Russian Lawmaker Demands Return of Alaska

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It is not that they are a morally superior form of government, it is the fact that those governments can be democratically gotten rid of by means of general elections.

If I believed there was genuine representation of different ideological positions in various parties in the Western world I would concede this point. It seems to me however that the differences between the major parties of any given western Democracy are minimal and ultimately meaningless. The system of governance still goes on despite the party in charge and the established bureaucracy defends it's interest independent of the electoral process.

In theory you can get rid of a government, but the structure of democratic nations prevents it from happening. Hence I tend to believe voting, if you're a dissident, is pointless.

 

[Homeowner]

In the 20th century. Notwithstanding their being democracies at home.

Times change. Societies evolve. Our understanding of the world grows. It is not 20th century anymore.

 

[Homeowner]

It seems to me however that the differences between the major parties of any given western Democracy are minimal and ultimately meaningless.

Pretty sad outlook at life. Also no way you can prove anything like that.

 

[Archivist]

The US invaded the Philippines when it declared itself independent of Spanish rule and forced it under it's jurisdiction in the first place. It would not have needed to grant independence if it hadn't invaded in the first place.

Actually the Philippines declared independence from Spain in 1898 only after Dewey’s squadron had defeated the Spanish in the Battle of Manila Bay.

The Philippines, as you well know, is not the only unjustified US war or annexation. Lest we think there was any real justification to annex Hawaii

Technically the US was justified in annexing Hawaii after the Hawaiian Republic asked to be annexed. The overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy was, however, a whole different story.

or invade the Middle East in the crusade for Democracy.

Except the US didn’t annex any portion of the Middle East.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Pretty sad outlook at life. Also no way you can prove anything like that.

I can only observe what I think to be the case. That western liberal countries go in one direction no matter who is in charge. Once a major change occurs that change quickly becomes the accepted opinion and we move from it, unable to think of reversing or returning to the previous state of things.

It's not a sad outlook, though if you believe in the West and the ideals of the enlightenment, I can understand why you think it's sad. But I don't believe in the enlightenment ideals.

 

[Homeowner]

I can only observe what I think to be the case.

If you only observe what you think to be the case you are usually rewarded with success on your chosen subject.

That is a very subjective result though.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Actually the Philippines declared independence from Spain in 1898 only after Dewey’s squadron had defeated the Spanish in the Battle of Manila Bay.

And that gave the US the right to rule the Philippines?

Technically the US was justified in annexing Hawaii after the Hawaiian Republic asked to be annexed. The overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy was, however, a whole different story.

The monarchy was the legitimate government of Hawaii. The US has since apologized for it's annexation of the Kingdom and most regard it has having been an illegal seizure.

Except the US didn’t annex any portion of the Middle East.

No, you forcibly established 'democratic' regimes which you attempted to align with yourselves and your interests. The most obvious example being Afghanistan which was a US puppet until recently.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If you only observe what you think to be the case you are usually rewarded with success on your chosen subject.

That is a very subjective result though.

Well if you want to discuss the topic, we can but I'm not going to play this game where you assume some sort of intellectual supremacy to my position but don't explain how I'm wrong. Having grown up in the West all my life, I can tell you, this position was not easily come to on my part.

 

[Homeowner]

Well if you want to discuss the topic, we can but I'm not going to play this game where you assume some sort of intellectual supremacy to my position but don't explain how I'm wrong. Having grown up in the West all my life, I can tell you, this position was not easily come to on my part.

It was more of a word play. Anyway I have huge respect for all the rigors residents of New Zealand have to go through worrying about imperialistic neighbors and border wars. It can scar the soul forever.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It was more of a word play. Anyway I have huge respect for all the rigors residents of New Zealand have to go through worrying about imperialistic neighbors and border wars. It can scar the soul forever.

Alright, it's clear you're not serious. Have a good day.

 

[Till Schilling]

I can only observe what I think to be the case. That western liberal countries go in one direction no matter who is in charge. Once a major change occurs that change quickly becomes the accepted opinion and we move from it, unable to think of reversing or returning to the previous state of things.

It's not a sad outlook, though if you believe in the West and the ideals of the enlightenment, I can understand why you think it's sad. But I don't believe in the enlightenment ideals.

I am not sure whom you include in your definition of “western liberal democracies” but I see significant differences between them.

 

[Homeowner]

Alright, it's clear you're not serious. Have a good day.

They all are. Just got to get that perspective going.

 

[Archivist]

And that gave the US the right to rule the Philippines?

Right of conquest.

The monarchy was the legitimate government of Hawaii. The US has since apologized for it's annexation of the Kingdom and most regard it has having been an illegal seizure.

And I already said that the overthrow of the monarchy was a different story. However, at the time it was annexed Hawaii was a republic not a kingdom.

No, you forcibly established 'democratic' regimes which you attempted to align with yourselves and your interests. The most obvious example being Afghanistan which was a US puppet until recently.

Ah yes, and the people of Afghanistan are so much better off under their current rulers, aren’t they?

Now folks, can we please get the thread back on topic? We are talking about a Russian official demanding the return of Alaska and a California fort, territory that was purchased by the United States.

 

[Till Schilling]

Now folks, can we please get the thread back on topic? We are talking about a Russian official demanding the return of Alaska and a California fort, territory that was purchased by the United States.

Back to the topic then: it is of course just Russia trying to create confusion. No doubt that in his heart Putin would love to defeat the US and claim those and other territories. But there is no serious threat to him trying. Putin is a thug, but there is logic. He can be deterred.

Ukraine was obviously NOT able to deter Russia. Neither would Moldovia or Georgia be. The big question is: what will NATO do, what will the US do if Putin tries - as is already discussed on Russian tv - to create a corridor from Belarus to Kaliningrad. I would not be surprised if that happens. Russian planes cannot fly over the Baltic states anymore. So a flight from Moskau to Kaliningrad has to fly over St. Petersburg and the Baltic sea. Also transportation of goods by truck to the enclave is now more difficult and takes much longer. So a corridor through Lithuania or Poland could be the next target.

 

[Archivist]

Back to the topic then: it is of course just Russia trying to create confusion. No doubt that in his heart Putin would love to defeat the US and claim those and other territories. But there is no serious threat to him trying. Putin is a thug, but there is logic. He can be deterred.

Ukraine was obviously NOT able to deter Russia. Neither would Moldovia or Georgia be. The big question is: what will NATO do, what will the US do if Putin tries - as is already discussed on Russian tv - to create a corridor from Belarus to Kaliningrad. I would not be surprised if that happens. Russian planes cannot fly over the Baltic states anymore. So a flight from Moskau to Kaliningrad has to fly over St. Petersburg and the Baltic sea. Also transportation of goods by truck to the enclave is now more difficult and takes much longer. So a corridor through Lithuania or Poland could be the next target.

And of course if a NATO country is attacked then the US and NATO get drawn into a war with Russia.

 

[East of Eden]

Sarah Palin goes with the deal.

She'd be a huge improvement over our current VP.

Why does Russia need more land, they have a declining population.

 

[Till Schilling]

And of course if a NATO country is attacked then the US and NATO get drawn into a war with Russia.

Well, this is the question, isn’t it? After Trump promising - because it would have sounded a promise to Putin - after Trump promising to take the US out of NATO the answer to this question is not sure anymore. The deterrence is not 100% anymore. Will the US, will France and the UK really risk nuclear war with Russia over Lithuania?

 

[Archivist]

Well, this is the question, isn’t it? After Trump promising - because it would have sounded a promise to Putin - after Trump promising to take the US out of NATO the answer to this question is not sure anymore. The deterrence is not 100% anymore. Will the US, will France and the UK really risk nuclear war with Russia over Lithuania?

Except Trump is no longer in power and Putin is aware of that. An attack on one NATO country is an attack on all NATO countries.

 

[East of Eden]

No, you forcibly established 'democratic' regimes which you attempted to align with yourselves and your interests. The most obvious example being Afghanistan which was a US puppet until recently.

Islam has no interest in Western style human rights and democracy.

 

[East of Eden]

Except Trump is no longer in power and Putin is aware of that.

Which is why this invasion happened, weakness invites aggression. That and Clinton's pressuring Ukraine to give up their nukes.