Romans 9

[Jack Terrence]

Many (actually, all) are called, but few are chosen.

Where does it say that all are called? The servants were told to go out and call those who had been previously invited.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God is glorified whenever the gospel is proclaimed.

That doesn't come close to answering the question.

Also, we do not know who the elect are.

But God surely does know, so you still haven't answered the question.

Why is there a general call to "all people" IF God has already pre-chosen the ones He intends to save?

Your response demonstrates the inability of Calvinism to answer, or even, apparently, to understand the question.

ps: The question wasn't directed to you, so I hope the one it was directed to will also respond. Hopefully actually addressing the issue.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I always have a chuckle when an argument is made like this.

I'm always glad to bring some chuckles to the forum.

Let's assume you're right FG2, and the general call doesn't serve any purpose in our scheme (don't tell me your question doesn't infer this position either).

Actually, my question is directly related to the theology of Calvinism. Which is why I asked it. I haven't made any pre-suppositions as to the Calvinist position regarding why God would give a general call to all people when He has already chosen those He wants. I sure don't see any reason or how it serves any purpose, but I'd love to know how Calvinists answer the question. Or if they will.

How are the elect supposed to come?

Since it is the Calvinist position that the elect have been chosen from eternity past, how or why would it matter the method? They've already been chosen. Just hearing a few bars of "Just as I am" should to the trick, right?

But your question sidesteps the issue of my question. WHY give a general call since God is omniscient and knows who He has chosen. WHY a general call that involves the non-elect? For what purpose? That is the issue.

How is the call to be extended if we don't know who they are?

It doesn't matter if you know or not. God surely does know. It's not up to you to know. But WHY give a "general call" that isn't effectual.

Which brings up a point. So far the discussion has been about a "general call" and an "effectual call". Does Calvinism claim that in the "general call" to all people there is this "effectual call" that only "hits" the elect?

Or, are there 2 different "calls", one 'general' and the other 'effectual'?

If there are 2 different calls, how are they different? Can anyone explain how to tell them apart?

It creates a pragmatic problem (which is solved by the general call).

I see no pragmatic solution to having this "general call" to everyone, since not everyone has been chosen. In fact, because of this pre-choosing, there is no need whatsoever for a general call to all people.

The argument is made that the general call is nonsensical, and yet, there is no alternative you can provide in bringing many sons to glory.

Why isn't there any alternative? God knows who He's chosen. Why does God provide a "general call" to those He never chose?

I believe the pragmatic problem is solved by ditching Calvinism and going with what the Bible says. God loves everyone, Christ died for everyone, providing eternal life for everyone, and God gives eternal life only to those who believe.

Therefore, there is only 1 "call". It is an invitation to believe the good news that Christ died for your sins and provides eternal life to all who believe in Him for it.

Where's the problem in that view? I see none. And I can back it up with Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where does it say that all are called? The servants were told to go out and call those who had been previously invited.

Matt 22:14 says "many are called, but few are chosen".

Would you please tell the forum who you think the "many" are, and who the "few" are? That would be very beneficial to the discussion. Then I'd know where you stand regarding that verse. Thanks.

 

[Hammster]

That doesn't come close to answering the question.


But God surely does know, so you still haven't answered the question.

Why is there a general call to "all people" IF God has already pre-chosen the ones He intends to save?

Your response demonstrates the inability of Calvinism to answer, or even, apparently, to understand the question.

ps: The question wasn't directed to you, so I hope the one it was directed to will also respond. Hopefully actually addressing the issue.

Your question was answered.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your question was answered.

So, apparently, you don't know or understand what: "That doesn't come close to answering the question.
But God surely does know, so you still haven't answered the question." means.

Hopefully, some other Calvinist will understand the question and provide an answer that does address the question.

 

[Hammster]

So, apparently, you don't know or understand what: "That doesn't come close to answering the question.
But God surely does know, so you still haven't answered the question." means.

Hopefully, some other Calvinist will understand the question and provide an answer that does address the question.

It answered your question. Maybe you just didn't understand the answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It answered your question. Maybe you just didn't understand the answer.

Quite the opposite, actually. But hopefully someone will provide an answer that does address the issue in the question.

 

[Hammster]

Three purposes for preaching the gospel.

1. It glorifies God.
2. It's the means through which men are saved.
3. It's commanded.

If anyone has a problem understanding this, please let me know.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Why is there a general call to "all people" IF God has already pre-chosen the ones He intends to save?

There isn't a "general call" to all people. God has judicially blinded the non-elect. It is contradictory to say that He still calls them. It is sheer nonsense!

 

[Jack Terrence]

Three purposes for preaching the gospel.

1. It glorifies God.
2. It's the means through which men are saved.
3. It's commanded.

If anyone has a problem understanding this, please let me know.

None of this implies that God issues a "general call" to the non-elect. That they fall under the hearing of the gospel does not constitute a call to them.

 

[Hammster]

None of this implies that God issues a "general call" to the non-elect. That they fall under the hearing of the gospel does not constitute a call to them.

Thanks. Your hyper-Calvinism is noted.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Thanks. Your hyper-Calvinism is noted.

Cop out reply.

cop out: failure to face difficulty

 

[FreeGrace2]

Three purposes for preaching the gospel.

1. It glorifies God.
2. It's the means through which men are saved.
3. It's commanded.

If anyone has a problem understanding this, please let me know.

No problem with this. But it doesn't address the question of WHY a general call to everyone since (according to Calvinism) Christ didn't die for everyone.

We all know that the "call" is an invitation. Does God really "call" or invite the non-elect to believe that Christ died for them, when He didn't really?????????

That is the issue that you are most unwilling to face.

In fact, giving the gospel to the non-elect is dishonest, since the good news is that "Christ died for our sins" per 1 Cor 15:3, yet Christ didn't (according to Calvinism) die for any of them.

There is no good news for the non-elect. In effect, the non-elect were created for hell, since they weren't chosen. That's anything but good news.

 

[Hammster]

Cop out reply.

cop out: failure to face difficulty

No. Just a description to save time.

 

[Hammster]

No problem with this. But it doesn't address the question of WHY a general call to everyone since (according to Calvinism) Christ didn't die for everyone.

See number 1 and number 3.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There isn't a "general call" to all people. God has judicially blinded the non-elect. It is contradictory to say that He still calls them. It is sheer nonsense!

Haven't you been following the thread? It's about the "general call" to all people, and the effectual call to the elect.

Here's what JesusFreak said in post #56:

Sure, but not all answer the call. Which is why Reformed Theology differentiates between the general call and efficacious call. There is a general call made to all people, but only the elect will answer that call because of their election. Therefore it is effectual unto those who have the capacity to answer it, i.e. have been regenerated by the work of the Spirit.

Maybe you missed the post.

So, does RT differentiate between the general call to all people, and the efficacious call to the elect? JF thinks so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Boxer said this:

None of this implies that God issues a "general call" to the non-elect. That they fall under the hearing of the gospel does not constitute a call to them.

And you said this:

Thanks. Your hyper-Calvinism is noted.

So, seems you do believe there is a both a general call to everyone and an efficacious call to the elect.

Why?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Cop out reply.

cop out: failure to face difficulty

Seems to be a common response.

 

[FreeGrace2]

See number 1 and number 3.

Doesn't answer the question. Maybe someone will actually address the question and answer it.