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Romans 9 on Election

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by mrdp, Jun 20, 2021.

What is your view?

  1. View 1

    57.1%
  2. View 2

    42.9%
  1. mrdp

    mrdp New Member

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    Hi all,

    I would like to politely seek your view on this. This chapter has troubled me many times over. I was originally from view (2) below, but after re-reading Romans 9 many times and even noting the response that Paul gives to the anticipated reactions ("What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!), I am gravitating towards view (1) based on what I understand from the chapter. However, this conflicts with my understanding of a loving God who wants everyone to be saved.

    What is your view?

    1. God has already chosen to save some and not to save others even before creation, when He created them. Those who are chosen are the elect. The vessels of dishonour are created for God to show His wrath on them.

    OR

    2. Everyone who believes in Christ will be saved - hence the decision lies on the person and not God. And since God already knew who would believe Him and who would reject Him ahead of time, so He presestined those whom He knew who would believe Him to be the elect.
     
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  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    The correct answer might be #3 or #4. That is to say that there are other alternatives which some Christians and Christian churches accept. Quite possibly, your indecision might be resolved if you looked into this topic a bit more deeply.
     
  3. sandman

    sandman Senior Member

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    I voted # 2 …that is the closest answer to what we know as truth.

    You have to keep in mind when reading that section (chapter 9 and 12) Paul (by revelation) is addressing Israel, and then addresses the Gentiles a bit in chapter 11.
     
  4. mrdp

    mrdp New Member

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    I tried to look into this as far as my time off work would allow me, and I found Molinism probably the closest to what I believe. However it is not about what I believe, but what the Bible says. And currently it seems to be saying #1 for me, hence to see if I am reading something wrong.

    Separately, if you could share your thoughts and beliefs for #3 and #4 as well, it would be greatly insightful and I can include it in the poll as options if required.

    Thank you for your reply!
     
  5. mrdp

    mrdp New Member

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    Hi Sandman, thank you for your response. I will try to re-read it in the light you mentioned again. But just to check - does it mean you are implying that God has one standard for Israel and one standard for Gentiles when it comes to Election? Thanks and GBU!
     
  6. sandman

    sandman Senior Member

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    Not really a standard ...Just dealing with them in light of their culture, tradition, laws, and basic refusal to walk in light of the of the truth the age of grace .....the one body.
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Hello! This is a complicated subject that has produced much controversy over the years. That's why I don't feel that a quick answer from me would be advisable. I also do not want to tell you which view is right, but I did want to say that there are other views besides the two you gave us. They all take account of the words of Scripture, of course, so it's a matter of interpretation (of which you are aware already).

    The best I thought I could do was alert you to the fact that there are other answers. Your #1 and #2 are, in fact, close to being at the two poles of the range of opinion; there are several other views that are less extreme than those.

    You have obviously spent a lot of time looking into this subject, so I know that you are not disinterested in study. I urge you therefore to look more closely into the subject and you may find your answer.

    You've read the Bible, but have you read what Bible scholars and commentators have to say about it? Or what the historic divisions among Christians who tended to believe in predestination, but not exactly the same view of it, had to say?
     
  8. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    I voted View 2

    View 1 creates a distorted view of Gods love .... dismisses choice (of which we have - He created His intelligent beings with choice). True love requires choice. One can not force one to love another one (God knows this ... we know this).

    Also View 1 dismisses or skews Gods foreknowledge.

    God knew/knows what the choices will be .... but does not make the choices for anyone.

    God created all His intelligent beings (angels as well) and put them in the position of choice ... but did not make their choices for them.

    Joshua 24

    Choose This Day Whom You Will Serve - Joshua 24:15.

    Choice is all over His Word.

    View 1 - no love in it.

    Other issues with View 1 as well ... but I'll stop here.
     
  9. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    There is a progression of events far beyond Romans 9. However Romans 9 shows the primacy of Israel in God's plan.
     
  10. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Welcome! I am #2. Free to choose to believe. Be blessed.
     
  11. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are correct things in both 1. and 2. And there are things not accurate in 1. and 2. . . . I would say.

    My 3. includes > God is in control, and "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16).
     
  12. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    I'd say keep reading and ignore the responses given.

    You certainly do not need any help understanding the Scriptures properly, if you're His...
    You have His Spirit for that ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ).

    However, for the record, I voted # 1, and I didn't arrive at that view through anything other than my own careful study of God's word over many years.
    All I found that I needed to do, was to obey the Lord's commands here:

    " Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
    2 as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
    3 if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious."
    ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 ).

    " Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

    I see that View # 1 creates a specific view of God's love... where He loved Jacob, and hated Esau ( Romans 9:13 ), hates the worker of iniquity ( Psalms 5:5-6, Psalms 11:5 ) and loves the righteous...those who have been made righteous by the blood of His Son.
    He blesses some ( who do not deserve it, based on His mercy and grace ), and curses others ( who do deserve it, based on His holiness and justice ), and Jesus Christ grants eternal life to as many as were given to Him by His Father ( John 17:2 ).

    It also describes foreknowledge as being in context with Jeremiah 1:5 and Psalms 139....where he specifically "knew", or set His love on someone before He created them;
    Not just knowing "about" something ( or someone's decision ), but actually "knowing" them, in a loving way, before-hand....when He wrote their names in His Son's Book of Life.

    In the end, He only casts into the Lake of Fire those whom He does not love ( and that His Son did not die for ), and never curses those that are His adopted children through His choosing to save them (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

    They were chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).



    May He bless you greatly and in many ways.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
  13. Humble_Disciple

    Humble_Disciple Well-Known Member

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    This is how William Lane Craig interprets Romans 9:



    Please note that Craig isn't saying it's Option 1 or Option 2 but instead that Romans 9 is saying something else altogether.

    As for myself, I agree with Option 1, not just because Calvin taught it, but because Augustine and Luther taught it as well:

    Please look again at Romans 9:11.

    If God elects independently of any foreseen good or evil, that should include one's free-willed choice of belief or unbelief as well.

    While this might seem unfair, we should remember that God's ways are not our ways.

     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  14. Humble_Disciple

    Humble_Disciple Well-Known Member

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    Rather than being troubled by Romans 9, Luther taught that we should be comforted by it, knowing that God has unconditionally elected us unto salvation, irrespective of any merit of our own whatsoever, (including the free-willed choice to believe, which he taught was impossible due to original sin):

    This teaching of conditional election is not based on Romans 9. Instead, it's based on the Arminian interpretation of 1 Peter 1:1-2 and Romans 8:29-30, that God predestines us based on His foreknowledge of our free-willed choice to believe.

    Please keep in mind that neither 1 Peter 1:1-2 nor Romans 8:29-30 explicitly support the Arminian position.

    Throughout the Bible, the word "know" means to love, so those who believe in unconditional election interpret 1 Peter 1:1-2 and Romans 8:29-30 to mean that God predestines based on whom He chooses to love, just as God chose to love Jacob but not Essau.

    Those who are not among God's elect are simply left to their own sins:

    Some people have an aversion to predestination because they think it means God determines every little thing that ever happens. As Martin Luther explains, we have some measure of free will in all the choices we make, except for the decision to believe the Gospel and come to Christ:

    If we are saved by grace alone, then faith is entirely a gift received by Christ, rather than the result of our own effort to believe. Even if we wanted to believe in the Gospel without the Holy Spirit's help, we wouldn't be able to do so, due to our fallen state.

    On the other hand, those who are not among God's elect are deserving of hell, because it was their free-willed choice to sin. Rather than complaining that God has chosen to save some and not others, we should be thankful that God has chosen to save anyone at all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  15. Humble_Disciple

    Humble_Disciple Well-Known Member

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    Another reason why we should be encouraged, rather than troubled, by Romans 9 is because it makes evangelism easier.

    When we preach the Gospel to unbelievers, we need not worry about whether or not we are persuasive enough in our presentation, because God will enable faith in the ones we've preached whom He chooses to call.



    The hearing of the Gospel is the means to which faith is awakened in God's elect. All we need to do is preach to everyone equally, and leave the rest to God.
     
  16. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Romans 9 seems to be addressing the calling and reconciliation of the remnant of Israelites living in the region of Galilee, that was once the Northern Kingdom, the "house of Israel".
     
  17. Humble_Disciple

    Humble_Disciple Well-Known Member

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  18. Humble_Disciple

    Humble_Disciple Well-Known Member

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    With our limited human minds, we are in no position to question why God chooses to save some and not others.

    If Romans 9 really worries you, then perhaps you should be supporting a mission organization, since hearing the Gospel is the means of awakening faith in God's elect.

    I donate to India National Inland Mission:


    If you donate to an overseas charity, your dollars will stretch further, because their cost of living is less than ours:

    Your Dollar Goes Further Overseas | GiveWell
     
  19. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Many antichrists out there that prey on the idea of GOD's omnipotence.

    If He is The GOD (and He is), and He has the ability to know everything anyone will ever do beforehand, doesn't He also have the ability to not want to know what each soul will do beforehand?

    How else would it be free will? He could have made us robots, forcing us to love Him, but that wouldn't real love. We have to have a free will choice to love Him for it to be real love.

    Also, if there was no free will, even in the old world before Satan rebelled, how then could have Satan rebelled in coveting God's Throne back then? The OT prophets tell us that Satan was originally perfect in his ways in following God, guarding His throne.

    So what about those in His Word that are called and chosen before the foundation of the world? That's a much deeper subject, but if you notice in Romans 9, Apostle Paul goes in this a bit. He showed likewise with God's chosen, He also rejected others, like Esau, and Pharaoh (hardened his heart against the children of Israel to work His Plan).

    Does that mean Esau and Pharaoh can't be saved, and are doomed to the lake of fire? God forbid, no. Like Paul said there, He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, so who are we to question God? Like Paul said, He has the power over the clay, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor. (This means if your life is blessed in Christ Jesus, you had better thank Him!).

    In Jude 1 and 2 Peter 2, we are shown the subject about the "brute beasts", a people which were setup for this world to work the negative side of God's Plan. Jude even says these were 'ordained' to that condemnation to work against Christ. Does that mean none of them can be saved? Again no, because the GWT Judgment into the future "lake of fire" is not until the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20. No flesh-born has been judged and sentenced to perish yet. Only Satan and his angels are, not any others yet.
     
  20. martin-luther2

    martin-luther2 Active Member Supporter

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    I would choose #3
    God has chosen to save some before creation and those he chose will believe in Jesus Christ.

    "Rather than being troubled by Romans 9, Luther taught that we should be comforted by it, knowing that God has unconditionally elected us unto salvation, " [ref: Post 14]
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2021
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