Rusmeister...leaving?

[rusmeister]

We all want to be understood.
What I've been finding, as I get older and older, is that fewer and fewer people understand me. I imagine that to be the common lot of older folk. When one approaches fifty, his or her experience (as it seems to me) has, as a rule, grown deep enough that explaining the things learned to others becomes more and more difficult, requiring ever more context. And we can certainly see this in comparison by age with people significantly younger than ourselves, and many of us have that experience in explaining things to children. With young children, it's generally not a big problem, though, because they know us, trust us, and are inclined to faith (one of the things relevant to Christ speaking of becoming as children).

But when we deal with adults, we encounter other experience, and skepticism, and we measure what they say against our own experience, naturally enough, as they do with what we say. And I think that can be a problem, a thing that keeps us from receiving truth, as well as keeping out falsehood. For we can miss truth because we hear something strange that doesn't "jive" with our experience, and the failure may be on the part of the speaker, an inability to deliver context or clarity (something I've been struggling with ever since I've felt I have something to say), but it can also be in the ears that hear. I think we can definitely recognize this if we've ever tried to convey truth to teenagers (something that requires a special kind of wisdom I wish I had more of). The parent knows something, is trying to convey it to the teenager, and the teenager, in his own desire to be knowledgeable and assert himself, rejects it.

Is age a factor? I think so, and I think it a particular error of the West to discount the experience of age. But it is not that older people are automatically wiser or smarter (the "smarts", in particular, may belong to the younger one), just that, in our general attitude of democracy, we extend the idea of equality to things that it is not proper to.

Anyway, it's not age, but the context of experience that I'm driving at here. A thirty-five year-old who spent ten years in a prison camp can blow away a fifty year-old without analogous experience on the subject of being imprisoned (I myself, thankfully, have only a few hours of that unhappy experience). I think anyone with actual and extensive experience of that would be more than a little miffed if they tried to share that experience on a forum like this and found their views treated as of merely the same value as everyone else's (which is often not much), and were told off by other people with opinions.

There are a few things here where I find myself in that situation. I imagine I'm not the only one, it must be that others have special experience in something, yet go ignored or are belittled by those without similar experience on
something. We live in a world that has become pluralistic and global, where the reigning slogan is "Have your say!" and yet, with all of this freedom of speech, we can hardly hear anyone else. We are actively encouraged to have opinions on everything, no matter what our basis in knowledge or experience.

There are a lot of things that I don't know much about, where I am just "Dr Stupid", and I periodically say so when I do have a comment outside of my special experience. But I find it almost impossible to talk about the few things I really DO know something about. When I speak about them, as someone who really has more of that experience and knowledge, I rarely get any reaction but skepticism or am simply ignored. If I quote or say the name of Chesterton, or speak about public schools, or about Russia - things that I really do know more than most about, I get rebuffed - or ignored. On those things, I think I have really important or valuable things to communicate, things that Orthodox Christians in particular could appreciate. There is irony in that we do recognize the need to accept authority. But if I say "Russia", or "public schools", or Chesterton", people shut down and turn me off. And I'm not looking for the psychological reasons for that; I just want to establish the fact and that it cannot be that the problem is 100% in me.

For me, what it comes down to is, are these forums mere vanity? Yes, I am lonely for English, for talking to my fellow countrymen. But small talk is of no interest - I want to talk about what is important. But if on the few things I DO know a good deal about nobody listens - or I get little to no positive reaction, which amounts to the same thing, then what's the point?

I admit that I have things to learn. I try to avoid being a pompous know-it-all ass. I know that, regarding most things, I'm just another jerk. When other people speak on what I know to be their fields of expertise, I believe in shutting up and listening. But what I've experienced, even here, in the best, the politest and most considerate forum I've ever seen, in regards to what I do know, is that people communicate small talk fine, but outside of the teachings of the Church, we don't listen to or acknowledge authority.

I'm really up against leaving forums in general because of this. Unless we can listen to and learn from each other, then all if this is a waste of time. And we have less time than we generally think.

 

[Mariya116]

You're not likely to find understanding at a forum any more than in real life communication. I have recently left a Russian forum where I used to be quite active, and do not feel that I lost anything. I've come and gone from several forums, and do not feel that I lost anything. I enjoyed them at the time, I learned something at the time, but I grew out of them. The only thing is, sometimes you meet people that become your friends, that has happened to me fortunately.

Forums get addictive, but let's not forget - we don't even know who we're talking to, and if we would talk to them in real life.

 

[buzuxi02]

I for one enjoy your posts. Even has peaked my interest in reading Chesterton, someone i wouldnt of considered reading before.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Best of luck, Rus.

 

[truthseeker32]

I had no idea you were older. For some reason I had always assumed you were in the 18-24 camp.

 

[MrJim]

Rus, seriously, stop thinking about what people think about you and how they should think about you, and frankly stop thinking about you. One thing l've learned here is that I post more for the lurkers and visitors (I visit forums where I never post; just read and learn and never interact--may be for an opinion or review or tech info, but still I'm a stranger the poster will never know)~less for responses and attempts to change people. It sounds as though your pride is wounded and you don't feel appreciated...and maybe if you were one of my baptist friends I would say something a bit different but you're Orthodox dude~you know that this isn't supposed to be about you, you know that pride isn't something you supposed to be feeding on. I do not respond to a lot of posts around here simply because they are more complex than what I can understand, or I know so little that I don't know enough to respond or have enough interest--and I expect that I'm not alone. Don't mistake those of us ignorant ones as though we are "ignoring" you or disrespecting you...you're part of the family here and we love you and hope you stay--maybe due for a fast from posting though? (considering it myself).

 

[truefiction1]

Rus, have you ever considered utilizing your skill in analytical thinking and writing, clearly evidenced in many of your forum posts, in a venue that will enable it to be more effective? I think that forums are a great place to gather information and varying perspectives on important issues, but let's face it: most posters are probably more interested in having their voices being heard, rather than hearing the voices of others. People who are genuinely interested in learning, in improving their understandings of things, usually turn to books or written articles.

Perhaps you might consider stepping up your studying efforts by reading a lot (to gain clear knowledge and perspective) and writing a lot (to help you refine this knowledge and these perspectives) on the topics you feel called to address.

A well written essay or article, published online or in a Christian journal, magazine, etc. will likely be paid much greater attention to.

 

[RKO]

In my experience, people either discount or dismiss things they are not yet capable of understanding. Or at least the ignore it.

Some people work to understand these difficult things, but that understanding comes gradually. some aare faster tha others. But still we find ourselves skipping over the difficult parts. Or they grasp it in their short term memory but don't work on it long enough or it to be committed long term. (I passed several calculus classes in HS and college and couldn't tell you the first thing about it today.)

I say that to say this: Your posts challenge my thinking every time I read them. You are far more advanced in your thinking in these matters than I'll ever be, even though I work to get closer.

Perhaps you are experiencing some people like me, who don't absorb everything you say, so therefore may not respond appropriately or even respond negatively. (I hope I haven't. Don't think I have...) Certainly there are many here on your level who do understand and either agree or disagree, but it's with full understanding and in most cases, all due respect.

If that is the case, you should be patient with us, even when we are argumentative. If it's personal, that's one thing that none of us should have to tolerate, but forgive me for being thick. So I say, stick around...

 

[inconsequential]

I've thoroughly enjoyed the little bit of Chesterton I've read and I examine my thoughts on public education and Russia more closely because of your posts. I rarely respond because I have so little experience in those areas. It is the small nuggets on depression and despair that have benefitted me the most, very possibly saving my life.

If you feel it is best for your salvation to leave then I support your decision 100% though you will be missed. Whatever your decision, know that you are loved and appreciated here. I hope you don't go but I can understand why you might.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Rus, I'm 58 so I may be the oldest poster on here - not sure - and I understand your points. I don't know enough to contribute to the conversation, but I enjoy your posts as well as MKJ's.

I would miss you if you left. You said that you are not interested in small talk, but perhaps you would still consider fellowship with us worthwhile.

May God bless you in your decision.

Mary

 

[Fotina]

Dearest in Christ Rusmeister,

Your posts on right thinking, education, Orthodoxy, an American in Orthodox Russia, and much more are insightful, interesting and do make a difference. But it may not be for you to know how much, but the Lord knows. Many years to you and your family!

 

[Macarius]

Rus,

I ask this because, specifically, I'm in that younger camp and I know we've spar-ed over many and sundry ideas these recent years: do you think that disagreement amounts to not listening or engaging? I post long, detailed replies to what you write because I know you actually care about these ideas and because I'm actually engaged (e.g. reading in full and seriously considering) what you write; it is a sign of respect (not the opposite).

I don't know that, outside of family or teaching, one will ever find an occasion where "being listened to" amounts to "people accepting what you say on ethos" - on an internet forum, everyone has equal status; ethos isn't the means of persuasion. If we don't engage one another on the levels of pathos and logos, then we have nothing more to say. I engage with you on the logos level because I enjoy our conversations, I learn from them (though I often still disagree with you), and because I know you're a strong enough thinker to handle disagreement while understanding that, at a fundamental level, we're on the same side (that of Christ and His Church).

Anyhow, I pray and hope you have not felt disrespected or ignored by me, as the truth could not be more opposite of that. I enjoy engaging with you when I feel competent to do so, and have the utmost respect for you even when I don't, ultimately, agree. Forgive me if I've miscommunicated.

In Christ,
Macarius

 

[rusmeister]

Rus, seriously, stop thinking about what people think about you and how they should think about you, and frankly stop thinking about you. One thing l've learned here is that I post more for the lurkers and visitors (I visit forums where I never post; just read and learn and never interact--may be for an opinion or review or tech info, but still I'm a stranger the poster will never know)~less for responses and attempts to change people. It sounds as though your pride is wounded and you don't feel appreciated...and maybe if you were one of my baptist friends I would say something a bit different but you're Orthodox dude~you know that this isn't supposed to be about you, you know that pride isn't something you supposed to be feeding on. I do not respond to a lot of posts around here simply because they are more complex than what I can understand, or I know so little that I don't know enough to respond or have enough interest--and I expect that I'm not alone. Don't mistake those of us ignorant ones as though we are "ignoring" you or disrespecting you...you're part of the family here and we love you and hope you stay--maybe due for a fast from posting though? (considering it myself).

Thanks, Mr Jim,
Don't mean for it to sound drama queen-ish. That's why I'm not just up and leaving - my spiritual life has been down for a long time and I'm trying to figure what to cut out. At the same time, I want to have some sort of intellectual life. I was on several forums - a big CS Lewis forum, a SR Donaldson forum, an ESL teacher's forum, which I got different things out of. Now all history. I guess the closest to what I wanted was the Lewis forum, though it was heterodox - a relatively good combination of intellectualism and faith (and unbelief) - but the site mgr was a pluralist agnostic who enjoyed Lewis and he eventually shut the site down.

Here... it's great that most people are Orthodox - it's not the label, it really is the people who accept that worldview and the Church as an authority with the power to correct us when we are wrong. And there are a few who seem to understand what I try to say on things I DO understand - at least, sometimes. But a lot of folk get all the wrong impressions, especially arrogance, and it's not only here. It seems to be a rule that a dead certainty of being right cannot be seen as being accompanied by humility; as if one must express doubt (like I think Fr Tom Hopko does) about what one is certain about. It REALLY drags me down and does not lift me up. And if others are dragged down by things I say, then I'm writing the wrong things to the wrong people.

And finally, there is the question - is it all just vanity? If people really don't hear each other, or rather, unless people really mutually hear each other, that's what it is. So it doesn't have to be vanity, but there is certainly significant danger of that. So I don't want to just preach what I have to say for lurkers. If the people who do respond show me they don't understand, and that we talk past each other, then I might as well just post my own thoughts on my own blog. Which maybe five or six people would read. Although for all I know that could be the main purpose of my existence - to have a small, unsung and unknown role in the formation of the next CS Lewis or Seraphim Rose... (vanity alert! )

 

[Protoevangel]

Rus, you are one of the few posters here of whom I really look forward to reading their posts on any given subject.

At least for me, silence dosen't mean that I'm ignoring you... Often it means that I am trying to process what's been said, that I simply don't have anything productive to add, or that I can't put words to whatever questions I might have.

If people can't accept what you are telling them, that does not mean that it does not affect them is a manner that will be fruitful later. I see you planting a lot of good seeds here Rus. Not all of them land in the thorns or on the road.

 

[Fotina]

Although for all I know that could be the main purpose of my existence..

by Anastasia Theodoridis

What do You Want to be When You Grow Up?

Once I told my priest I never had deciphered God’s Plan for My Life - to which, I received his usual who-do-you-think-you-are? kind of answer. Not everybody can be a hero, he pointed out; not everybody can lead an illustrious life brimming with world-shaking accomplishments. Just take care of your home and your husband, he advised. Maybe that’s “all” you are called to do, he said. But if and when God deems you have done this well enough, He may add something else, in small increments.

But Sarah in Indiana has another answer. She left it in my comment box when I urged people to read Chloe’s post, “Jesus Does NOT Have a Wonderful Plan for Your Life”. Sarah passed along what she had heard in that week's sermon, that Jesus IS God’s wonderful plan for your life.

So, so true! In Romans 8:29, St. Paul writes, “whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son…”

In Ephesians, the Apostle prays, “that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. (Eph. 3: 16-19)

“To be filled with all the fullness of God;” or in other words, be conformed to the image of the Son; or in Orthodox parlance, to be deified: this is the wonderful plan for each of us. This is our calling, and it is the most glorious imaginable one.

And that’s a blessed comfort for people like me who never did figure out what we wanted to be when we grew up. This is what every single one of us really, most truly, most deeply wants, the vocation for which we were all created. That's what our lives are all about.

Yes, THAT is what I want to be someday when I grow up.​

 

[rusmeister]

Rus,

I ask this because, specifically, I'm in that younger camp and I know we've spar-ed over many and sundry ideas these recent years: do you think that disagreement amounts to not listening or engaging? I post long, detailed replies to what you write because I know you actually care about these ideas and because I'm actually engaged (e.g. reading in full and seriously considering) what you write; it is a sign of respect (not the opposite).

I don't know that, outside of family or teaching, one will ever find an occasion where "being listened to" amounts to "people accepting what you say on ethos" - on an internet forum, everyone has equal status; ethos isn't the means of persuasion. If we don't engage one another on the levels of pathos and logos, then we have nothing more to say. I engage with you on the logos level because I enjoy our conversations, I learn from them (though I often still disagree with you), and because I know you're a strong enough thinker to handle disagreement while understanding that, at a fundamental level, we're on the same side (that of Christ and His Church).

Anyhow, I pray and hope you have not felt disrespected or ignored by me, as the truth could not be more opposite of that. I enjoy engaging with you when I feel competent to do so, and have the utmost respect for you even when I don't, ultimately, agree. Forgive me if I've miscommunicated.

In Christ,
Macarius

Hey, Mac,
Absolutely not. I get that you are one of those who engages with what I say. "Engage" means "take the idea and think about it, agree or disagree".
People like Josh and Proto do, too. I guess part of it is that I have gotten definite feedback from people who do not understand me (although they rarely see it as not understanding me) and almost nothing from people who do - with the named exceptions, and a couple of others. Above all, the thing that has totally baffled me is a seeming refusal to engage the ideas by most. If I link or post to two or three paragraphs, what is so hard about reading it? What exactly is "inaccessible"? But as I see it, few even try to understand - in a place where it seems to me that Orthodox Christians (and imo converts tend to be particularly intelligent) would be eager to do so, to discover more and better understandings that shore up the faith we have accepted and make sense of the world in light of that faith.

Anyway, what's wrong with the world is me (fans of the big fat man will get that one), so I'm willing to take correction if it's across the board and am not at all certain that I must leave - thus the question mark.

One problem is that I feel that I can hardly talk to my overloaded priest - except for brief hurried whispers in confession with a line of 25 or more people behind me. The situation here is vastly different from the typical one in America (where, as I understand it, typical congregations are 50 people or less to one priest, and if there are more, there are usually more priests).

Anyway, I hope no one has taken offense from anything I've said here.

 

[Dorothea]

I feel the same as others. I contribute what little I can in your threads, Rus. I don't know enough to go further. I personally enjoy your posts. I may not understand all of them, but I respect what you say. Much of what you say is very true. I just have nothing to add much of the time.

 

[Dorothea]

Rus, you are one of the few posters here of whom I really look forward to reading their posts on any given subject.

At least for me, silence dosen't mean that I'm ignoring you... Often it means that I am trying to process what's been said, that I simply don't have anything productive to add, or that I can't put words to whatever questions I might have.

If people can't accept what you are telling them, that does not mean that it does not affect them is a manner that will be fruitful later. I see you planting a lot of good seeds here Rus. Not all of them land in the thorns or on the road.

I agree!

 

[Macarius]

 

[Joshua G.]

We all want to be understood.
What I've been finding, as I get older and older, is that fewer and fewer people understand me. I imagine that to be the common lot of older folk. When one approaches fifty, his or her experience (as it seems to me) has, as a rule, grown deep enough that explaining the things learned to others becomes more and more difficult, requiring ever more context. And we can certainly see this in comparison by age with people significantly younger than ourselves, and many of us have that experience in explaining things to children. With young children, it's generally not a big problem, though, because they know us, trust us, and are inclined to faith (one of the things relevant to Christ speaking of becoming as children).

But when we deal with adults, we encounter other experience, and skepticism, and we measure what they say against our own experience, naturally enough, as they do with what we say. And I think that can be a problem, a thing that keeps us from receiving truth, as well as keeping out falsehood. For we can miss truth because we hear something strange that doesn't "jive" with our experience, and the failure may be on the part of the speaker, an inability to deliver context or clarity (something I've been struggling with ever since I've felt I have something to say), but it can also be in the ears that hear. I think we can definitely recognize this if we've ever tried to convey truth to teenagers (something that requires a special kind of wisdom I wish I had more of). The parent knows something, is trying to convey it to the teenager, and the teenager, in his own desire to be knowledgeable and assert himself, rejects it.

Is age a factor? I think so, and I think it a particular error of the West to discount the experience of age. But it is not that older people are automatically wiser or smarter (the "smarts", in particular, may belong to the younger one), just that, in our general attitude of democracy, we extend the idea of equality to things that it is not proper to.

Anyway, it's not age, but the context of experience that I'm driving at here. A thirty-five year-old who spent ten years in a prison camp can blow away a fifty year-old without analogous experience on the subject of being imprisoned (I myself, thankfully, have only a few hours of that unhappy experience). I think anyone with actual and extensive experience of that would be more than a little miffed if they tried to share that experience on a forum like this and found their views treated as of merely the same value as everyone else's (which is often not much), and were told off by other people with opinions.

There are a few things here where I find myself in that situation. I imagine I'm not the only one, it must be that others have special experience in something, yet go ignored or are belittled by those without similar experience on
something. We live in a world that has become pluralistic and global, where the reigning slogan is "Have your say!" and yet, with all of this freedom of speech, we can hardly hear anyone else. We are actively encouraged to have opinions on everything, no matter what our basis in knowledge or experience.

There are a lot of things that I don't know much about, where I am just "Dr Stupid", and I periodically say so when I do have a comment outside of my special experience. But I find it almost impossible to talk about the few things I really DO know something about. When I speak about them, as someone who really has more of that experience and knowledge, I rarely get any reaction but skepticism or am simply ignored. If I quote or say the name of Chesterton, or speak about public schools, or about Russia - things that I really do know more than most about, I get rebuffed - or ignored. On those things, I think I have really important or valuable things to communicate, things that Orthodox Christians in particular could appreciate. There is irony in that we do recognize the need to accept authority. But if I say "Russia", or "public schools", or Chesterton", people shut down and turn me off. And I'm not looking for the psychological reasons for that; I just want to establish the fact and that it cannot be that the problem is 100% in me.

For me, what it comes down to is, are these forums mere vanity? Yes, I am lonely for English, for talking to my fellow countrymen. But small talk is of no interest - I want to talk about what is important. But if on the few things I DO know a good deal about nobody listens - or I get little to no positive reaction, which amounts to the same thing, then what's the point?

I admit that I have things to learn. I try to avoid being a pompous know-it-all ass. I know that, regarding most things, I'm just another jerk. When other people speak on what I know to be their fields of expertise, I believe in shutting up and listening. But what I've experienced, even here, in the best, the politest and most considerate forum I've ever seen, in regards to what I do know, is that people communicate small talk fine, but outside of the teachings of the Church, we don't listen to or acknowledge authority.

I'm really up against leaving forums in general because of this. Unless we can listen to and learn from each other, then all if this is a waste of time. And we have less time than we generally think.

Rus,

I have found many of your posts to have intersting and thoughtful points. You have convinced me to look at Chesterton and question the world around me. Enough of the nice stuff.

The problem is that you seem to not see that even 1% of the problem is you.

You say that you attempt to communicate, but the thing about forums is that they are places for discussions. You are often like a walking wikipedia: it goes one way. No one can ever discuss anything with you because you are a know-it-all. Yes, you have more eperirence in Public Education than I do. Can I speak in 15 years when I have more do I have to wait? Am I the master then and must you shut up and just listen to me and nod you head saying "well, time does make YOU the expert and I am now the schlupp" or does my short experience in a Public School system give me some room to speak? If what you says flies in the face of what I have learned from a person who IS Russian (unlike you) do I still have to say "well, who am I to question the almight Rus? He is the expert afterall." And again, you don't seem to get it but as for Chesterton it is not that ppl are against Chesterton. They just are sick of hearing his name all of the time. But you put on your woeisme outfit and act like you are a big victim. If you know anything about public school weaknesses it is that we are very effective in teaching kids how to be victims. You play the card great.

If you want to leave, fine. leave. I do care because I think you have made me think about things but thinking takes time. I am never going to say "well, Rus said so I won't question it. But no one is standing in your way. If you leave it ONLY says something (good or bad) about you, not TAW.

Don't take this as ME telling you to leave. I don't want you to leave, but I don't want you to stay if we are just a thorn in your side.

Here's the thing. You may say something that is true, butyou need to realize that just as it took you time to accept that truth (unless you are a thoughtless robot) it takes other people time. And part of that is questioning it. If you make point A and it flies in the face of what I know to be true, you better expect that I am going to contradict you, oh great one. If I didn't I would jsut say "yeah, good point, you know better" and go off on my own and not give your idea (or chesterton's, not that it matters to always point that out) a second thought. That is called discussion.

Also, you are not my father... you are not my priest. You are not the authority figure you make yoruself out to be. To be listened to, you need to learn how to listne. And you don't show any any evidence (hardly ever) of listening to others. Listening doesn't mean you agree. It means you respect. And don't expect that in the end you are going to win. The more revolutionary your thoughts, the less likely it is you are going to do something as childishly hoped for as convince someone within a thread.

And one more thing. You gave a clip once where this guy who represented the Chestertonian interrupted small talk and then said "My friend died" and then someone sai "I'm sorry" and he said "why are you sorry". How pedantic of that a-hole. Look death is something that happens but that chestertonian was 100% focused on himself and he knew that in saying that he was going to get that reaction. He also knew that the man wasn't apologizing but using sorry to say "I regret your friend had to die" because death is a sad thing. We beleive that as ORthodox Christians so saying sorry is totally fine.

Here's my beef. You see yourself in that guy. But what you fail to realize is that he was pompous and although he may have ha intelligent remarks, that doesn't mean he was wise. I think CHesterton would have rolled over his grave at seeing that... in part because the twerp was only 23 years old and has no right to treat other people like idiots.

Honestly, I'm not mad at you. But since you don't like small talk or cushioning things, here it all is.

This is about you. Not us. I like you here despite your flaws. We all have them. My vote is that you have offered no good reason as to why we have made this place a place you should not return to. My vote is that you should stay and I would be sorry to see you go (I don't say that about everyone) but the choice is yours and the only person that can change what you view as a problem is you.

Josh