Romans 9

[Hammster]

Boxer said this:

And you said this:

So, seems you do believe there is a both a general call to everyone and an efficacious call to the elect.

Why?

Because not everyone who hears the gospel is saved.

 

[Hammster]

Doesn't answer the question. Maybe someone will actually address the question and answer it.

I did.

 

[OzSpen]

None of this implies that God issues a "general call" to the non-elect. That they fall under the hearing of the gospel does not constitute a call to them.

So what are you saying is the meaning of Titus 2:11? It states,

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people (ESV)

Oz

 

[Jack Terrence]

So what are you saying is the meaning of Titus 2:11? It states,

Oz

We have been over this before sir. You already know the Calvinist answer. You guys think that if you ask the same questions over and over again that it will change my mind. Well, don't hold your breath. The grace of God has no more appeared to every individual than the gospel has been preached to every individual (Colossians 1:6, 23).

The term "all men" means "all nations of men." It meant simply that the grace of God was not exclusive to Jews only.

"Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all nations."

Come up with a new argument man.

 

[sdowney717]

So what are you saying is the meaning of Titus 2:11? It states,

Oz

Trained by Saving Grace

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

It is clear that 'us' here Paul is talking to saved believers.

That the grace bringing salvation has appeared to all men means some out of all people from all over will be brought into the kingdom of God. That is from every tribe tongue nation and kindred of men all over the earth will sit at the feast with Abraham, Isaac , Jacob.

Rev 5

9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us[d] kings[e] and priests to our God;
And we[f] shall reign on the earth.”

Matthew 8

11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven

And appearing to all men, does not mean their salvation call or election, for their word has gone out to all the earth. And who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed.

Romans 10

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”[j] 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”[k]

 

[OzSpen]

We have been over this before sir. You already know the Calvinist answer. You guys think that if you ask the same questions over and over again that it will change my mind. Well, don't hold your breath. The grace of God has no more appeared to every individual than the gospel has been preached to every individual (Colossians 1:6, 23).

The term "all men" means "all nations of men." It meant simply that the grace of God was not exclusive to Jews only.

"Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all nations."

Come up with a new argument man. You are boring me to tears.

I beg your pardon!

My new argument is from Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon, which does not agree with your conclusion, giving the exegetical meaning,'the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men' (p. 809, emphasis added).

There is nothing new to bring up because the clear meaning of the text is that the universal offer of saving grace is to all people. I will not impose 'all nations of men and not the Jews only' on the text.

Oz

 

[janxharris]

The assumption is that the man without the robe was gathered. I don't think the text supports that. I think that's a picture of those who "come" seeking what God gives, and not God Himself.

v.14 makes it clear that he (the man without the robe) was invited but he was not chosen.

 

[OzSpen]

It is clear that 'us' here Paul is talking to saved believers.

That the grace bringing salvation has appeared to all men means some out of all people from all over will be brought into the kingdom of God. That is from every tribe tongue nation and kindred of men all over the earth will sit at the feast with Abraham, Isaac , Jacob.

Rev 5

Matthew 8

And appearing to all men, does not mean their salvation call or election, for their word has gone out to all the earth. And who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed.

Romans 10

sd,

You say that this salvation call does not go out to all the earth. That is not what I read in a plain reading of the text.

Titus 2:11 states,

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people (ESV).

To make 'all men' mean, as you state, 'all men means some out of all people from all over will be brought into the kingdom of God', strains my understanding of the Greek language AND the English language. Lutheran commentator, R C H Lenski, exegeting Titus 2:11, states that 'the grace ... saving for all men' is 'the universality of this saving grace, which is in direct contradiction to Calvin's limited grace' (Lenski 1937:919).

In some ways Titus 2:11 is a parallel verse with John 3:16. God always takes the initiative in salvation (e.g. Isa 59:15-16; Jn 15:16; Rm 2:4). The result of what is stated in Titus 2:11, is that the will of human beings has been freed regarding salvation. We know this because it is implied in the passages of Scripture where there are commands/exhortations to:

• Turn to God (e.g. Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; Mat 18:3; Acts 3:19);
• To repent (e.g. 1 Kings 8:47; Mat 3:2; Mk 1:15; Acts 17:30);
• To believe (Isa 43:10; Jn 6:29; Acts 16:31; 1 Jn 3:23).

This is God's prevenient grace, in my understanding, that does not mean a person can change the direction of his will to pursuing God or to give up sin to follow the Lord. It does mean that a person can make an initial response to the Lord God Almighty so that God can grant the person repentance and faith. We see an example of this in Jeremiah 31:18, 'Restore me, and I will return' (NIV). Or as the KJV puts it, 'Turn thou me, and I shall be turned'.

Thus 'to/for all men' places emphasis on the universal offer of salvation, that is available to all but only takes effect when there is a personal response of faith towards Jesus.

In Christ,
Oz


Works consulted
Lenski, R C H 1937. Commentary on the New Testament: The interpretation of St Paul's epistles to the Colossians, to the Thessalonians, to Timothy, to Titus, and to Philemon. Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers (originally 1937, Lutheran Book Concern; 1946, Wartburg Press; 1961, Augsburg Publishing House).

 

[Hammster]

v.14 makes it clear that he (the man without the robe) was invited but he was not chosen.

Everyone was invited. But he was thrown out. So the reason he came could not have been because of the invitation. Or are you arguing that there are some who want to come but have no access to salvation?

 

[Hammster]

sd,

You say that this salvation call does not go out to all the earth. That is not what I read in a plain reading of the text.

Titus 2:11 states,
To make 'all men' mean, as you state, 'all men means some out of all people from all over will be brought into the kingdom of God', strains my understanding of the Greek language AND the English language. Lutheran commentator, R C H Lenski, exegeting Titus 2:11, states that 'the grace ... saving for all men' is 'the universality of this saving grace, which is in direct contradiction to Calvin's limited grace' (Lenski 1937:919).

In some ways Titus 2:11 is a parallel verse with John 3:16. God always takes the initiative in salvation (e.g. Isa 59:15-16; Jn 15:16; Rm 2:4). The result of what is stated in Titus 2:11, is that the will of human beings has been freed regarding salvation. We know this because it is implied in the passages of Scripture where there are commands/exhortations to:

• Turn to God (e.g. Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; Mat 18:3; Acts 3:19);
• To repent (e.g. 1 Kings 8:47; Mat 3:2; Mk 1:15; Acts 17:30);
• To believe (Isa 43:10; Jn 6:29; Acts 16:31; 1 Jn 3:23).

This is God's prevenient grace, in my understanding, that does not mean a person can change the direction of his will to pursuing God or to give up sin to follow the Lord. It does mean that a person can make an initial response to the Lord God Almighty so that God can grant the person repentance and faith. We see an example of this in Jeremiah 31:18, 'Restore me, and I will return' (NIV). Or as the KJV puts it, 'Turn thou me, and I shall be turned'.

Thus 'to/for all men' places emphasis on the universal offer of salvation, that is available to all but only takes effect when there is a personal response of faith towards Jesus.

In Christ,
Oz


Works consulted
Lenski, R C H 1937. Commentary on the New Testament: The interpretation of St Paul's epistles to the Colossians, to the Thessalonians, to Timothy, to Titus, and to Philemon. Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers (originally 1937, Lutheran Book Concern; 1946, Wartburg Press; 1961, Augsburg Publishing House).

The problem is your myopic view of the verse. Nobody will argue that it couldn't have the linguistic meaning of all men everywhere at all times. However, you ignore the proceeding verses and the those following.

The proceeding verses list a whole range of people. Older women, younger women, men, masters, slaves, etc. Then Paul drops v 11 in there. So in context, it's impossible (unless you have a tradition to prop up) to have Paul all of the sudden change context and mean every person everywhere. In context, he's talking about types of people.

Then, he goes on to say what the grace actually does. He's very specific. There's no way that this can mean that everyone has the same benefit from this grace.

Your view has to assume that, in that verse, there's some sort of option for men to respond to the grace. It's a huge assumption because it's nowhere implied.

Your view has once again been proven lacking in two areas, if context is considered.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because not everyone who hears the gospel is saved.

Maybe you missed post #77. In it, I quoted JesusFreak, who said this:

Sure, but not all answer the call. Which is why Reformed Theology differentiates between the general call and efficacious call. There is a general call made to all people, but only the elect will answer that call because of their election. Therefore it is effectual unto those who have the capacity to answer it, i.e. have been regenerated by the work of the Spirit.

So, he claims that reformed theology acknowledges "a general call made to all people".

And you still haven't addressed the question of WHY a general call to everyone, rather than just to the saved.

For what purpose would God invite the non-elect to believe the gospel, which doesn't apply to them in the least?

In fact, any invitation to believe the gospel to the non-elect would be a lie. Do you believe that God lies? That's what Calvinism leads to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The term "all men" means "all nations of men." It meant simply that the grace of God was not exclusive to Jews only.

Please prove that with exegesis and context.

"Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all nations."

Come up with a new argument man.

Why not stay with what Oz was talking about: Titus 2:11, not Mark 16:15.

Show me from Titus 2:11 that "all men" only means "all nations". I don't believe you. There is nothing in the context to conclude "all men" means "all nations of men". Zero.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is clear that 'us' here Paul is talking to saved believers.

Yes, in v.12. But that doesn't influence the meaning of "all men" in v.11.

That the grace bringing salvation has appeared to all men means some out of all people from all over will be brought into the kingdom of God.

Only if words don't mean what they SAY. It means exactly what it says: God's grace has brought salvation to everyone.

But that doesn't imply that all men have salvation. Why? Because other verses tell us that salvation is a gift and given only to those who believe in Christ. It's all very simple.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Everyone was invited. But he was thrown out.

Can you explain the fact that he actually got IN the kingdom, before he was thrown out? He was much more than simply invited. He was THERE. Please explain how that occurred.

So the reason he came could not have been because of the invitation.

What are you trying to get at? How else could he have come? The context is very clear that all in attendance were invited.

But what I'd like to see from you is an explanation of WHY he got IN before he was thrown out.

 

[Hammster]

Maybe you missed post #77. In it, I quoted JesusFreak, who said this:

So, he claims that reformed theology acknowledges "a general call made to all people".

And you still haven't addressed the question of WHY a general call to everyone, rather than just to the saved.

Because that's what God says to do. (See 1 and 3)

For what purpose would God invite the non-elect to believe the gospel, which doesn't apply to them in the least?

I don't know. But He does. That's enough for me.

In fact, any invitation to believe the gospel to the non-elect would be a lie. Do you believe that God lies? That's what Calvinism leads to.

It's not a lie. But I love your straw man. It's pretty. We have NEVER seen one like it. (Insert eye till here. )

 

[Hammster]

Can you explain the fact that he actually got IN the kingdom, before he was thrown out? He was much more than simply invited. He was THERE. Please explain how that occurred.


What are you trying to get at? How else could he have come? The context is very clear that all in attendance were invited.

But what I'd like to see from you is an explanation of WHY he got IN before he was thrown out.

There are many people who come for God's hand, and not His face. In other words, they want the gift but not the giver.

What's your explanation?

 

[bling]

Three purposes for preaching the gospel.

1. It glorifies God.
2. It's the means through which men are saved.
3. It's commanded.

If anyone has a problem understanding this, please let me know.

Where is the benefit to the one doing the preaching?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because that's what God says to do. (See 1 and 3)

Still doesn't answer the issue of why He says to. To "invite" a non-elect to believe the gospel is to invite them to believe a lie, since the gospel doesn't apply to them, according to your theology. So you are still dodging the question again. But I guess you have no option here.

I don't know. But He does. That's enough for me.

Well, at least you are being honest. You don't know because Calvinistm doesn't have an answer as to why. But the Bible DOES have the answer as to why.

The reason there is a general call or invitation to everyone is because Christ died for everyone. That is the answer, but it doesn't come from Calvinism. It comes from the Bible.

It's not a lie. But I love your straw man. It's pretty. We have NEVER seen one like it.

We know from Paul in 1 Cor 15:3 that of "first importance" in preaching the gospel is that "Christ died for our sins". How is that NOT a lie when presenting the gospel to any of the so-called non-elect? You haven't answered that. I'm sure because you don't know the answer.

There is no straw man here. Only honest questions that Calvinism cannot answer. Paul's gospel was "Christ died for our sins".

Can you honestly say that giving the gospel message to those you consider the non-elect to be truthful?

Consider the passage in John 5:16-47. It begins with the Jew persecuting Jesus for healing on the Sabbath. In verses 38, 40 and 43, Jesus noted that they didn't believe Him, or come to Him for eternal life. Pretty clear they weren't going to believe either.

Yet, please note v.34:
“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved."

Why would Jesus say that to those who didn't believe in Him and weren't going to?

There is so much evidence from Scripture that anyone can be saved, yet Calvinism claims that only those Christ died for will be saved.

What is so difficult about accepting that Christ died for everyone, yet only believers will be saved? What verses do you have that refute these statements? Any?

 

[Hammster]

Where is the benefit to the one doing the preaching?

It glorifies God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are many people who come for God's hand, and not His face. In other words, they want the gift but not the giver.

What's your explanation?

Before I give you mine, you didn't properly deal with what I said, which was:

Can you explain the fact that he actually got IN the kingdom, before he was thrown out? He was much more than simply invited. He was THERE. Please explain how that occurred.


What are you trying to get at? How else could he have come? The context is very clear that all in attendance were invited.

But what I'd like to see from you is an explanation of WHY he got IN before he was thrown out.

You didn't address HOW or WHY he even got IN the kingdom before he was thrown out.

Are you ignoring my question or do you not understand what I'm asking?