Rules adjustment

[ByTheSpirit]

then that is like you can discuss the verse 'Rejoice and be exceedingly glad (Mt 4) as a matter of obedience or disobedience to the command of Christ.. but one cannot thereby say that if one is not rejoicing they are disobeying Christ and not saved... Right?

Surely we should obey Christ's commands, all of them, but we are not anyone's judge.. only Jesus is the Judge...
so... if someone is too intimidated to be publicly immersed, or is fearful of drowning, or is in a hospital dying, etc... no one is going to say they have disobeyed a command that kept them from going to heaven?

What if we read in the Bible that those who follow their flesh can not inherit the Kingdom of God, even if they had already believed? It says that you know...

Paul didn't write Galatians to those outside the faith, but inside it.

Or what about this from the mouth of God the Father himself:

Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The cowardly will be cast into the lake of fire... In context, this verse is talking about those who were supposed to be believers...

 

[ByTheSpirit]

You should actively preach obedience to Christ's commands. This "I'm not their judge" is a simple way of saying "I don't want to offend anybody". The Bible has already stated the rules for entrance into Heaven, we are not judging people by telling them if they do not obey they will be condemned. The scriptures say that already...

Joh 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

We should be allowed to discuss such topics without getting our feathers ruffled. I'm not calling anyone's salvation into question by telling them Jesus expects them to obey him or they face consequences for disobedience. That is the heart of them calling him Lord, which without such a confession no one can enter heaven.

 

[murjahel]

Your comment that we can "...discuss it as a matter of obedience or disobedience to the command of Christ, but not as a matter of salvation" is probably a good way to go about things.

.

Yes... water baptism is wonderful to discuss... and as long as it is not said, not implied, not argued that one is not saved if they have not done so... then the discussions:
of its goodness,
of its testimonial nature,
of its many modes of observing it,
of its blessings spiritually of having done so,
... is fine...

So, if we agree, let's go on and get back to the fellowship in friendship!

 

[Edial]

then that is like you can discuss the verse 'Rejoice and be exceedingly glad (Mt 4) as a matter of obedience or disobedience to the command of Christ.. but one cannot thereby say that if one is not rejoicing they are disobeying Christ and not saved... Right?

Surely we should obey Christ's commands, all of them, but we are not anyone's judge.. only Jesus is the Judge...
so... if someone is too intimidated to be publicly immersed, or is fearful of drowning, or is in a hospital dying, etc... no one is going to say they have disobeyed a command that kept them from going to heaven?

I cannot tell someone you are not saved because you have disobeyed Christ's command or because you were not baptized.

I cannot tell someone who has a stage fright or in the hospital you have disobeyed command of Christ and that in itself is a mortal sin.

 

[Biblicist]

Yes... water baptism is wonderful to discuss... and as long as it is not said, not implied, not argued that one is not saved if they have not done so... then the discussions:
of its goodness,
of its testimonial nature,
of its many modes of observing it,
of its blessings spiritually of having done so,
... is fine...

So, if we agree, let's go on and get back to the fellowship in friendship!

Maybe it's just me, but I'm sort of surprised that the issue even went to moderation. Water baptism has been a major point of discussion for decades so I tend to be a bit surprised when it becomes such an administrative issue.

I wonder . . . does CF expect that all their mods etc are water baptised - I know, I'm a bad boy, I will have to go away and "light a candle"!!

 

[murjahel]

Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The cowardly will be cast into the lake of fire... In context, this verse is talking about those who were supposed to be believers...

No.. those were not 'believers'... in fact one of the traits of those is 'unbelieving'... to put them in the class with those who are not water baptized after repenting and believing is absurd.

Now, let's finish this... let Edail make the rule change and go on... this will be a horrible and upsetting argument with features like the above quote to have to challenge...

 

[mourningdove~]

It is very Arminian ...
to think that a single act of disobedience towards a command of Christ is 'a sign' that one is not saved.

It is very Arminian ...
to think that a single act of disobedience will send a Christian to hell.

This forum is not a purely Arminian forum.
Therefore, I do not believe Arminian beliefs should be imposed on all of us here.

Water baptism 'may be' a sign that one is saved; but it also may not be.

 

[Edial]

What if we read in the Bible that those who follow their flesh can not inherit the Kingdom of God, even if they had already believed? It says that you know...

Paul didn't write Galatians to those outside the faith, but inside it.

Or what about this from the mouth of God the Father himself:

Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The cowardly will be cast into the lake of fire... In context, this verse is talking about those who were supposed to be believers...

This is an OSAS/OSNAS debate, which is fine.

However, to say if one is not saved because s/he is refusing to be baptized, we should not do so.
We MAY however say, that individual is in disobedience to Christ.

The verses you mentioned list habitual sins an individual participates in willingly.
This has nothing to do with Baptism which is a singular event.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I cannot tell someone you are not saved because you have disobeyed Christ's command or because you were not baptized.

I cannot tell someone who has a stage fright or in the hospital you have disobeyed command of Christ and that in itself is a mortal sin.

If someone has a fear of such things, they should be taught the importance of it and seek deliverance from such fear that prohibits them from obeying. You are correct, no need to go outside our bounds and judge them. If someone said they had stage fright for example, we should actively seek to educate them on the importance of baptism and pray over them.

I just fear taking such a stance encourages people to use that as an excuse to not get baptized.

 

[Edial]

It is very Arminian ...
to think that a single act of disobedience towards a command of Christ is 'a sign' that one is not saved.

It is very Arminian ...
to think that a single act of disobedience will send a Christian to hell.

This forum is not a purely Arminian forum.
Therefore, I do not believe Arminian beliefs should be imposed on all of us here.

Water baptism 'may be' a sign that one is saved; but it also may not be.

That is correct.

 

[Biblicist]

I cannot tell someone you are not saved because you have disobeyed Christ's command or because you were not baptized.

I cannot tell someone who has a stage fright or in the hospital you have disobeyed command of Christ and that in itself is a mortal sin.

But you can certainly say that many (if not most) denominations, be they Pentecostal, Evangelical, Reformed that they will rightfully demand that every applicant for membership is water baptised and that they will also require this for any senior leadership role.

When appropriate, once a new converts questions become a bit more specific, we can also advise them that the broader church will tend to view someone's rejection as being a sign of their inner rebellion or that their commitment to the Lord falls somewhat short.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

This is an OSAS/OSNAS debate, which is fine.

However, to say if one is not saved because s/he is refusing to be baptized, we should not do so.
We MAY however say, that individual is in disobedience to Christ.

The verses you mentioned list habitual sins an individual participates in willingly.
This has nothing to do with Baptism which is a singular event.

Of course (bold above)...

I was just mentioning this in passing as all those sins listed by Paul are in themselves acts of disobedience, so I was wanting to point out the importance of teaching people we need to obey Christ as Lord.

 

[Edial]

If someone has a fear of such things, they should be taught the importance of it and seek deliverance from such fear that prohibits them from obeying. You are correct, no need to go outside our bounds and judge them. If someone said they had stage fright for example, we should actively seek to educate them on the importance of baptism and pray over them.

I just fear taking such a stance encourages people to use that as an excuse to not get baptized.

You are correct in everything you said.

But it is their business if they take that fear as an excuse. They should be educated, but who would do that?
We do not know each other here.

If I were you I would recommend they have a private baptism.
Some Lutherans who baptize infants do not even wait for a "baptism day" in a church and some fathers baptize them in the sink.

Now, this in itself would bring up a debate because some would argue with you that the adult baptism should be witnessed by the congregation!
And you may argue back that it not need to be that way.

Have fun in the thread.

 

[Edial]

Of course (bold above)...

I was just mentioning this in passing as all those sins listed by Paul are in themselves acts of disobedience, so I was wanting to point out the importance of teaching people we need to obey Christ as Lord.

Of course we need to teach people to be obedient as well as to be baptized.

 

[Edial]

But you can certainly say that many (if not most) denominations, be they Pentecostal, Evangelical, Reformed that they will rightfully demand that every applicant for membership is water baptised and that they will also require this for any senior leadership role.

When appropriate, once a new converts questions become a bit more specific, we can also advise them that the broader church will tend to view someone's rejection as being a sign of their inner rebellion or that their commitment to the Lord falls somewhat short.

Excellent way of putting it without actually pulling the trigger.

Yes, if the broader church sees rejection of baptism as a form of rebellion, they definitely may say that one's commitment to the Lord falls somewhat short.

And you are correct, most of churches simply would not accept you into membership if you are not baptized.
How did I forget that simple fact.

 

[Biblicist]

You are correct in everything you said.

But it is their business if they take that fear as an excuse. They should be educated, but who would do that?
We do not know each other here.

If I were you I would recommend they have a private baptism.
Some Lutherans who baptize infants do not even wait for a "baptism day" in a church and some fathers baptize them in the sink.

Now, this in itself would bring up a debate because some would argue with you that the adult baptism should be witnessed by the congregation!
And you may argue back that it not need to be that way.

Have fun in the thread.

That's really interesting, I hadn't realised this.

 

[Optimax]

Of course we need to teach people to be obedient as well as to be baptized.

Being baptized is not obedience.

One can be obedient and be baptized without the foggiest idea of why they did it except for..........................

One is baptized recognizing the purpose for it.

To be buried with Christ and raised in newness of life.

Rom 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. KJV

 

[Edial]

Salvation without works doesn't set right with me ... We are called to prove something with our faith and that to me includes works and confession before men of my faith that Jesus saved me on the cross at Calvary.

Salvation without works is no salvation at all because salvation is seen by works.
However, one is saved when just the buds of the fruit are seen, not the whole fruit - the branches and the vine (John 15).
God sees the good works within our confessional soul once we believe - these are the buds of the fruit.

Deathbed conversions bear an immediate fruit (works) ... that only God sees.

 

[Svt4Him]

Isn't say, not committing adultery seen as obedience? Honouring your parents?

 

[Edial]

You should actively preach obedience to Christ's commands. This "I'm not their judge" is a simple way of saying "I don't want to offend anybody". The Bible has already stated the rules for entrance into Heaven, we are not judging people by telling them if they do not obey they will be condemned. The scriptures say that already...

Joh 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

We should be allowed to discuss such topics without getting our feathers ruffled. I'm not calling anyone's salvation into question by telling them Jesus expects them to obey him or they face consequences for disobedience. That is the heart of them calling him Lord, which without such a confession no one can enter heaven.

You are correct.
However, the word "disobey" relates to a general disobedience to Christ, not only in one or two things.

Not everyone can turn the other cheek.
This in itself will not disqualify one from Heaven.

Disobedience is a lifestyle.