discipler7

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2017
1,118
324
tog
✟42,302.00
Country
Heard Island And Mcdonald Islands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
klutedavid said:
Hello discipler.

Abraham believed God and was declared righteous, yet Abraham saw the day of Christ.

John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.
discipler7 said:
Abraham died at around 2000BC. Jesus Christ was crucified on the Cross at around 33AD. How did Abraham see His day and was glad.?
... I'm not saying that he did not, but just asking how.
.
.
God shows prophets the future.

And as Gal 3:8 says "the Gospel was preached to Abraham"
GALATIANS.3: = 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

GALATIANS.3:8 does not say that Abraham(circa 2100BC) saw the day of Christ(circa 33AD) and was glad. Are you claiming that God showed Abraham the future day of Christ in a vision.?
 
Upvote 0

Doug Melven

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,080
2,576
60
Wyoming
✟83,208.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
.
.

Moses Law consists of 613 laws that were kept by the Jews, especially during Old Testament time. JOHN.1:29 says that Jesus Christ was the Lamb of God sacrificed on the Cross to take away the sin of the world and save them from hell when they die. LEVITICUS.1-7 is the law of sacrifice to God. LEVITICUS.4:32 mentioned about the sacrifice of a lamb as a sin offering to God. So, the Law of Moses do point to Jesus Christ but was only revealed to His apostles and disciples, and to Christians today; and not to Old Testament Jews.
... IOW, Old Testament Jews like beggar Lazarus, the sinful rich man, Moses, Elijah, etc, had no idea that the Law and the Prophets pointed specifically to Jesus of Nazareth of the New Testament(circa 33AD onward) as the Christ/Messiah. So, your statement below about LUKE.16:29-31 is not true, ...

Did Jesus show to beggar Lazarus, the sinful rich man, Moses, Elijah and other Old Testament Jews all the Scriptures concerning Himself like at LUKE.24:44.?

Btw, do you know why the rich Jewish man of LUKE.16:19-31 was sent to hell after he died.?
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Notice it does not say law. Jesus didn't say law of Moses until verse 44.
"Moses" from what I have seen refers to the torah or the Pentateuch, which Moses wrote.
Nobody could be saved by the law, OT or NT.
Romans 3 and 4 bring this out well.
3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin
.
4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Abraham himself was saved by faith. Could not have been by his good behavior or law keeping.
God imputed righteousness to him for believing. So He could say that Abraham kept His precepts, statutes and judgments. But it is recorded in Genesis that Abraham lied about Sarah being his sister twice. And then when you look in Leviticus 18:6-9 we see that we are not to uncover the nakedness of a sister or stepsister, later in the chapter He calls it an abomination.
Sarah was his stepsister.

So you can say Abraham did not have this law or he was not imputed sin.
Then we have Simeon.
Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
He understood the Scriptures to say Messiah was coming.
Then there is Paul.
Acts 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
He would have had to use the Pentateuch and Prophets just like Jesus did on the Road to Emmaus.
 
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
.
Abraham died at around 2000BC. Jesus Christ was crucified on the Cross at around 33AD. How did Abraham see His day and was glad.?
... I'm not saying that he did not, but just asking how.
Hello discipler.

I have no idea how Abraham saw the day of the Christ, nor would anyone else be able to understand that verse. Yet, that is what Jesus told us. Everyone is judged ultimately against the Christ, either you believe and follow Jesus (Abraham believed). Or you reject Jesus and follow the path of the disobedient.
 
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Hello Bob.

You stated the following.
The Law of God defines what righteousness is
That is not correct Bob.

The law tells you what behavior is NOT righteous behavior.

The law, thou shall not kill, is not telling us that not killing someone is righteous behavior. The law is simply saying that killing someone is unrighteous behavior. If you have not killed anyone, this does not mean that you are a righteous person, not at all.

If you have not stolen from anyone, that is not saying that you are a righteous person.

The law is simply telling you why you are not a good person, the law condemns.
 
Upvote 0

Doug Melven

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,080
2,576
60
Wyoming
✟83,208.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The law gives knowledge of what is good and evil.
8 commandments of "Thou shall not", 1 "Thou shalt" and 1 "Remember"
Where have I seen this "knowledge of good and evil" before?
Oh yeah, in the Garden of Eden there was a tree called The tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
It was death to eat the fruit of that tree.
 
Upvote 0

discipler7

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2017
1,118
324
tog
✟42,302.00
Country
Heard Island And Mcdonald Islands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Notice it does not say law. Jesus didn't say law of Moses until verse 44.
"Moses" from what I have seen refers to the torah or the Pentateuch, which Moses wrote.
.
DEUT.18: = A New Prophet Like Moses
15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’

17 “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.

JOHN.14:: = 14 Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.”
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

My point is that from about 1500BC until 000BC, Moses Law had also prophesied or pointed to Jesus Christ as the coming Messiah/Christ/Prophet but the beggar Lazarus, sinful rich man,(of LUKE.16:19-31) Moses, Elijah and other Old Testament Jews who lived from about 1500BC to 000BC, did not know that the prophesies or pointing of the Law was specifically towards Jesus Christ because He had yet to come down to earth.

Similarly, the NT has prophecies about the 2nd Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to earth. But believers do not know the exact day of His 2nd Coming.
... Imagine that today is the day that the Lord Jesus Christ returns to earth. So, hereafter the raptured or resurrected believers know the exact day of His 2nd Coming as 23 Nov 2017 and may start counting this year as 000AC and not 2017AD.

Again, why was the rich Jewish man of LUKE.16:19-31 sent to hell.? For not having faith in Jesus.?
 
Upvote 0

discipler7

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2017
1,118
324
tog
✟42,302.00
Country
Heard Island And Mcdonald Islands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hello discipler.

I have no idea how Abraham saw the day of the Christ, nor would anyone else be able to understand that verse. Yet, that is what Jesus told us.
.
1PETER.3: = 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

1PETER.4:6 = 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Doug Melven

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,080
2,576
60
Wyoming
✟83,208.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Again, why was the rich Jewish man of LUKE.16:19-31 sent to hell.? For not having faith in Jesus.?
It says in that passage that Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom and the rich man was in hell because Lazarus was not comforted in his lifetime and the rich man took his ease during his lifetime. But I hope that that was not why Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom. There are lots of people today who go through hell on earth and they are not trusting in Jesus, and I am sure there were lots of poor people before Jesus came who only thought about about money, but they were poor just like Lazarus.
 
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
.
1PETER.3: = 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

1PETER.4:6 = 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Hello discipler.

The problem with your quotation is that Jesus spoke about Abraham in the present. Jesus had not yet been crucified when He said, that Abraham saw his day.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
55,396
8,158
US
✟1,101,041.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Hello Klutedavid.

The law tells you what behavior is NOT righteous behavior.

The law, thou shall not kill, is not telling us that not killing someone is righteous behavior. The law is simply saying that killing someone is unrighteous behavior. If you have not killed anyone, this does not mean that you are a righteous person, not at all.

If you have not stolen from anyone, that is not saying that you are a righteous person.

The law is simply telling you why you are not a good person, the law condemns.

ORLY?

Matthew 22:36-40Contemporary English Version (CEV)
36 “Teacher, what is the most important commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus answered:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. 38 This is the first and most important commandment. 39 The second most important commandment is like this one. And it is, “Love others as much as you love yourself.” 40 All the Law of Moses and the Books of the Prophetsa]">[a] are based on these two commandments.


Please explain.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: discipler7
Upvote 0

discipler7

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2017
1,118
324
tog
✟42,302.00
Country
Heard Island And Mcdonald Islands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It says in that passage that Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom and the rich man was in hell because Lazarus was not comforted in his lifetime and the rich man took his ease during his lifetime.
.
LUKE.16: = 19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

DEUT.15: = Generosity to the Poor
7 “If there is among you a poor man of your brethren, within any of the gates in your land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart nor shut your hand from your poor brother, 8 but you shall open your hand wide to him and willingly lend him sufficient for his need, whatever he needs. 9 Beware lest there be a wicked thought in your heart, saying, ‘The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand,’ and your eye be evil against your poor brother and you give him nothing, and he cry out to the Lord against you, and it become sin among you.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

The rich man was sent to hell after he died because he unrepentantly broke the Law at DEUT.15:7-9.

He had 5 rich brothers who were not-yet-dead and were also doing the same thing/sin unrepentantly.
 
Upvote 0

discipler7

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2017
1,118
324
tog
✟42,302.00
Country
Heard Island And Mcdonald Islands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hello discipler.

The problem with your quotation is that Jesus spoke about Abraham in the present. Jesus had not yet been crucified when He said, that Abraham saw his day.
.
When He was physically on earth, the Lord Jesus Christ was God-in-the-flesh or the Father-in-the-flesh. God/Jesus is eternal and does not see things as past/present/future. They are the same to Him.

HEBREWS.13:8 = 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
 
Upvote 0

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
91
Knoxville Tn.
✟70,085.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed
I really don't want this to become a debate, but I understand if it does.

I've been learning about God recently (I've only been a Christian for a couple months) and I'm some how just now realizing that I may have to do the Sabbath day. This may sound weird, but it's making me panic.
I have terrible religious anxiety and OCD, so the moment I realize something like this, I panic and think I'm going to be damned for not doing it/doing it wrong. I also panic because I'm afraid of FOLLOWING the rules. The more rules there are, the more I may mess up.

Some people say we don't HAVE to do the Sabbath, but we can if we want. Others say that we need to. I've seen some mention how the law is written on your heart and the Holy Spirit convicts you if you do wrong, so if you don't feel conviction, do you have to do it?

I'm panicking because I don't want to do the Sabbath. It feels like a chore to make sure I don't do any chores. I have a problem with panicking over the rules instead of focusing on the relationship with God, but I don't want to do anything wrong. I'm so afraid all the time and this is just added stress in my head. I feel like I'm already panicking about a million things, and now I have to make sure I don't do anything all day on Saturday and I don't even know how to do that.

Some say if you don't feel like you have to, then don't do it. But others say that you need to. But it's supposed to be a day of rest and happiness I assume, and if it makes me upset, should I even do it?

I know that Jesus fulfilled the law, didn't abolish it, so does that mean we still have to do the Sabbath? Does that mean we still have to follow Leviticus? People say we live under grace and not the law, but that doesn't mean we can just go around and do harm all the time and do whatever you want. You're supposed to obey God's Word, right?

So then does it matter if I don't want to do the Sabbath? Do I have to force myself to do it? I don't really feel convicted to do it, I think, but I can't tell because I'm anxious all the time and my racing thoughts make it hard to focus. And I worry that even if God has told me what to do, I'm not recognizing it or not listening because of my fear of doing it. So I try to just open myself up and listen for Him, but I panic instead and I can't tell what's going on or stop thinking about it to avoid fear.

Then I also wonder is it on Saturday or Sunday? Is it okay to practice the Sabbath on Saturday at home alone, and then go to church on Sunday? Or does your Sabbath have to be on the day you go to church?

I feel like God doesn't want me to panic this much. I feel like the Sabbath should be a day I enjoy, but I panic and I just don't know what to do.

The main reasons I don't want to do the Sabbath are as follows:
-I live with my dad (I'm physically injured and can't work right now) and if he asks me to do something on the Sabbath and I don't, I fear getting in trouble. But I don't want to put the will of my dad's before the will of God.

-The weekend is the only time I get to really spend time with people. My dad is at work all week (He comes home at night but I only see him for a few hours) and I'm alone. All. The. Time. During the weekend, if my dad wants to do something on Saturday (or Sunday, which ever day one must do the Sabbath), I want to do it because I want to do something with a person and not be isolated.

-I worry that the list of things I'm not allowed to do will be a difficult task.
Am I allowed to use electricity?
Can I do the dishes?
Can I paint and do arts and crafts?

It says in the Bible (I think) that people were not supposed to light a fire or make people work. Would using electricity violate that?
Jesus was okay with his disciples picking wheat, and people apparently (to my knowledge) led their animals to water and stuff. Wasn't that considered chores? So it's okay to do some things? But what things are okay to do?

And I enjoy doing crafts and stuff. It's not work to me. I like doing it with my family, but is that bad? Saturday may be the only time I can do these things with my family (it may be doable on Sunday but idk). They don't follow the Sabbath so I would just be alone. That makes me sad.

I guess I can try to convince my family to do stuff on Sunday, after I get back from church. My dad likes to ride his motorcycles on Sunday, but I can try. Usually things are done on Saturday, though.

I just don't feel like the Sabbath is a day of rest for me. It's makes me panic instead. I don't mind the idea of focusing more on God. Maybe putting away the electronics, read the Bible more, don't go to work/school, etc.

I just worry about how far I have to take it, if I even have to do it at all. Jews don't use electricity and I'm not a Jew, but I still wonder if I can't. Am I supposed to just literally sit all day and do nothing? Except read the Bible?

Today I was worried about what I was supposed to do, but I went out with my dad for breakfast anyway and we went to the craft store. I don't feel bad about it necessarily, but I have anxiety. I ALWAYS have anxiety. About everything pretty much. I tried to recognize if I felt convicted before I went out and I didn't. I felt fine while I was out for the most part, too. Part of me is like, "What if this was wrong and I've been turning a blind eye to it and now I'm in trouble."
And part of me is like, "I feel fine about it, it's not big deal, God is still first in my life, it's fine, etc."

I don't know what to do. I panic over everything and I tend to blow things out of proportion and over complicate things. I don't want to do rituals to be a Christian, I just want to be friends with God, but I'm also aware that I have to obey, too. This just makes me panic. I guess it's because I'm selfish. I don't mind turning off distractions like the TV and my phone to focus more on God, but I worry about how far I have to take it (no dishes, laundry, family fun/outings, etc.)

Also, if I do have to do this, I messed up today obviously. But it ends when it gets dark right? I feel bad for asking because I feel like, "Okay it will be over and you will be safe."

Plus my dad wants to go see a movie with me tonight and I want to spend time with him, but I feel bad for being happy because I feel like I'm like, "Okay the Sabbath will be over and I can do what I want."
I don't want to be selfish.

I try to tell myself that if I have to do this, I can just try again next week and don't panic over today, that I'm still figuring this stuff out, but I don't want to excuse this Saturday since it would be sin if I did wrong today. I don't feel bad about it right now, though...

I just worry over everything. Everything has to be monitored for me. Every little detail has to be examined and perfect for me. If I don't do this Sabbath stuff perfectly, I'm afraid I'll go to hell.

The only requirements about the Sabbath is to remember it, keep it holy and don't do any work.

The Sabbath is only a reminder of who sanctified us(Ex 31:13), and who freed us from bondage(Deut 5:15). We keep it holy by remembering what God did for us and by thanking Him for doing it, and by not working to do what He has done for us.

If your fathers asks you to do something, ask him if you can do it tomorrow. If he says no, do it today, obey the commandment to honor you mother and father. If you think it causes you to sin, confess it and God will ALWAYS forgive you.

Remember, once one is saved, they cannot lose their salvation because God will not allow it. If your church teaches other wise, point them to Philippians 1:6 -For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

and

Hebrews 12:2 - fixing your eyes on Jesus the author and perfecter of faith...

and I pet 1:23 - for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is through the living and enduring word of God.

If they still insist you can lose your salvation, change churches. They will keep you spiritually upset all your Christian life and you will not enjoy being a Christian.

Nehemiah 8:10b - ...do not be grieved, for the joy of the Lord is your strength.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Doug Melven
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,366
10,610
Georgia
✟912,925.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Hello discipler.

The problem with your quotation is that Jesus spoke about Abraham in the present. Jesus had not yet been crucified when He said, that Abraham saw his day.

Abraham "saw my day" -- John 8.
1 Peter 1 says that in the OT the saw "The sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,366
10,610
Georgia
✟912,925.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
.
Again, why was the rich Jewish man of LUKE.16:19-31 sent to hell.? For not having faith in Jesus.?

Luke 16 "if they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead"

the Law of Moses is in BOTH covenants --

Being saved by grace means being saved via the "ONE Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 -- and that means the New Covenant where sins are forgiven and the heart is changed.

Please explain the definition for the term "My Law" as referenced by Jeremiah in the NEW Covenant - Jer 31:31-33

"This IS the New Covenant I will make.... I will write My LAW on their mind and heart"

Some have attempted to spin-doctor the text of Jer 31:31-33 away from its obvious meaning -- and yet we have these irrefutable facts.

1. No text says "not the LAW that I gave at Sinai"
2. No text says that Jeremiah did not know the TEN Commandments were in the LAW of God
3. No scholars claim that the LAW of God known to Jeremiah did not include God's Ten Commandments

Answer to the question above is for certain that: Jeremiah and Paul were in agreement on that point according to Acts 24

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets

The moral law of God can be found in what Moses wrote -- so obvious that even BOTH sides of the Bible-Sabbath vs Sunday debate agree that all TEN of God's TEN commandments are included in the moral LAW of God (not ceremonial or civil law) written on the heart.

A few examples of the Law of Moses - to see just why both sides admit that it is written on the heart

Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
Ex 20:7 "Do not take God's name in vain"
Ex 20:12 "Honor your parents"

According to the Gospel teaching of Christ - it is a mistake to preach against the LAW of Moses according to Christ in Mark 7:6-12

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

"Moses said" = "Commandment of God" = "Word of God"

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets
 
Upvote 0