Rules adjustment

[Alithis]

I see what you mean ... I changed the wording to this ...

Baptism however may be discussed as a sign of obedience to Christ.

.........

 

[Edial]

Isn't say, not committing adultery seen as obedience? Honouring your parents?

Not necessarily.

Obedience is something you would not normally do.

If someone honor his parents naturally, he is not obedient.
He is just a good boy.
Something like the rich young man was.

 

[Biblicist]

Well, we can either do thread cleanups or close and start again.

I would need the list of threads and I take a look at it.

PM me the list.

For me, I would say that we need to be careful with moderating views on water baptism. If they go a bit over the top then I think an advisory PM should suffice.

 

[Edial]

Ephesians mentions one baptism.

Eph 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism , KJV

Guess what?

It is not by water.

Exactly, ... that is why everyone needs to become a Lutheran and get baptized as infants. Two in one.

 

[Optimax]

Exactly, ... that is why everyone needs to become a Lutheran and get baptized as infants. Two in one.

 

[Edial]

For me, I would say that we need to be careful with moderating views on water baptism. If they go a bit over the top then I think an advisory PM should suffice.

Oh, I am totally against reporting and penalizing people.
I would rather we resolve it like adults.

If we cannot, well ...

 

[Svt4Him]

Mmmm...could that maybe come under "works", where some people simply find it too hard to work at not being unfaithful.

Haha, true. But how often does one get baptized?

 

[Alithis]

Exactly, ... that is why everyone needs to become a Lutheran and get baptized as infants. Two in one.

lol .. dont even go there

 

[Alithis]

Even though my remark was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, as CF adheres to the Nicene Creed, then I guess that this would be with the original 325AD edition and not with the revised 381AD update which states:

"In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen".​

Does this mean that CF are saying that water baptism is necessary for salvation? I know, I know, I will now have to go and “light another candle” - I'm starting to quickly run out of them.

go stand in the corner and dont be cheeky ..

 

[Edial]

lol .. dont even go there

 

[geetrue]

Exactly, ... that is why everyone needs to become a Lutheran and get baptized as infants. Two in one.

Now Ed is that just plain bottled water or is that Holy water from the Catholic church next door.

In San Diego they have a Catholic church right next door to a Lutheran Church, honest injun.

 

[murjahel]

Well, we can either do thread cleanups or close and start again.

I would need the list of threads and I take a look at it.

PM me the list.

okay, I will get a list of the threads... several are already closed, several more are open, one teaching one needs reclosed.

I may suggest that it be moved to a debate forum, where if any want to argue it, they can...

Some come to this forum, seeking what is 'Pentecost' really all about... if that 'water baptism' being mandatory idea discourages, or injures them, it is bad for the whole movement...

So, move to a different forum, or delete them, are both better than to just 'close' the thread and leave it still readable...

 

[ByTheSpirit]

^^^ he's clearly referencing my much disputed water baptism teaching thread... you can close it Ed that's fine. I can just restart it as a discussion thread. Whichever is decided.

I would like to know why only threads that some disagree with are closed or recommended for closing. Seems like a relative few around here have veto power on anything that happens and the rest of us are at their mercy.

Eh, oh well, as stated I can just start a new one if my thread is closed. No hard feelings, just the pursuit of truth

 

[ByTheSpirit]

You made mention of the Nicene Creed back in your recent thread on baptism which absolutely none of us (I mean absolutely zilch) chose to respond to. Of course we can also add in the dreaded Filioque addition which saw the separation of the Eastern and Western Churches.

Creeds - they are complicated things that often seem to represent a young childs attempt at setting up a minefield.

yeah, I think the vast majority here either have me on ignore or just ignore my threads as I'm a nuisence to some... I did mention the Nicene Creed and it's particular usage of "One baptism for the forgiveness of sins"... But as you pointed out, no one wanted to comment on it...

It's a shame, I can only dread to imagine how some may be treated who come here initially and ask a sincere question wanting to learn and are met with the same hostility I was. Actually I've seen a few have that happen to them and it's a shame.

 

[murjahel]

I could be wrong, and I am more than happy to be corrected

Well, here is your correction then...
from one you deemed 'unscholarly'... and a 'thorn' in Pentecost...

Romans 6:3-5 (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Paul, in those few verses, speaks of the subject of ‘baptism’, and makes it clear that this is not ‘water baptism’ of which he speaks.

Water baptism is a symbolic illustration of real baptism.

The ‘baptism into death, is our experience of salvation by grace, where in unmerited favor, His death for sin became our death for sin.

We, receive that baptism in the moment of salvation. It is not dependent on the pictorial illustration of being immersed in water, risen out of it, depicting what happened at salvation, to make us saved.

Water baptism is an illustration of what salvation is, it is not salvation in the observance of it.

When we surrender our wills, and give all to Him, then the ‘will of Christ’ is to live in our hearts, and our will is dead, buried with Christ. We are risen then to new life, with a born again experience, becoming a new creation in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:3 (KJV)
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

The ‘baptism into His death, means we do not count our own former aims and hopes as still being alive, we are new creations in Christ Jesus, because of the baptism of death into this new life.

2 Corinthians 5:16-19 (KJV)
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, Who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The outward, physical baptism symbolized the death of our earthly, sinful nature, buried in Christ’s death, risen with Him spiritually into new life.

The water baptism is merely symbolic representation of the baptism into Christ’s death.

John the Baptist’s baptism was ‘unto repentance’, bringing the people into harmony with the Mosaic law, but Jesus Who knew no sin, was not baptized unto repentance, for He had no sin. His baptism was a consecration to do the Father’s will, and renounce all human will. So, at the beginning of His ministry, Jesus was baptized by John. Jesus was 30 years old at the time, and had lived those 30 years righteous and sinless. Jesus set an example, for His disciples, for us, that we, after salvation need a testimonial baptism in water, showing what has happened to bring us to sinless righteousness in Christ. It is an illustration of what already happened, and it is a dedication to bear this new risen life in ministering the good news of salvation to the world. Water baptism is a demonstration, witness, illustration, of what has already happened in our heart.

Luke 12:50 (KJV)
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Jesus has a baptism for us to be baptized with. It is not ‘water baptism’, but it is a ‘death baptism’ as we are immersed into Christ’s body, experiencing new life in Him. Jesus had His own bloody baptism into death to do, for He had already been ‘baptized into water’, but He speaks here of a baptism yet to come for Him. It is that baptism we experience with Him in salvation, wherein we accept His baptism into death as our baptism.

At 30, Jesus was baptized into water, in dedication to His ministry. At 33 years of age, He was baptized into death, and it is that ‘baptism’ we also have at our salvation, wherein His ‘baptism into death’ brings the remission of sins for us.

Jesus’ baptism was finished on the cross, and finished making a way of salvation, when Jesus uttered:
John 19:30 (KJV)
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

 

[Edial]

Now Ed is that just plain bottled water or is that Holy water from the Catholic church next door.

In San Diego they have a Catholic church right next door to a Lutheran Church, honest injun.

Oh, every denomination wants to be next door to us .. they just do not want to admit it ...

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well, here is your correction then...
from one you deemed 'unscholarly'... and a 'thorn' in Pentecost...

Romans 6:3-5 (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Paul, in those few verses, speaks of the subject of ‘baptism’, and makes it clear that this is not ‘water baptism’ of which he speaks.

Water baptism is a symbolic illustration of real baptism.

The ‘baptism into death, is our experience of salvation by grace, where in unmerited favor, His death for sin became our death for sin.

We, receive that baptism in the moment of salvation. It is not dependent on the pictorial illustration of being immersed in water, risen out of it, depicting what happened at salvation, to make us saved.

Water baptism is an illustration of what salvation is, it is not salvation in the observance of it.

When we surrender our wills, and give all to Him, then the ‘will of Christ’ is to live in our hearts, and our will is dead, buried with Christ. We are risen then to new life, with a born again experience, becoming a new creation in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:3 (KJV)
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

The ‘baptism into His death, means we do not count our own former aims and hopes as still being alive, we are new creations in Christ Jesus, because of the baptism of death into this new life.

2 Corinthians 5:16-19 (KJV)
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, Who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The outward, physical baptism symbolized the death of our earthly, sinful nature, buried in Christ’s death, risen with Him spiritually into new life.

The water baptism is merely symbolic representation of the baptism into Christ’s death.

John the Baptist’s baptism was ‘unto repentance’, bringing the people into harmony with the Mosaic law, but Jesus Who knew no sin, was not baptized unto repentance, for He had no sin. His baptism was a consecration to do the Father’s will, and renounce all human will. So, at the beginning of His ministry, Jesus was baptized by John. Jesus was 30 years old at the time, and had lived those 30 years righteous and sinless. Jesus set an example, for His disciples, for us, that we, after salvation need a testimonial baptism in water, showing what has happened to bring us to sinless righteousness in Christ. It is an illustration of what already happened, and it is a dedication to bear this new risen life in ministering the good news of salvation to the world. Water baptism is a demonstration, witness, illustration, of what has already happened in our heart.

Luke 12:50 (KJV)
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Jesus has a baptism for us to be baptized with. It is not ‘water baptism’, but it is a ‘death baptism’ as we are immersed into Christ’s body, experiencing new life in Him. Jesus had His own bloody baptism into death to do, for He had already been ‘baptized into water’, but He speaks here of a baptism yet to come for Him. It is that baptism we experience with Him in salvation, wherein we accept His baptism into death as our baptism.

At 30, Jesus was baptized into water, in dedication to His ministry. At 33 years of age, He was baptized into death, and it is that ‘baptism’ we also have at our salvation, wherein His ‘baptism into death’ brings the remission of sins for us.

Jesus’ baptism was finished on the cross, and finished making a way of salvation, when Jesus uttered:
John 19:30 (KJV)
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Very respectfully this is not correct... besides it misses the greater point that water baptism is commanded to be done but this thread is not the place for that discussion... care to join my peanut gallery thread to discuss it? seriously

 

[murjahel]

The rule defines what a thread can and cannot say... a thread is closed not at my veto, but at the disobedience to the rule on teaching that water baptism is mandatory for salvation...

this a quote still in an open thread, that this person above says if closed he will start another thread and say the same things... is that going to be allowed, Edial??

read what he said there:

We have seen from other passages that faith must accompany baptism for baptism to be effective:

1 Peter 3:21 English Standard Version (ESV)

21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Let's break down this last verse from Peter to gain a better understanding of what he is writing to us. You see if you remove the portions contained within the commas (which are added only to give a brief explanation) we get this:

Baptism... now saves you... through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It is through your faith in Jesus as the Son of God (Romans 1:4) that we are saved in baptism. This is what Jesus was saying in Mark 16:16 (quoted above). Those who BELIEVE & are BAPTIZED will be saved...

But what about the other half of the scripture, doesn't that prove only belief is necessary?

Not quite. You see, if someone doesn't believe then nothing can save them. Baptism alone doesn't save you. That is why Jesus left baptism out of that last half the equation.

Also, what does the scripture say is necessary? Let's not focus on what is not, but what Jesus says is.

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved"

Again, Jesus says salvation comes to those who:

1) Believe
&
2) are baptized.
That is the scripture.​

Those statements break the rule we are discussing... Why are we allowing blatant rebellion against it, now... and why has this above quote not been deleted with the rest of his supportive teachings trying to prove this errant idea?

The baptism that saves, mentioned by Peter, is the spiritual baptism that occurs at salvation. The water baptism is the symbolic testimony to what happened at salvation to be portrayed for a witness, not the actual saving feature, but a representation of it.

 

[Edial]

^^^ he's clearly referencing my much disputed water baptism teaching thread... you can close it Ed that's fine. I can just restart it as a discussion thread. Whichever is decided.

I would like to know why only threads that some disagree with are closed or recommended for closing. Seems like a relative few around here have veto power on anything that happens and the rest of us are at their mercy.

Eh, oh well, as stated I can just start a new one if my thread is closed. No hard feelings, just the pursuit of truth

I can assure you we do not show favoritism just to please certain individuals ... even Lutherans.

We are Christian volunteers, even at this top range of CF.
Impartiality is our per-requisite.

You have received a personal PM from me as well as other people in order to balance this thing out.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I can assure you we do not show favoritism just to please certain individuals ... even Lutherans.

We are Christian volunteers, even at this top range of CF.
Impartiality is our per-requisite.

You have received a personal PM from me as well as other people in order to balance this thing out.

It's okay... Perception is not always reality. You all are doing a good job with such a diverse group.