Romans 9

[janxharris]

(The King James Version)​

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​

Even though the people of Israel (Paul, himself, being one of them) are blessed with all the benefits listed, it does not automatically confer salvation. Paul's anguish is explained at the end of the chapter ('...for they (Israel) pursued it (righteousness) not by faith, but as it were by works of the law.')

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​

The true Israel (anyone who genuinely believes in Jesus) is not composed of all the descendents of Israel (the man).

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.​

Paul says: '...They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.' Obviously, Paul's focus is not Isaac (over Ishmael) as regards the 'children of promise'. No, it is not Isaac he has in mind, but Jesus Christ himself that Paul is ultimately referring to. Indeed, Paul says so in Galatians 3:16: Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

He says much the same in Galatians 3:7-9: Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. ​

God's promise was through Jesus Christ and to all that put their faith in Him. These alone, will God have mercy on. No man, through his own effort, will attain righteousness.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.​

Pharoah is given as an example, but we know that 'all (men) have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God' (Romans 3:23). Paul cites Pharaoh because his (Pharaoh's) unwillingness to let the Israelites go was used by God so that his name would become known 'throughout the earth', but we know that any man who hardens his heart towards God (all men have) will be hardened. Nothing prevented Pharaoh from putting his faith in God. God has mercy on all those in Christ ('hath...mercy on whom he will have mercy').

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? ​

All men have sinned, so all men are vessels unto dishonour. Only those in Christ are vessels unto honour.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?​

Again, all those in Christ are considered 'holy and blameless in his sight' (Ephesians 1:4). All men, at one time, are headed towards damnation. Only when they put their faith in Christ is mercy granted.

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling stone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.​

This speaks for itself, I would say.

 

[Skala]

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?​

Again, all those in Christ are considered 'holy and blameless in his sight' (Ephesians 1:4). All men, at one time, are headed towards damnation. Only when they put their faith in Christ is mercy granted.

This is when you dropped the ball because you ignored the final phrase when Paul said "even us whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles"

The ones who are called (effectually) are the ones that put their faith in Christ.

 

[janxharris]

This is when you dropped the ball because you ignored the final phrase when Paul said "even us whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles"

The ones who are called (effectually) are the ones that put their faith in Christ.

Where does it say in that verse that God called them unconditionally?

 

[Hammster]

Where does it say in that verse that God called them unconditionally?

If they've already met a condition, why would He need to call them?

 

[nobdysfool]

Where does it say in that verse that God called them unconditionally?

He didn't say "unconditionally". He said "effectually"...there IS a difference...

 

[sdowney717]

He didn't say "unconditionally". He said "effectually"...there IS a difference...

In Romans 11 it mentions the irrevocability of our calling.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

We are all, that is all people everywhere been committed to disobedience to God by God, and this done by Him to make it certain that it is up to Him to have mercy or not regarding our being saved by Him. Paul shows this truth by telling us that we have received mercy to be saved because Israel was disobedient. And that mercy will someday extend back to the Jews so that they will also receive mercy to be saved in the same exact way we received salvation and that is by the mercy of God that we are all saved. If God has no mercy on someone, then they are not saved and will go to hellfire.

God does not change His mind about our election and calling and the gifts that God gives people. Our salvation is the most important gift.

 

[bling]

There is a lot of salvation discussed in Romans 9-11 so it is hard to say salvation is not being talked about.

Also, individuals are being addressed like “one of you…”, Esua, Jacob, Pharaoh, Isaac, and really salvation is individualistic.


I have written a rather long explanation of Romans 9, but bottom line (Rm 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!...) God is totally fair and as just as any being could be. Paul is for the rest of Romans 9-11 explaining how God is just/fair even when it seems to humans God is not being just/fair.

Rm 11: 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The bottom line is it does not matter if you were born Jew or Gentile they both sinned big time and both were judged by their heart condition. We do know there was a “law” written on the hearts of the Gentiles, but the OT scripture is only addressing the Jews with little glimpses of Gentiles (like Nineveh).

As far as Romans 9 this is what I have written as an introduction before:

Verses are pulled out of Romans 9 to support the idea God makes people a particular way so He will save them and makes others a particular way so they will be eternally lost. That is not what is being conveyed by these particular verses.

To best interpret any verse good hermeneutics would have you first understand the context, context, context and context. Who is writing, to whom is he writing, why, where, when is he writing. The questions for Romans 9 would include:

1. Was there a time when Jewish Christians (elect) taught that a good Christian also had to be a good Jew (following especially the dietary requirements, Sabbath and circumcision)?

2. Was there at the same time these Jewish Christians teaching you a good Jew, Christians (elect) teaching you did not have to follow the old Jewish Laws (esp. Sabbath, circumcision, and food)?

3. Was this a significant issue in the first century church, did Paul address this problem in his letters, and when did this problem cease to be a problem?

4. Could there have been and were there Jewish Christians (elect) in Rome at the time of Romans teaching other Gentile Christians (elect) they had to (be circumcised, obey the Sabbath, and/or fool the Old Jewish dietary requirements)?

5. Was Paul’s letter to the Romans written to non-Christians or to some non-Christians (non-elect)?

Paul uses two teaching methods that are taught in secular philosophy classes and are used even in secular classes as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main question in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born.

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau?

Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

That is what is at issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual and this “letter” is being written to non-Christians?

Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?

Is it really significant in what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in the first century in Rome?

Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison.

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

We could get into a long discussion of “ honorable and dishonorable vessels” which some equate the dishonorable as being like “clay pigeons” made for destruction, but that is not the best translation of these words. Paul uses the same words conveying the same idea in 2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

In Tim. Paul talks about these same “dishonorable vessels” in a rich person’s house (definitely not clay pigeons) and these dishonorable vessels (common vessels) can be made “holy” (which fits the Gentiles being made holy).

Those that will be destroyed come from both the common and special vessels that fail to meet their objective.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

 

[janxharris]

If they've already met a condition, why would He need to call them?

Many (actually, all) are called, but few are chosen.

 

[janxharris]

In Romans 11 it mentions the irrevocability of our calling.


We are all, that is all people everywhere been committed to disobedience to God by God, and this done by Him to make it certain that it is up to Him to have mercy or not regarding our being saved by Him.

I cannot see that you have shown this. You haven't actually engaged with what I have argued regarding Romans 9.

Christ is the elect of God:

1 Peter 2:4
As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him—

1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

1 Peter 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Paul shows this truth by telling us that we have received mercy to be saved because Israel was disobedient. And that mercy will someday extend back to the Jews so that they will also receive mercy to be saved in the same exact way we received salvation and that is by the mercy of God that we are all saved. If God has no mercy on someone, then they are not saved and will go to hellfire.

Paul is talking about which body of people God is working through. Since Israel rejected the Messiah God is now working through the Gentiles (generally, but not exclusively). However, Israel's blindness is not forever.

God does not change His mind about our election and calling and the gifts that God gives people. Our salvation is the most important gift.

Suggesting that only a select club has access to salvation is pretty tendentious.

 

[Hammster]

Many (actually, all) are called, but few are chosen.

So if they've already met a condition, why would He need to call them? What condition have they met?

ETA The calling you are referring to in Matt 22 is different than that in Rom 9.

 

[janxharris]

There is a lot of salvation discussed in Romans 9-11 so it is hard to say salvation is not being talked about.

Also, individuals are being addressed like “one of you…”, Esua, Jacob, Pharaoh, Isaac, and really salvation is individualistic.


I have written a rather long explanation of Romans 9, but bottom line (Rm 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!...) God is totally fair and as just as any being could be. Paul is for the rest of Romans 9-11 explaining how God is just/fair even when it seems to humans God is not being just/fair.

Rm 11: 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The bottom line is it does not matter if you were born Jew or Gentile they both sinned big time and both were judged by their heart condition. We do know there was a “law” written on the hearts of the Gentiles, but the OT scripture is only addressing the Jews with little glimpses of Gentiles (like Nineveh).

As far as Romans 9 this is what I have written as an introduction before:

Verses are pulled out of Romans 9 to support the idea God makes people a particular way so He will save them and makes others a particular way so they will be eternally lost. That is not what is being conveyed by these particular verses.

To best interpret any verse good hermeneutics would have you first understand the context, context, context and context. Who is writing, to whom is he writing, why, where, when is he writing. The questions for Romans 9 would include:

1. Was there a time when Jewish Christians (elect) taught that a good Christian also had to be a good Jew (following especially the dietary requirements, Sabbath and circumcision)?

2. Was there at the same time these Jewish Christians teaching you a good Jew, Christians (elect) teaching you did not have to follow the old Jewish Laws (esp. Sabbath, circumcision, and food)?

3. Was this a significant issue in the first century church, did Paul address this problem in his letters, and when did this problem cease to be a problem?

4. Could there have been and were there Jewish Christians (elect) in Rome at the time of Romans teaching other Gentile Christians (elect) they had to (be circumcised, obey the Sabbath, and/or fool the Old Jewish dietary requirements)?

5. Was Paul’s letter to the Romans written to non-Christians or to some non-Christians (non-elect)?

Paul uses two teaching methods that are taught in secular philosophy classes and are used even in secular classes as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main question in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born.

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau?

Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

That is what is at issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual and this “letter” is being written to non-Christians?

Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?

Is it really significant in what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in the first century in Rome?

Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison.

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

We could get into a long discussion of “ honorable and dishonorable vessels” which some equate the dishonorable as being like “clay pigeons” made for destruction, but that is not the best translation of these words. Paul uses the same words conveying the same idea in 2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

In Tim. Paul talks about these same “dishonorable vessels” in a rich person’s house (definitely not clay pigeons) and these dishonorable vessels (common vessels) can be made “holy” (which fits the Gentiles being made holy).

Those that will be destroyed come from both the common and special vessels that fail to meet their objective.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Will try to respond, but just letting you know that it is really difficult to do so because you use so many tags. It's hard to see where they begin and end.

 

[janxharris]

So if they've already met a condition, why would He need to call them? What condition have they met?

It all depends what 'call' means.

I think the onus is on you to prove that v.24 is speaking of effectual calling.

ETA The calling you are referring to in Matt 22 is different than that in Rom 9.

Okay, that is a statement...

 

[Hammster]

It all depends what 'call' means.

I think the onus is on you to prove that v.24 is speaking of effectual calling.

I think it's the same call referred to in 8:30. That, by it's nature, is effectual. That is unless you want to believe Paul is speaking of universalism.

 

[janxharris]

There is a lot of salvation discussed in Romans 9-11 so it is hard to say salvation is not being talked about.

Also, individuals are being addressed like “one of you…”, Esua, Jacob, Pharaoh, Isaac, and really salvation is individualistic.


I have written a rather long explanation of Romans 9, but bottom line (Rm 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!...) God is totally fair and as just as any being could be. Paul is for the rest of Romans 9-11 explaining how God is just/fair even when it seems to humans God is not being just/fair.

Rm 11: 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The bottom line is it does not matter if you were born Jew or Gentile they both sinned big time and both were judged by their heart condition. We do know there was a “law” written on the hearts of the Gentiles, but the OT scripture is only addressing the Jews with little glimpses of Gentiles (like Nineveh).

As far as Romans 9 this is what I have written as an introduction before:

Verses are pulled out of Romans 9 to support the idea God makes people a particular way so He will save them and makes others a particular way so they will be eternally lost. That is not what is being conveyed by these particular verses.

I agreed very much with your last paragraph.

To best interpret any verse good hermeneutics would have you first understand the context, context, context and context. Who is writing, to whom is he writing, why, where, when is he writing. The questions for Romans 9 would include:

1. Was there a time when Jewish Christians (elect) taught that a good Christian also had to be a good Jew (following especially the dietary requirements, Sabbath and circumcision)?

2. Was there at the same time these Jewish Christians teaching you a good Jew, Christians (elect) teaching you did not have to follow the old Jewish Laws (esp. Sabbath, circumcision, and food)?

3. Was this a significant issue in the first century church, did Paul address this problem in his letters, and when did this problem cease to be a problem?

4. Could there have been and were there Jewish Christians (elect) in Rome at the time of Romans teaching other Gentile Christians (elect) they had to (be circumcised, obey the Sabbath, and/or fool the Old Jewish dietary requirements)?

5. Was Paul’s letter to the Romans written to non-Christians or to some non-Christians (non-elect)?

Paul uses two teaching methods that are taught in secular philosophy classes and are used even in secular classes as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main question in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born.

If the question that Paul was asking is: Is God unjust to have chosen whom
the promise would come to (Jesus), then we easily say that such election was not unfair.

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau?

Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

That is what is at issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

I think the 'problem' is summed up in vv. 30-32. Many Jews were incensed that righteousness was not attained through works of the law. Paul is explaining this all through Chapter 9, for God chose to have mercy on whom he would have mercy - and that is all those in Christ.

v. 8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

The promise was spoken to Christ. The children of the promise are those that have faith in Christ.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual and this “letter” is being written to non-Christians?

Paul is speaking of all men surely?

Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?

Is it really significant in what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in the first century in Rome?

Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison.

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

I'm not sure this is the right line of reasoning. All men are, at some point in their lives, vessels of dishonour.

We could get into a long discussion of “ honorable and dishonorable vessels” which some equate the dishonorable as being like “clay pigeons” made for destruction, but that is not the best translation of these words. Paul uses the same words conveying the same idea in 2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

In Tim. Paul talks about these same “dishonorable vessels” in a rich person’s house (definitely not clay pigeons) and these dishonorable vessels (common vessels) can be made “holy” (which fits the Gentiles being made holy).

Those that will be destroyed come from both the common and special vessels that fail to meet their objective.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Many Israelites could be justly described as vessels of dishonour. Again, I think Paul is saying that the vessels of honour are those that have faith in God's elect - Jesus.

1 Peter 2:4
As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him—

1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

 

[janxharris]

I think it's the same call referred to in 8:30. That, by it's nature, is effectual. That is unless you want to believe Paul is speaking of universalism.

Paul speaks of foreknowledge in the verse previous to the one you cite. Peter too:

1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

 

[Yoseft]

One thing is for sure.

He said

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,


“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

I stand in Awe and do not argue, Who am I, as Job figured out real Quick
when confronted by HIM, to question what He does.....

May we be Pleased and Humble, that HE shed the Light to us,
and walk in humility?

 

[Hammster]

Paul speaks of foreknowledge in the verse previous to the one you cite. Peter too:

1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

And?

 

[Skala]

Where does it say in that verse that God called them unconditionally?

It says, of the vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory, that God called them. Where does it say he called them conditionally?

In fact, the chapter lays out unconditional election as plain as day, starting from Paul's example of Jacob and Esau and how they were not chosen for their roles based on anything they did, but "So that God's purpose of election might stand..not of works, but of Him who calls.."

Then it says "He called people from out of Jews and Gentiles, as well"

 

[janxharris]

It says, of the vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory, that God called them. Where does it say he called them conditionally?

Those in Christ are prepared beforehand for glory. You would have to define 'called' and be very specific.

v. 30
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;

That is conditional.

In fact, the chapter lays out unconditional election as plain as day, starting from Paul's example of Jacob and Esau and how they were not chosen for their roles based on anything they did, but "So that God's purpose of election might stand..not of works, but of Him who calls.."

Romans 9:7-8
On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your seed will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

The promise was spoken to Abraham and his seed which is Christ. The children of the promise are God's children. Those who put their faith in Christ become elect because Christ was elect:

1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

1 Peter 2:4
As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him—

 

[janxharris]

One thing is for sure. He said
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

I stand in Awe and do not argue, Who am I, as Job figured out real Quick
when confronted by HIM, to question what He does.....

May we be Pleased and Humble, that HE shed the Light to us,
and walk in humility?

Hello Yoseft.
The question is: what, exactly, does Paul refer to when he asks, 'Is God unjust?'

Paul is referring to what he has just established:

Romans 9:7-8
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.​

What is the seed?

Galatians 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.​

Evidently, the promises were to Jesus Christ ALONE. However, Paul also says:

Galatians 3:7-9
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.​

We are adopted in to the promise when we put our faith in Christ. It must be stressed that faith in no way constitutes work. Verses 30-32 make this evident.

So, Paul asks if God is unjust in his (God's) decision to give the promises to Christ and to all those that put their faith in him. If we bear in mind that many Jews thought that they could attain righteousness (and therefore, the promise) through fulfilling the law (and Paul deals with this in verses 30-32), then it further clarifies why he asked that question.

Romans 9:30-32
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;​

If the faith that Paul mentions here contained within it even the smallest vestige of work, then it (faith) would in no way produce the righteousness that Paul equates with it, for works do not produce righteousness. Therefore faith is something that we can do - upon hearing the word of God (and we know that God has written the law in our very being).