Romans 9 on Election

[OldWiseGuy]

And in Romans 9 he reveals who the elect are, at that time.

 

[Clare73]

I tried to look into this as far as my time off work would allow me, and I found Molinism probably the closest to what I believe. However it is not about what I believe, but what the Bible says. And currently
it seems to be saying #1 for me, hence to see if I am reading something wrong.

You are reading it correctly.

I would change "The vessels of dishonour are created for God to show His wrath on them," to

"The objects of his wrath serve to make known the riches of his glory to the obects of his mercy." (Romans 9:22-23)

Separately, if you could share your thoughts and beliefs for #3 and #4 as well, it would be greatly insightful and I can include it in the poll as options if required.

Thank you for your reply!

 

[Humble_Disciple]

If unconditional election is true, as Romans 9 suggests, then saving faith is entirely the gift of God's grace, rather than due to our own efforts to believe.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

What is your view?

1. God has already chosen to save some and not to save others even before creation, when He created them. Those who are chosen are the elect. The vessels of dishonour are created for God to show His wrath on them.

OR

2. Everyone who believes in Christ will be saved - hence the decision lies on the person and not God. And since God already knew who would believe Him and who would reject Him ahead of time, so He presestined those whom He knew who would believe Him to be the elect.

Based on reading the Bible, after praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I am no longer a Calvinist:

Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/jeremiah-18-romans-9-de-calvinized.8217798/
John Calvin: Not a Calvinist
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/jeremiah-18-romans-9-de-calvinized.8217798/
My intent on this forum has not been to convince others that Calvinism is true, but only that they should be more tolerant of Calvinists, especially since some of history's greatest missionaries and evangelists have been Calvinists.

 

[privatepop]

Surely these people believed in Jesus,

Mat 7:21-23 {21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Faith is a work. Believing is a work.

1 Ths 1:3, Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

But we are not saved by Our works.

Gal 2;16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Clare73]

Based on reading the Bible, after praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I am no longer a Calvinist:

Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized
John Calvin: Not a Calvinist
My intent on this forum has not been to convince others that Calvinism is true, but only that they should be more tolerant of Calvinists, especially since some of history's greatest missionaries and evangelists have been Calvinists.

When did this happen?

Hope you remain a Paulist. . .

 

[Clare73]

Romans 9 seems to be addressing the calling and reconciliation of the remnant of Israelites living in the region of Galilee, that was once the Northern Kingdom, the "house of Israel".

Romans 9 is a defense of God's righteousness in his sovereign right to have mercy on some and to harden others based on nothing but his choice to do so (Romans 9:18).
The case of Jacob and Esau are the illustration of the principle (Romans 9:10-13).
All Israel is the object of this just rejection/hardening (Romans 9:19-24), except for a remnant (Romans 11:25) in whom the irrevocable gifts and call are fulfilled (Romans 11:29).

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Romans 9 is a defense of God's righteousness in his sovereign right to have mercy on some and to harden others based on nothing but his choice to do so (Romans 9:18).
The case of Jacob and Esau are the illustration of the principle (Romans 9:10-13).
All Israel is the object of this just rejection/hardening (Romans 9:19-24), except for a remnant (Romans 11:25) in whom the irrevocable gifts and call are fulfilled (Romans 11:29).

That is the remnant that Jesus was "sent only to".

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I have written an article about this topic at Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry neither #1 or #2 are the way I see it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I couldn't settle on either 1 or 2, because both are essentially true. This is the mystery which is not fully revealed to us in the Bible.

What the Bible tells us is that because of Adam's disobedience, he brought the blight of sin into the world, and cause the further creation of a race of rebels against God. Because of this the whole human race is blighted by sin and therefore deserving of hell. The Scripture says that there is no righteous no, not one, and that every person has gone his own way.

But God has put a plan of salvation in place and involved His Son Jesus Christ dying on the cross to take upon Himself the sin of those who believe the Gospel and depend on Him for salvation.

Because of God's foreknowledge of who is going to believe the Gospel and embrace Christ, before the foundation of the world, He made those ones His elect, and plucked them from the horde on the road to hell.

It was God's love for sinners that He presented the Gospel to all the world, but because the heart or man is desperately wicked, most reject the Gospel because they prefer the life of sin rather than a life in Christ.

So, here is the link between 1 and 2. All mankind because of Adam's disobedience are on the road to hell, and God would be totally just and righteous if He allowed everyone to end up in Hell. But He is a loving and merciful God, and has issued the invitation to flee from the wrath to come. He decided that He was not going to force anyone, but allow people to make their own choice to believe the Gospel.

Here is the mystery that has not be fully revealed to us: God knew who was going to believe the Gospel and embrace Christ, so He made them His elect. When the time came He enlightened those elect persons, and gave them the saving faith to receive Christ as Saviour.

It has not been revealed to us which came first - believing the Gospel or enlightenment by the Holy Spirit - or the decision to receive Christ, or the saving faith to enable them to do so. All we can do is to accept what we see in the Scriptures - that the person who believes the Gospel and embraces Christ as Saviour is an elect person, and the person who rejects the Gospel is reprobate and on the road to hell.

Any speculation concerning election, predestination, and reprobation outside of what is actually written in the Scriptures is of man's reasoning and delving into areas of curious enquiry that God does not permit.

 

[Cornelius77]

I'd say keep reading and ignore the responses given.

You certainly do not need any help understanding the Scriptures properly, if you're His...
You have His Spirit for that ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ).

However, for the record, I voted # 1, and I didn't arrive at that view through anything other than my own careful study of God's word over many years.
All I found that I needed to do, was to obey the Lord's commands here:

" Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 ).

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

I see that View # 1 creates a specific view of God's love... where He loved Jacob, and hated Esau ( Romans 9:13 ), hates the worker of iniquity ( Psalms 5:5-6, Psalms 11:5 ) and loves the righteous...those who have been made righteous by the blood of His Son.
He blesses some ( who do not deserve it, based on His mercy and grace ), and curses others ( who do deserve it, based on His holiness and justice ), and Jesus Christ grants eternal life to as many as were given to Him by His Father ( John 17:2 ).

It also describes foreknowledge as being in context with Jeremiah 1:5 and Psalms 139....where he specifically "knew", or set His love on someone before He created them;
Not just knowing "about" something ( or someone's decision ), but actually "knowing" them, in a loving way, before-hand....when He wrote their names in His Son's Book of Life.

In the end, He only casts into the Lake of Fire those whom He does not love ( and that His Son did not die for ), and never curses those that are His adopted children through His choosing to save them (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

They were chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).



May He bless you greatly and in many ways.

I think there is an essence of bias in love.

Romans 9:11 "Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand,"

Malachi 1:2-3 “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you ask, “How have You loved us?” “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated, and I have made his mountains a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

Isaiah 43:3 "Because you are precious and honored in My sight, and because I love you, I will give men in exchange for you and nations in place of your life."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If unconditional election is true, as Romans 9 suggests, then saving faith is entirely the gift of God's grace, rather than due to our own efforts to believe.

In actual fact, both are true. We are saved because we were chosen before the foundation of the world, and saved because we believed the Gospel and received Christ as Saviour. This is because the Scripture says both. It is the classic chicken and egg situation: which came first - enlightenment from the Holy Spirit and saving faith, or believing the Gospel causing enlightenment and saving faith?

In actual fact, we don't know, because the Scripture does not reveal how election through God's foreknowledge and conversion to Christ through personal choice are reconciled. The Scripture does not attempt to show how these are linked, it merely expects us to believe what it says, even though election and personal choice seem to be contradictory.

The important thing is that when we hear the Gospel we do not harden our hearts toward it, but come to Christ, trust in His finished work on the cross. Then after we have Christ as Saviour, the Scripture tells us that we were chosen and elected before the foundation of the world because God knew beforehand that we would believe the Gospel and embrace Christ.

The trouble with those who try to rationalise the conflict between predestination and personal choice is that they try to reason things in areas where the Scripture is silent. Therefore, we have those who hold to predestination as the initial cause, and others who hold that personal choice is the initial cause.

What we have is similar to what was going on in the Corinthian church - some said they followed Apollos, other Peter, and others exclusively Christ in preference to Peter and Apollos. Paul called these people "carnal babes" coping only with milk. These days we have those who follow Calvin, others who follow Arminius, and others who reject both and follow their image of Christ, Mary, or whoever turns their crank. Are not these ones "carnal babes" like Paul said, coping just with baby milk instead of the real meat of the Word?

If we try to delve into matters that are not specifically dealt with in Scripture, are we not getting tangled up in pointless speculation, instead of obeying the commands of Christ as clearly set out?

 

[EmethAlethia]

Rule #1 for interpreting figurative language/interpretations... Is ...

The writer tells you EXACTLY what he is illustrating. Hold to that and nothing more. That is the sum total of the meaning. Now what does it say the illustrations illustrate? Stick to that meaning and that one alone.

Rom 9:1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

(Who, from the context, are we discussing? Are we discussing individual salvation? How about the individuals from the Jews who are saved? Are we discussing them? No, the topic is the lost from the nation of Israel. But aren't they God's people? Did God not "choose" them from all the other nations? What about all the things He gave them, all the... prophets ...)

Rom 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; (Now for the first illustration... What is Paul illustrating? That just because you claim to be Jewish doesn't mean you are a true Jew. God hasn't failed the nation of Israel. For not all who believe themselves related are on the same level.)

7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." :8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

The nation of Israel has two components, those who will inherit the promise(Received Christ), and the rest who are children of the flesh and get no inheritance.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON." 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." (Have we changed what the illustrations are for yet? Is Paul still talking about how God can choose not to work with Israel now and work instead with Christians? No, right? The illustration shows that God is righteous to choose to stop working with the Israelites in spite of the position they were born into. God has done it before.)

13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

(An interesting side note: Do you know how a man in Jesus day disinherited a natural born son and gave the inheritance to a younger son? The legal wording is exactly like what you see above. The question is, is Esau in heaven? The topic is not the eternal life or being sent to hell at all, it's about who receives the inheritance, about who is in charge of the family, about who God will work with. It's about how God can take the group that should have inherited everything, the nation of Israel, and give those things to the true Israel, the Christians... we are still discussing how God can be righteous to set aside His first born nation for us.

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

(Have we discussed salvation here in any way? The salvation of Israel as a whole maybe? No, not really. We are on the topic of how God could set aside Israel and work with us instead, regardless of how He worked them prior.

(Does God raise up nations to show His power? Did He raise up the nation of Israel to show the world His power? Did the topic change? Are we still talking about how God could spend all of the Old Testament raising up Israel, and how He could stop? No new reason for the illustrations has been given, so we are still on the nation of Israel no longer being God's people, no longer receiving the blessings of the first born ...)

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

(Again, did we leave the topic? Are we now discussing individual salvation, or are we still on the topic of God raising up nations and choosing to display His power through what He does and doesn't do with them? If we are still on nations, did He give Pharaoh and the Egyptians great power? They were the most powerful nation on the earth. Did He harden Pharaoh? Yes. But if you read the account, Pharaoh hardened his own heart against God first... God just added to Pharaoh's own choices. Does this talk about Pharaoh's individual salvation, or is this again about raising up a nation giving them great power and then shutting them down because God chooses what to do with the nations? If there is a change of topic, show me where it is? Was it just Pharaoh who was raised up to show God's glory and power, or was it the entire nation that He raised up and then shut down? Was the nation of Egypt destroyed? Pretty much. Was the nation of Israel pretty much destroyed? Pretty much. If God did not spare the nation of Israel, but cut them off for unbelief, should we not pay attention lest we also fall?


Rom 9:23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" 26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

(Now Paul discusses the other "Nations" who have received mercy, i.e. the Gentiles. There is a portion saved from each, the Gentiles and Israel. individuals not the entire nation. We are from all the nations, including Israel. But alas, it is only a small portion of those who will switch sides.)

Rom 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28 FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."29 And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."

(Back on topic. The NATION of Israel losing it's position and the Gentiles inheriting it.)
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

(We are still discussing the nation of Israel verses the nations of the Gentiles, per the verses just prior, right?)

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
(Again the topic is what nations God will work through or not, and why Israel is now on the wrong side of things.)

Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

(Did we switch to individual salvation here, or are we still on the topic of Nations, gentiles, Israel, raising up NATIONS, putting down NATIONS, how God is just for doing as He wills with the NATIONS? Do you find fault with how God has responded to the Nation of Israel? Do you find fault with Him choosing to work through the Gentiles now? He raised up the Nation of Egypt and destroyed most of them. Does He have the right?

Rom 9:24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

(Even though the "Nations" are seeing the disinheritance of one group and the raising up of the other, remnants of both groups will inherit salvation.)

25 As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"

( The topic is still the nations here. Not individuals. That's the context.)

26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD." 27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28 FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY." 29 And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."

(Only a remnant of the nation of Israel will be saved. We are still on the topic of Nations and what God chooses to do with them.)

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Ultimately, individual salvation is based on who believes in Him and who doesn't. The disposition of nations, raising them up, using them to display God's power, bringing them to their knees ... that is God's choice.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

But how did most of the nation of Israel miss the truth? It has to do with the Methodology they use to get to truth. They go to scripture to justify what they want to believe "as" truth, and indeed, those that do so always find proof for their beliefs and reasons to disbelieve everything else. Every belief group that believes themselves to be Christians can and does find justification for their beliefs in scripture.

Now for some reasons why God has done this.
Rom 10:19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU." 20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME." 21 But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."

We are still on the topic of nations and how come God could choose to cut off the nation and only a few individuals within that group are saved ...

Rom 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

Does being a part of a nation God is no longer working with, that He chooses to set aside guarantee that you are going to be lost and headed for hell? No. The setting aside of the nation of Israel is designed to make them jealous and want to return to God. Yes, the nation, as a whole, rejected Christ, but there is a remnant that has a different destiny based on their acceptance or rejection of the truth.

14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

The nation of Israel did not fear God. They did not believe. They were broken off for their choices. Yes, they were punished for their choices, and yes, we are rewarded for making the opposite choice. But remember, if we, the Gentile nations fail in the same way, expect God to give the EXACT SAME judgments He gave to them, to us. Does this explain the state of America right now? I think so ...,
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Israel's status as a nation, whether they are raised up or not, or whether God puts the Gentile nations down again all depends on the people within those nations.

 

[Context1]

The key is to separate the 2 different perspectives: God’s Perspective (in the Mind of God) and Man’s Perspective (in the mind of Man).

1st perspective from the omnipotent Power of God, the Creator of Heavens and Earth (in the Mind of God)- The Doctrine of Unconditional Election is TRUE in the omnipotent power of God, the Creator of Heavens and Earth. Only the Sovereign God have the omnipotent power to unconditional elected a person without the help of human-it is a gift of God so that no one can boast! (God does not consult us in the affairs of Unconditional Election, God is Sovereign,Let God be God)

2nd perspective from the understanding of man on God’s omnipotence (in the mind of Man) - Since God does not tell us whether the person is unconditional elected by HIM and we cannot know What God Knows in HIS Mind about this person is unconditional elected. Therefore in our human mind, we can only conclude "Doctrine of Unconditional Election" is Not True which is the Correct perspective in our human understanding.

But from the omnipotent power of God (in the Mind of God), "Doctrine of Unconditional Election" is TRUE. Two different perspectives, one from the omnipotent power of God (in the Mind of God) and one from our human understanding (in the mind of Man) on God’s omnipotence, Both are Correct!

When we mixed and combined Two different perspectives together to understand and explain, and it will result in confusion and argument.

 

[Clare73]

Hi all,

I would like to politely seek your view on this. This chapter has troubled me many times over. I was originally from view (2) below, but after re-reading Romans 9 many times and even noting the response that Paul gives to the anticipated reactions ("What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!), I am gravitating towards view (1) based on what I understand from the chapter. However, this conflicts with my understanding of a loving God who wants everyone to be saved.

What is your view?

1. God has already chosen to save some and not to save others even before creation, when He created them. Those who are chosen are the elect. The vessels of dishonour are created for God to show His wrath on them.

OR

2. Everyone who believes in Christ will be saved - hence the decision lies on the person and not God. And since God already knew who would believe Him and who would reject Him ahead of time, so He predestined those whom He knew who would believe Him to be the elect.

God's election is sovereign based solely in his right to do so, as was the election of Jacob, based on nothing but his choice.

Keeping in mind that Adam's rebellion caused us as his progeny to be born as God's enemies (Romans 5:8), in condemnation (Romans 5:18) and by nature (birth) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

In his great goodness , mercy and at extremely high cost to himself, God has chosen to save some but not all. Paul tells us why not all: to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy (Romans 9:23). I suggest that means that as the meaning of good cannot be known without evil to which to compare it, so God's goodness and mercy to the elect cannot be truly seen without the existence of that from which they were delivered.
I suggest that those who were not elected but left as "objects of wrath" are not elected so they can serve as a foil (a contrast to set off election to advantage).

And now to "God wants everyone to be saved."
God's will is that all men be saved through the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4), not by some other means, and they are--through faith in the truth of Jesus Christ's atoning work for the remission of their sin.