Sabbath and the New Covenant

[Gary K]

What a silly conclusion. Why would a perfect God write the ten on our hearts if He knew we cannot read them?

Not cannot. Will not, until we are born again.

 

[Gary K]

Hi Gary, which part of my post are you asking "Why" about?

Your entire post.

 

[Leaf473]

I would expect that taboos around the Sabbath would be as common as taboos around murder or sexuality because the same God would have written them all.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 2:14-15 - New Living Translation

Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

www.biblegateway.com

Well, taboos of some sort around a particular seventh day, the same day around the world. I would expect that taboos *around* the Sabbath would be as common as taboos *around* murder or sexuality.


I've seen a list commonly circulated here that allegedly shows that all languages have a word for Sabbath.

But the list is heavily biased towards Indo-European and Semitic languages. Can you think of a reason for that?

Why?

Hi Gary, which part of my post are you asking "Why" about?

Your entire post.

Okay, let's start with the first part, then. It contains a "because". Do you understand what I'm saying there? I'm not asking you if you agree with it or not, just if you understand it.

I would expect that taboos around the Sabbath would be as common as taboos around murder or sexuality because the same God would have written them all.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 2:14-15 - New Living Translation

Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

Okay, let's start with the first part, then. It contains a "because". Do you understand what I'm saying there? I'm not asking you if you agree with it or not, just if you understand it.

I understood your question very well. Again I ask, why? To the world's eyes murder and adultery hurt other people. It doesn't understand the need for the Sabbath and apparently you don't either or you would have understood my question.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I am a stickler for technical perfection: ην δε σαββατον εν εκεινη τη ημερα...
So then, no, it doesn't necessarily need to read the way your translation reads it.

The author says there was a Shabbat in that day speaking not of the weekly full day of the Shabbat but of the daily Shabbat hour. But like I said, if they had attached a half hour to the Shabbat, to hedge about the commandment, that explains the whole issue. All that is actually necessary is for one to believe the Master for exactly what he says, "My Father works until right now", meaning that the actual Shabbat hour had just begun as he spoke those words, and that their hedge about the commandment does not mean he broke the Torah but rather ignored their added hedge, which surely would have offended them, and apparently it did to the point of suddenly desiring to have him put to death, (the transgression of desolation, Dan 8:13). But who is willing to believe the power and authority of the one who just stated exactly when the Shabbat had begun right there in the text?

That's a new twist on an old story. Seems like all the translations say pretty much the same thing.

New International Version
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath,

New Living Translation
But this miracle happened on the Sabbath,

English Standard Version
Now that day was the Sabbath.

Berean Standard Bible
Now this happened on the Sabbath day,

Berean Literal Bible
And it was the Sabbath on that day.

King James Bible
and on the same day was the sabbath.

New King James Version
And that day was the Sabbath.

New American Standard Bible
Now it was a Sabbath on that day.

NASB 1995
Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

NASB 1977
Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

Legacy Standard Bible
Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

Amplified Bible
Now that day was the Sabbath.

Christian Standard Bible
Now that day was the Sabbath,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now that day was the Sabbath,

American Standard Version
Now it was the sabbath on that day.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
and it was the Sabbath day.

Contemporary English Version
The day on which this happened was a Sabbath.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And it was the sabbath that day.

English Revised Version
Now it was the sabbath on that day.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
That happened on a day of worship.

Good News Translation
The day this happened was a Sabbath,

International Standard Version
Now that day was a Sabbath.

Literal Standard Version
and it was a Sabbath on that day,

Majority Standard Bible
Now this happened on the Sabbath day,

New American Bible
Now that day was a sabbath.

NET Bible
(Now that day was a Sabbath.)

New Revised Standard Version
Now that day was a sabbath.

New Heart English Bible
Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

Webster's Bible Translation
and on the same day was the sabbath.

World English Bible
Now that day was a Sabbath.

Young's Literal Translation
and it was a sabbath on that day,

 

[Leaf473]

I understood your question very well. Again I ask, why? To the world's eyes murder and adultery hurt other people.

It doesn't understand the need for the Sabbath and apparently you don't either or you would have understood my question.

I wasn't talking about understanding the need for a law

 

[daq]

That's a new twist on an old story. Seems like all the translations say pretty much the same thing.

New International Version
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath,

New Living Translation
But this miracle happened on the Sabbath,

English Standard Version
Now that day was the Sabbath.

Berean Standard Bible
Now this happened on the Sabbath day,

Berean Literal Bible
And it was the Sabbath on that day.

King James Bible
and on the same day was the sabbath.

New King James Version
And that day was the Sabbath.

New American Standard Bible
Now it was a Sabbath on that day.

NASB 1995
Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

NASB 1977
Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

Legacy Standard Bible
Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

Amplified Bible
Now that day was the Sabbath.

Christian Standard Bible
Now that day was the Sabbath,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now that day was the Sabbath,

American Standard Version
Now it was the sabbath on that day.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
and it was the Sabbath day.

Contemporary English Version
The day on which this happened was a Sabbath.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And it was the sabbath that day.

English Revised Version
Now it was the sabbath on that day.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
That happened on a day of worship.

Good News Translation
The day this happened was a Sabbath,

International Standard Version
Now that day was a Sabbath.

Literal Standard Version
and it was a Sabbath on that day,

Majority Standard Bible
Now this happened on the Sabbath day,

New American Bible
Now that day was a sabbath.

NET Bible
(Now that day was a Sabbath.)

New Revised Standard Version
Now that day was a sabbath.

New Heart English Bible
Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

Webster's Bible Translation
and on the same day was the sabbath.

World English Bible
Now that day was a Sabbath.

Young's Literal Translation
and it was a sabbath on that day,

Sorry, I decided to disengage from this thread, (not because of anything you said), and deleted that post. You were probably writing up this response when I deleted my post. It is simply too much to try to explain here without a person having a fairly thorough understanding of the Torah and its calendar. Yom is light, not "Day", or "a day" or even daylight in the sense of sunlight, (Gen 1:5, Elohim calls the light "Yom", and therefore yom is light), and a yom may be a wide range of different time increments, from a yom for a year, a yom for a thousand years, even to a yom for a watch in the night, (Psalm 90, a Psalm of Mosheh), and if yom can be a day, or a year, or a thousand years, or a watch in the night which is only three hours, then surely a yom may also be an hour.

What people often do not understand is that Greek is really nothing more than a language on loan employed for expressing Hebrew thoughts, concepts, and ideas into the Greek language. This means that hemera, ("day" in Greek), carries all of the meanings for yom in the Hebrew text, and this is undeniable thanks to the Greek LXX translation of the Hebrew scriptures.

There is a Shabbat in that yom, in John 5, but that yom is the hour, and yet all of the hours on the sacred calendar day commence at the bottom of the hour, not the start of the hour or top of the hour like in the twelve hour civil calendar day, which is why there is a half hour of silence in Rev 8:1-4 before one of the oblation times, (incense, which coincides with the prayer times and the morning and evening twice daily continual offerings). The bottom of the hour on the sacred calendar day is the same as it is in the opening creation account because that is the pattern and foundation text for the sacred calendar day, which is seven yamim-hours in a yom-day: so the evening comes first, then the morning, (Genesis 1:5, etc., etc.).

The rulers of the people in John 5 were probably commencing the Shabbat hour at the top of the hour, which would have been incorrect, even if the extra half hour seemed like a good idea to help keep people from breaking the Shabbat: but that still would not mean that the Master, or the man who carried his bedding as commanded, had broken the Shabbat according to the scripture. The only thing broken was a handwritten dogma in the form of a Sanhedrin ruling.

 

[Bob S]

Not cannot. Will not, until we are born again.

If someone is not saved, then what is written on that person's heart cannot be read. That seems diabolically wrong. Where is your information coming from?

 

[Gary K]

If someone is not saved, then what is written on that person's heart cannot be read. That seems diabolically wrong. Where is your information coming from?

Scripture. How do you figure that a person's heart who isn't saved can't be read? That seesms like a very odd assertion to me.

 

[Cribstyl]

Do you believe the seventh day Sabbath was written on the hearts of people from the very beginning?

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 2:14-15 - New International Reader's Version

Gentiles do not have the law. Sometimes they just naturally do what the law requires. They are a law for themselves. This is true even though they don’t have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts. The way their minds judge them proves this fact. Sometimes their...

www.biblegateway.com

Good job...... What is written trumps what is reasoned in error.

 

[Cribstyl]

Are we sinful human beings? If so it must be written in our hearts just like the rest of the 10.

If you read from Gen 1, you should understand that being created in the image of God is the bar, rather than a law you have reasoned in error.
If scriptures say that Gentiles did not have the law, why do you side with lies and make the word of God hard for you to understand?
Does scripture about the flood reveal lawbreaking or did it reveal that men were doing what was right in their own eyes?
Before sin, there was no knowledge of good or evil (true or false?)
The law is knowledge of good and evil. (True or False?)

Who could Adam possibly steal from, bare false witness against, or commit adultery with?
It seems doubtful that Adam had the ten tattooed on his heart because most of the ten was impossible for him to break.

Scripture show, the 1 commandment Adam was given is what he broke. (Rom5)
Are we subjected to that same commandment also?

 

[Gary K]

If you read from Gen 1, you should understand that being created in the image of God is the bar, rather than a law you have reasoned in error.
If scriptures say that Gentiles did not have the law, why do you side with lies and make the word of God hard for you to understand?
Does scripture about the flood reveal lawbreaking or did it reveal that men were doing what was right in their own eyes?
Before sin, there was no knowledge of good or evil (true or false?)
The law is knowledge of good and evil. (True or False?)

Who could Adam possibly steal from, bare false witness against, or commit adultery with?
It seems doubtful that Adam had the ten tattooed on his heart because most of the ten was impossible for him to break.

Scripture show, the 1 commandment Adam was given is what he broke. (Rom5)
Are we subjected to that same commandment also?

You forget the Bible contains more than one definition of sin.

Romans 14: 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Eve doubted God's word. Adam chose to join her in her disobedience.

Genesis 2: 1 NOW the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

So where did I lie or say something false?

 

[Gary K]

If you read from Gen 1, you should understand that being created in the image of God is the bar, rather than a law you have reasoned in error.
If scriptures say that Gentiles did not have the law, why do you side with lies and make the word of God hard for you to understand?
Does scripture about the flood reveal lawbreaking or did it reveal that men were doing what was right in their own eyes?
Before sin, there was no knowledge of good or evil (true or false?)
The law is knowledge of good and evil. (True or False?)

Who could Adam possibly steal from, bare false witness against, or commit adultery with?
It seems doubtful that Adam had the ten tattooed on his heart because most of the ten was impossible for him to break.

Scripture show, the 1 commandment Adam was given is what he broke. (Rom5)
Are we subjected to that same commandment also?

Yes. This thread is about the Sabbath and the NC so let's look at the results of the NC.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The results? That everyone who participates in the NC personally knows who God is.

Now let's look at what Jesus says about knowing God and its exact parallel to the NC.

John 17: 1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So salvation is simply a matter of personally knowing God because His law is written in our hearts. All 10 of His commandments, not just 9 of them.

So, once again, where have I said anything false or misleading?

 

[BobRyan]

Hi BobRyan

Is that a Yes, you do believe the seventh day Sabbath was written on the hearts of people from the very beginning?

If so, do you believe that a sacred day gathering was also written on the hearts of people from the very beginning?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 23:3 - New International Reader's Version

The Sabbath Day “ ‘There are six days when you can work. But the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest. You must rest on it. Come together on that sacred day. You must not do any work on it. No matter where you live, it is a Sabbath day to honor the LORD.

www.biblegateway.com

Hi Leaf -

I addressed both of those explicitly in my prior post

one Gospel Gal 1:6-9
preached to Abraham Gal 3:8
preached to us just as it was to them also Heb 4:2

Sabbath given to all mankind in Gen 2:2-3 at creation - as in the case of all TEN of the Ten Commandments

Jer 31:31-34 "law of God written on the heart" included the TEN where "He spoke the TEN and added no more" Deut 5:22

These basic Bible details admitted by the majority of even Sunday-keeping denominations

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul
[*]many others as well..

======================================= here is the part I will be asked to post again... and again.

And this is true EVEN THOUGH some will argue that "not bowing down before images and not serving them" - is an "issue" in some denominations that needs to be "re-thought carefully".

So then -- there exists saved saints in all denominations but not all have the same in-depth knowledge of scripture and accept it.

Judges 21:
23 The sons of Benjamin did so, and took wives according to their number from those who danced, whom they seized. And they went and returned to their inheritance, and rebuilt the cities and lived in them. 24 And the sons of Israel departed from there at that time, every man to his tribe and family, and each one departed from there to his inheritance.
25 In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

2 Tim 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; correct, rebuke, and exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth and will turn aside to myths

1 Tim 4: 1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

by contrast in Acts 17: "11 Now these people were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things (spoken by the Apostle Paul) were so.

Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap.

John 3:9 Nicodemus responded and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you people do not accept our testimony.

John 7:17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

Clearly not all the Jews became convinced through study of scripture that Christ's doctrine was of God. Yet John 7 remains true and so also Gal 6:7

Notice that I predicted I would be asked to post that same info "again and again".

 

[BobRyan]

Yes. This thread is about the Sabbath and the NC so let's look at the results of the NC.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The results? That everyone who participates in the NC personally knows who God is.

Now let's look at what Jesus says about knowing God and its exact parallel to the NC.

John 17: 1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So salvation is simply a matter of personally knowing God because His law is written in our hearts. All 10 of His commandments, not just 9 of them.

Amen - good point.

 

[BobRyan]

If scriptures say that Gentiles did not have the law, why do you side with lies

You misunderstood scripture.

IT says they were not given the scriptures both in Rom 2 and in Rom 3.

As we all know it is the Jews that were given the written scriptures but that never meant that gentiles were supposed to take god's name in vain.

I don't see how this is even a tiny bit confusing.

Is 56:6-8 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping
Mark 2:27 Christ said that Sabbath "was made for mankind" not "made just for Jews"
Is 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Paul writes to gentiles to honor their parents saying "Honor your father and mother in is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 in that unit of Ten written by God's own hand.

 

[BobRyan]

What a silly conclusion. Why would a perfect God write the ten on our hearts if He knew we cannot read them?

Your argument is often "with the text" - and that is especially true in your questioning Jer 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8.

 

[BobRyan]

If the Sabbath commandment has been written on the hearts of humans since the beginning, I would expect that taboos around the Sabbath would be as common as taboos around murder or sexuality

There is no "Taboo test" in scripture. sounds like a whim at that point

mankind has a lot of "worship pagan gods" practices for many thousands of years - and is no proof at all against the command to not do it.

This detail was already pointed out in my post that addressed your same question previously - the fact that some struggle with the issue of not bowing down before images and promising to serve those that they represent is not "proof" that such commands of God may be deleted as per the whim we find in your suggestion above.

How is this even a tiny bit confusing in your POV??

 

[BobRyan]

Why would anyone need to be "preached" to about the Sabbath if it is one of the ten commandments you tell us is righten in our hearts????

Seriously? Why are there any sermons on adultery, or lying or stealing or coveting or honoring parents in the NT since those commandments are written on the heart under the New Covenant? THAT is the kind of question you are asking?

Have you read the NT?

Have you read Eph 6:2

I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing.

 

[Cribstyl]

You misunderstood scripture.

Don't get it twisted,
The scriptures are the words of God, you should not add or take away from it.
You (not the scriptures) are presenting a contradiction, that Sabbath and the law was instituted in creation.

God's words (promises) to Abraham began a sequence of events that should not be undermined by a false narrative about creation.
Here what God Himself said about the law and the Sabbath.
Eze 20:10
¶Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.
Eze 20:11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
Eze 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

We should say and understand according to scripture that God gave the Children of Israel the law and the Sabbath.

Apostle John wrote The law came by Moses .
Jhn 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

IT says they were not given the scriptures both in Rom 2 and in Rom 3.

As we all know it is the Jews that were given the written scriptures but that never meant that gentiles were supposed to take god's name in vain.

I don't see how this is even a tiny bit confusing.

False, it says they did not have the law.
Rom 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
You're desperate to support your narrative.

Is 56:6-8 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping
Mark 2:27 Christ said that Sabbath "was made for mankind" not "made just for Jews"
Is 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Paul writes to gentiles to honor their parents saying "Honor your father and mother in is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 in that unit of Ten written by God's own hand.

It's obvious why you always abuse these same scriptures with your narrative.