" NASB -- which I see as fully consistent with that same process in Romans 2.

But no one has to agree with me on that point. Each one has free will and can choose to affiliate with whatever doctrinal set they wish and then select the denomination that best aligns with their choice.

Anyway we cant all agree on every doctrine people have and should just stick to the gospel which is mandatory. 1st corinthians 15;1-4
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
You ended in the middle -

4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.​

1 Cor 15 in the example above includes quite a few things in "the good news" of the Gospel.
So it is interesting that Paul ALSO includes the future judgment in the Gospel
- Rom 2:13-16
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.​


So does Revelation 14 - include that same Rom 2 judgment in the Gospel
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and sea and springs of waters.”​
8 And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality.”​
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.​
 
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FPhelps

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there we go by the deeds of the law no one shall be justified. The everlasting gospel is the same one,



20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus Galatians 3.26. We are not under a school master!
 
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BobRyan

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there we go by the deeds of 3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.the law no one shall be justified. The everlasting gospel is the same one,
depends on the context for the term "justify".

In Romans 2 it is future "will be justified" and refers to the 2 Cor 5:10 judgment future to Paul's day. It is a future judgment the proceeds along the lines defined in Rom 2:4-16

- Rom 2:13-16

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.​

Now notice that in Romans 2 - Paul does not say "so everyone fails" rather he says some succeed and others do not.

Rom 2 is NOT an "everyone fails" chapter.

3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.​
notice how the chapter ends
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.​
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
1 John 5:3 "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"
Where - Eph 6:2 "The first commandment with a promise is - HONOR your father and mother" (the unit of Ten)
Rev 14:12 "The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
As John MacArthur reminds his listeners "we are saved by grace but judged by works"

The Romans 2 context is "future justification" when he says "WILL be justified" In Rom 2:13

Same in James 2:
21 Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.​

That is the Matt 7 sort of justification where the good tree is known by its fruits. IT is not a case of a bad tree producing good fruit in order to become a good tree.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’​
16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.​

That Matt 7 principle is what we see in Romans 2: 5-16 described in detail. It is the process of the judgment described in detail. IT reveals what is a good tree and what is not a good tree. 2 Cor 5:10 is the summation for that sort of judgment based on deeds.


20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

That is the Romans 3 context for justification and it is not looking at good trees. Rather it is looking at ALL mankind being bad trees - IT makes the case that a bad tree does not become a good tree by bearing good fruit. This is perfectly consistent with the Matt 7 and Romans 2 statements about the difference between a born-again new-creation vs someone who has only the sinful nature and is not participating in the New Covenant at all.

In the "justification past" context of Rom 3 and Rom 5:1-3 - all are lost and the lost person can only be justified by faith apart from the works of the Law. The lost person only has "bad fruit". The lost person is condemned. The Gospel must be accepted by the lost person,.

Once that happens - the New Covenant takes over - with the LAW Written on the heart Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:6-12
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus Galatians 3.26. We are not under a school master!
The school master of Gal 3 is the condemnation of the Law for the lost person. It is also in Rom 3:19-20. IT is what drives the bad tree to accept the Gospel, become born again - become a good tree. Romans 3 says everyone is under that school master as a lost person and Gal 3 says that the person is ONLY released from that state - "WHEN FAITH comes". It is only when the lost person embraces faith in Christ that they are released from condemnation, born again, and transfered to the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 with the LAW of God written on the heart

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

Walking in those good works is the good fruit that reveals that the person is now "a good tree".

Looking at that tree in true Romans 2:5-16 fashion does not "change its state" .... it is still either a bad tree or a good one. Looking at the fruit changes nothing. That is the nature of future justification in the courtroom context of Dan 7.

The investigation into the Dan 7 books does not change a person's state. It merely "reveals it".

If a person is not a born-again new-covenant saint the fruit of the tree will reveal that fact.
If the person IS a born-again new-covenant saint - CHRIST says the fruit WILL reveal that fact.

Romans 2 relies on that being a fact.
 
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