Sabbath and the New Covenant

Leaf473

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Hi Leaf -

I addressed both of those explicitly in my prior post


Notice that I predicted I would be asked to post that same info "again and again".
I disagree that you responded with an explicit Yes or No to the question in post #4.

I disagree that you addressed the issue of whether a sacred day gathering was also written on the hearts of people from the very beginning.

Here is another question you, or anyone, can address explicitly, if you wish:
Was it written on the hearts of people from the very beginning to sacrifice more on the Sabbath?

We see people all around the world throughout history making sacrifices to gods. It seems reasonable that humans have the idea of sacrifice written on their hearts. Is there evidence of humans all around the world throughout history sacrificing twice as much on a particular seventh day?
 
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Leaf473

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There is no "Taboo test" in scripture. sounds like a whim at that point
I agree it's not stated. It looks to me like Paul alludes to the idea here

mankind has a lot of "worship pagan gods" practices for many thousands of years - and is no proof at all against the command to not do it.
There is evidence that even in pagan cultures, some people are aware that God is not an idol, that he is transcendent.

That's evidence that humans do have inside them a knowledge of God's character and the resultant morality.
Of course, most humans choose to ignore that.

This detail was already pointed out in my post that addressed your same question previously - the fact that some struggle with the issue of not bowing down before images and promising to serve those that they represent is not "proof" that such commands of God may be deleted as per the whim we find in your suggestion above.
But that's not actually what I'm saying, though.

How is this even a tiny bit confusing in your POV??
I don't think it is confusing :)

I do think it's an interesting subject to discuss.
 
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BobRyan

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If scriptures say that Gentiles did not have the law, why do you side with lies
You misunderstood scripture.

IT says they (the gentiles) were not given the scriptures both in Rom 2 and in Rom 3.

As we all know it is the Jews that were given the written scriptures but that never meant that gentiles were supposed to take god's name in vain.

I don't see how this is even a tiny bit confusing.

Is 56:6-8 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping
Mark 2:27 Christ said that Sabbath "was made for mankind" not "made just for Jews"
Is 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Paul writes to gentiles to honor their parents saying "Honor your father and mother in is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 in that unit of Ten written by God's own hand.
Don't get it twisted,
My point exactly.
The scriptures are the words of God, you should not add or take away from it.
Yep and that includes editing or downsizing the TEN. (as Christ points out in Mark 7:7-13

Glad we can agree on something after all.
God's words (promises) to Abraham began a sequence of events that should not be undermined by a false narrative about creation.
Amen. The literal 7 day creation week as seen in Ex 20:11 AND in Gen 2:2-3 when as Christ said "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27

I am amazed at how many points of agreement we actually do have!
Here what God Himself said about the law and the Sabbath.
So then - the Sabbath "Commandment" in ... "the LAW" of TEN

Ex 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 For six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your cattle, or your resident who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Eze 20:10
¶Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.
Eze 20:11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
Yep -- agreement "again".
We should say and understand according to scripture that God gave the Children of Israel the law and the Sabbath.
And also the gentiles -

Is 56:6-8
6“Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To attend to His service and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it,
And holds firmly to My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,
“I will yet gather others to them, to those already gathered.”

as Christ said "the Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27 at the time it was "made" in Gen 2:2-3 as even Ex 20:11 admits that this is when it was MADE.
Apostle John wrote The law came by Moses .
Jhn 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Christ calls it "the WORD of God" and condemns the downsizing or editing of it in Mark 7:7-13

7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
False, it says they did not have the law.
Rom 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
"Showing the WORKS OF THE LAW -written on their heart" -- in Rom 2:15 which you omitted.

(were we simply not supposed to notice?"

Rom 2: 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

He speaks of the NEW Covenant

Jer 31:31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”
You're desperate to support your narrative.
are you desperate to ignore and omit scripture each time you find it inconvenient?

That is not a compelling form of argument -- I think we all know that.
It's obvious why you always abuse these same scriptures with your narrative.
that ad hominem is probably your best argument so far.
 
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BobRyan

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We see people all around the world throughout history making sacrifices to gods. It seems reasonable that humans have the idea of sacrifice written on their hearts. Is there evidence of humans all around the world throughout history sacrificing twice as much on a particular seventh day?
from there we see a flip flop to a few or 'anyone' in some pagan culture that decides to ignore all the false gods of that culture...

There is evidence that even in pagan cultures, some people are aware that God is not an idol, that he is transcendent.
So now you changed your argument from "many/most" to "some people" is it your claim that if some people know something that the Bible also states - only then can we accept what God's word says about it?

I find that odd.

mankind has a lot of "worship pagan gods" practices for many thousands of years - and is no proof at all against the command to not do it.

This detail was already pointed out in my post that addressed your same question previously - the fact that some struggle with the issue of not bowing down before images and promising to serve those that they represent is not "proof" that such commands of God may be deleted as per the whim we find in your suggestion above.

How is this even a tiny bit confusing in your POV??


But that's not actually what I'm saying, though.
In fact it is exactly what you were saying with your statement that some people ignore a certain part of what is in the Bible and still feel good about it (as if that negates the Bible position on a specific doctrine found in the Law of God"

That is why in my most post I say you will want it repeated

Your argument flounders at that point since you have put yourself in a corner of deleting whatever part of the TEN that someone ignores. How is this obvious point getting omitted from your posts?
 
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Leaf473

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So now you changed your argument from "many/most" to "some people"
It's not a change. Everyone has God's law written inside of them.

Most people choose to ignore it.

is it your claim that if some people know something that the Bible also states - only then can we accept what God's word says about it?
No, that is not my claim.

I find that odd.
Yes, it would be an odd claim.

In fact it is exactly what you were saying with your statement that some people ignore a certain part of what is in the Bible and still feel good about it (as if that negates the Bible position on a specific doctrine found in the Law of God"
No, that isn't what I'm saying.

That is why in my most post I say you will want it repeated
I don't want the same thing repeated. But if you don't address what I'm saying, then I will probably restate it.

Your argument flounders at that point since you have put yourself in a corner of deleting whatever part of the TEN that someone ignores.
Not true.

How is this obvious point getting omitted from your posts?
Because you are engaging in straw man tactics :)

Peace be with you, my man!

I enjoy a good discussion. If you'd like that, too, I invite you to respond with an explicit Yes or No to Post #4
Do you believe the seventh day Sabbath was written on the hearts of people from the very beginning?
 
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Leaf473

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Say, @BobRyan my man, if you want to extend the discussion, and if your post #5 constitutes a Yes to my post #4, I invite you to answer the follow-up question in post #6
If so, do you believe that a sacred day gathering was also written on the hearts of people from the very beginning?

 
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BobRyan

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It's not a change. Everyone has God's law written inside of them

no text says that all mankind has the law of God written on the heart..

As we all know.

Rather what we find in Jer 31:31-34 and in Hebrews 8 is that those under the NEW covenant have that experience.

Bible details matter.

John 16 --
2 They will ban you from the synagogue, yet an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering a service to God. 3 These things they will do because they have not known the Father nor Me.

Can we expect this to lead to a post saying that even murder is not a commandment of God written on the heart under the New Covenant.??

seriously?
 
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BobRyan

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Say, @BobRyan my man, if you want to extend the discussion, and if your post #5 constitutes a Yes to my post #4, I invite you to answer the follow-up question in post #6
Leaf473 said:
If so, do you believe that a sacred day gathering was also written on the hearts of people from the very beginning?

Already answered here #5 - (for those who read the entire posts)

And I noted the "please repeat what you just said" element that some choose as their response to it -- here #34
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Is 56:6-8 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping
Mark 2:27 Christ said that Sabbath "was made for mankind" not "made just for Jews"
Is 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Paul writes to gentiles to honor their parents saying "Honor your father and mother in is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 in that unit of Ten written by God's own hand.

And when someone finds those texts to be too inconvenient -- what might they respond with???


It's obvious why you always abuse these same scriptures with your narrative.
 
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Leaf473

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no text says that all mankind has the law of God written on the heart..
I believe this text does say that.

As we all know.
Rather what we find in Jer 31:31-34 and in Hebrews 8 is that those under the NEW covenant have that experience.
Probably written more clearly. Which leads to the question of whether everyone in the New Covenant is aware that they are to be gathering on the Sabbath. If so, then only those who are currently doing that are sincere Christians, it seems like.

Bible details matter.

John 16 --
2 They will ban you from the synagogue, yet an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering a service to God. 3 These things they will do because they have not known the Father nor Me.
Can we expect this to lead to a post saying that even murder is not a commandment of God written on the heart under the New Covenant.??
Probably not.

seriously?
 
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Leaf473

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Already answered here #5 - (for those who read the entire posts)
Assuming that it's answered with a Yes, then is this law also written on the hearts of all humans from the beginning?

And I noted the "please repeat what you just said" element that some choose as their response to it -- here #34
 
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Bob S

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Your argument is often "with the text" - and that is especially true in your questioning Jer 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8.
Answer my question. If we are not able to read the ten on our hearts until we are saved what is the use of having the ten on our hearts? How many billion are going to die because you haven't gotten out there to tell them they have the ten written on their hearts? Funny that everyone knows right from wrong, they just don't know about the fourth one. You know it is the one that God only gave to one nation, Israel.
 
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Bob S

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Seriously? Why are there any sermons on adultery, or lying or stealing or coveting or honoring parents in the NT since those commandments are written on the heart under the New Covenant? THAT is the kind of question you are asking?
I am confused with all your answers Bob. Actually, in Jeramiah, the new covenant was given only to Judah and Israel. So, they should be the ones, according to you, that have the ten written on their hearts. We don't have it written in our hearts, but yet we know right from wrong even if we don't have a relationship with Jesus. You have a bunch of splannin to do.
Have you read the NT?

Have you read Eph 6:2
I believe you have not read all of Eph 2 or you deny it exists because Paul rights the following:
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing.
Probably because you are blinded to the real truth. Otherwise, well-meaning people do that to each other.
 
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BobRyan

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What a silly conclusion. Why would a perfect God write the ten on our hearts if He knew we cannot read them?
Your argument is often "with the text" - and that is especially true in your questioning Jer 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8.

So then God says --
"THIS IS the NEW Covenant... I WILL WRITE MY LAW on their heart and mind..." Heb 8, Jer 31.

How is this even a tiny bit confusing??
Answer my question. If we are not able to read the ten on our hearts
The metaphor of "write" is being misconstrued in your question as a pen writing on a biological organ and then read by the person.

Obviously that is completely wrong.
until we are saved what is the use of having the ten on our hearts?
That is a much better question.

First of all - I never claimed that the Bible says unsaved people are under the New Covenant.
Everyone in all of time who was saved - was saved under the one and only Gospel covenant -- the new covenant.
Rom 3:19-20 says that everyone who is lost -- is lost under the old covenant -- under the condemnation of the law

Even so - Romans 1 says that they are without excuse even in the Old Covenant lost condition -
John 16 applies - where the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin

As for Rom 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

The text does not say "the lost have the TEN written on the heart as if they were under the New Covenant" -- as we all know. I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing.

21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.​
24 Therefore God gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.​
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature, 27 and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.​
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper, 29 people having been filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unfeeling, and unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also approve of those who practice them.​



How many billion are going to die because you haven't gotten out there to tell them they have the ten written on their hearts?
The Bible says only the saved - who are under the New Covenant have that condition. Have you read it? Jer 31:31-34.
John 16 says it is the Holy Spirit who has "gotten out there to tell them they have sinned" -- have you read it?

Is this in some way confusing in your POV???
You know it is the one that God only gave to one nation, Israel.
Jer 31:31-34 -- New Covenent - only given to Israel
Mark 2:27 "Sabbath was MADE FOR MANKIND" -- have you read it?
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth


I am confused with all your answers Bob.

I am starting to believe it.
 
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BobRyan

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Actually, in Jeramiah, the new covenant was given only to Judah and Israel.
indeed - as noted in my previous post.

And Rom 2 says "26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Is this news to you ? Have you been thinking that the "New Covenant is not for you"???

If so - I have learned something new today.
So, they should be the ones, according to you, that have the ten written on their hearts.

If they are born-again Christians under the New Covenant -- then "yes".

The Bible never says the lost are under the New Covenant - rather in Rom 2:19-20 we see that they are still under the old covenant "obey and live" and since all have sinned - they are lost under that covenant.

Perhaps this is the part you knew all along -- so not sure why it is such a question in your mind at this point.
We don't have it written in our hearts,
Certainly you are right - a very large group of humans do not have that New Covenant condition of the Law of God written on the heart.

I cannot argue with that.
I believe you have not read all of Eph 2 or you deny it exists
You will need to prove that accusation first.

Probably because you are blinded to the real truth.
ad hominem may be fun for you - but it is not a compelling form of argument.
State a fact instead.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:

Already answered here #5 - (for those who read the entire posts)
Assuming that it's answered with a Yes,
Obviously your practice not actually reading the post is not actually helping your argument here.

Already answered here #5 - (for those who read the entire posts)

And I noted the "please repeat what you just said" element that some choose as their response to it -- here #34
Where I "read it for you" in terms of the post section that you are carefully not reading.

then is this law also written on the hearts of all humans from the beginning?
No Bible text says that all humans are under the New Covenant. As we all know -- not sure why this is still confusing to you even though it has been pointed out a few times.

How in the world do you even get to that idea??
 
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BobRyan

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Probably written more clearly. Which leads to the question of whether everyone in the New Covenant is aware that they are to be gathering on the Sabbath.
BobRyan said:
Already answered here #5 - (for those who read the entire posts)
And I noted the "please repeat what you just said" element that some choose as their response to it -- here #34

I find your usual practice of 'read it for me again please' rather odd but you seem to enjoy it , predictably

That is where we find this -


No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul
[*]many others as well..
And this
======================================= here is the part I will be asked to post again... and again.

And this is true EVEN THOUGH some will argue that "not bowing down before images and not serving them" - is an "issue" in some denominations that needs to be "re-thought carefully".

So then -- there exists saved saints in all denominations but not all have the same in-depth knowledge of scripture and accept it.
and this
2 Tim 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; correct, rebuke, and exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth and will turn aside to myths

1 Tim 4: 1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
and this
by contrast in Acts 17: "11 Now these people were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things (spoken by the Apostle Paul) were so.

Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap.

John 3:9 Nicodemus responded and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you people do not accept our testimony.

John 7:17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.
and this
Clearly not all the Jews became convinced through study of scripture that Christ's doctrine was of God. Yet John 7 remains true and so also Gal 6:7
Notice that I predicted I would be asked to post that same info "again and again".

And then a sort of "well then read it for me" series of responses
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing.
Probably because you are blinded to the real truth.
the argument that I would be as confused about this as you claim you are - if only I were not blinded -- is an odd argument Bob.

I have not seen that one used before.
 
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Bob S

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indeed - as noted in my previous post.

And Rom 2 says "26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Is this news to you ? Have you been thinking that the "New Covenant is not for you"???

If so - I have learned something new today.


If they are born-again Christians under the New Covenant -- then "yes".

The Bible never says the lost are under the New Covenant - rather in Rom 2:19-20 we see that they are still under the old covenant "obey and live" and since all have sinned - they are lost under that covenant.

Perhaps this is the part you knew all along -- so not sure why it is such a question in your mind at this point.

Certainly you are right - a very large group of humans do not have that New Covenant condition of the Law of God written on the heart.

I cannot argue with that.

You will need to prove that accusation first.


ad hominem may be fun for you - but it is not a compelling form of argument.
State a fact instead.
You are blinded.
 
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Gary K

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Answer my question. If we are not able to read the ten on our hearts until we are saved what is the use of having the ten on our hearts? How many billion are going to die because you haven't gotten out there to tell them they have the ten written on their hearts? Funny that everyone knows right from wrong, they just don't know about the fourth one. You know it is the one that God only gave to one nation, Israel.
Don't you believe in the work of the Holy Spirit?
 
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