Romans 9 on Election

[mrdp]

Hi all,

I would like to politely seek your view on this. This chapter has troubled me many times over. I was originally from view (2) below, but after re-reading Romans 9 many times and even noting the response that Paul gives to the anticipated reactions ("What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!), I am gravitating towards view (1) based on what I understand from the chapter. However, this conflicts with my understanding of a loving God who wants everyone to be saved.

What is your view?

1. God has already chosen to save some and not to save others even before creation, when He created them. Those who are chosen are the elect. The vessels of dishonour are created for God to show His wrath on them.

OR

2. Everyone who believes in Christ will be saved - hence the decision lies on the person and not God. And since God already knew who would believe Him and who would reject Him ahead of time, so He presestined those whom He knew who would believe Him to be the elect.

 

[Albion]

The correct answer might be #3 or #4. That is to say that there are other alternatives which some Christians and Christian churches accept. Quite possibly, your indecision might be resolved if you looked into this topic a bit more deeply.

 

[sandman]

I voted # 2 …that is the closest answer to what we know as truth.

You have to keep in mind when reading that section (chapter 9 and 12) Paul (by revelation) is addressing Israel, and then addresses the Gentiles a bit in chapter 11.

 

[mrdp]

The correct answer might be #3 or #4. That is to say that there are other alternatives which some Christians and Christian churches accept. Quite possibly, your indecision might be resolved if you looked into this topic a bit more deeply.

I tried to look into this as far as my time off work would allow me, and I found Molinism probably the closest to what I believe. However it is not about what I believe, but what the Bible says. And currently it seems to be saying #1 for me, hence to see if I am reading something wrong.

Separately, if you could share your thoughts and beliefs for #3 and #4 as well, it would be greatly insightful and I can include it in the poll as options if required.

Thank you for your reply!

 

[mrdp]

I voted # 2 …that is the closest answer to what we know as truth.

You have to keep in mind when reading that section (chapter 9 and 12) Paul (by revelation) is addressing Israel, and then addresses the Gentiles a bit in chapter 11.

Hi Sandman, thank you for your response. I will try to re-read it in the light you mentioned again. But just to check - does it mean you are implying that God has one standard for Israel and one standard for Gentiles when it comes to Election? Thanks and GBU!

 

[sandman]

Hi Sandman, thank you for your response. I will try to re-read it in the light you mentioned again. But just to check - does it mean you are implying that God has one standard for Israel and one standard for Gentiles when it comes to Election? Thanks and GBU!

Not really a standard ...Just dealing with them in light of their culture, tradition, laws, and basic refusal to walk in light of the of the truth the age of grace .....the one body.

 

[Albion]

Hello! This is a complicated subject that has produced much controversy over the years. That's why I don't feel that a quick answer from me would be advisable. I also do not want to tell you which view is right, but I did want to say that there are other views besides the two you gave us. They all take account of the words of Scripture, of course, so it's a matter of interpretation (of which you are aware already).

The best I thought I could do was alert you to the fact that there are other answers. Your #1 and #2 are, in fact, close to being at the two poles of the range of opinion; there are several other views that are less extreme than those.

You have obviously spent a lot of time looking into this subject, so I know that you are not disinterested in study. I urge you therefore to look more closely into the subject and you may find your answer.

You've read the Bible, but have you read what Bible scholars and commentators have to say about it? Or what the historic divisions among Christians who tended to believe in predestination, but not exactly the same view of it, had to say?

 

[eleos1954]

Hi all,

I would like to politely seek your view on this. This chapter has troubled me many times over. I was originally from view (2) below, but after re-reading Romans 9 many times and even noting the response that Paul gives to the anticipated reactions ("What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!), I am gravitating towards view (1) based on what I understand from the chapter. However, this conflicts with my understanding of a loving God who wants everyone to be saved.

What is your view?

1. God has already chosen to save some and not to save others even before creation, when He created them. Those who are chosen are the elect. The vessels of dishonour are created for God to show His wrath on them.

OR

2. Everyone who believes in Christ will be saved - hence the decision lies on the person and not God. And since God already knew who would believe Him and who would reject Him ahead of time, so He presestined those whom He knew who would believe Him to be the elect.

I voted View 2

View 1 creates a distorted view of Gods love .... dismisses choice (of which we have - He created His intelligent beings with choice). True love requires choice. One can not force one to love another one (God knows this ... we know this).

Also View 1 dismisses or skews Gods foreknowledge.

God knew/knows what the choices will be .... but does not make the choices for anyone.

God created all His intelligent beings (angels as well) and put them in the position of choice ... but did not make their choices for them.

Joshua 24

Choose This Day Whom You Will Serve - Joshua 24:15.

Choice is all over His Word.

View 1 - no love in it.

Other issues with View 1 as well ... but I'll stop here.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Hi all,

I would like to politely seek your view on this. This chapter has troubled me many times over. I was originally from view (2) below, but after re-reading Romans 9 many times and even noting the response that Paul gives to the anticipated reactions ("What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!), I am gravitating towards view (1) based on what I understand from the chapter. However, this conflicts with my understanding of a loving God who wants everyone to be saved.

What is your view?

1. God has already chosen to save some and not to save others even before creation, when He created them. Those who are chosen are the elect. The vessels of dishonour are created for God to show His wrath on them.

OR

2. Everyone who believes in Christ will be saved - hence the decision lies on the person and not God. And since God already knew who would believe Him and who would reject Him ahead of time, so He presestined those whom He knew who would believe Him to be the elect.

There is a progression of events far beyond Romans 9. However Romans 9 shows the primacy of Israel in God's plan.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hi all,

I would like to politely seek your view on this. This chapter has troubled me many times over. I was originally from view (2) below, but after re-reading Romans 9 many times and even noting the response that Paul gives to the anticipated reactions ("What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!), I am gravitating towards view (1) based on what I understand from the chapter. However, this conflicts with my understanding of a loving God who wants everyone to be saved.

What is your view?

1. God has already chosen to save some and not to save others even before creation, when He created them. Those who are chosen are the elect. The vessels of dishonour are created for God to show His wrath on them.

OR

2. Everyone who believes in Christ will be saved - hence the decision lies on the person and not God. And since God already knew who would believe Him and who would reject Him ahead of time, so He presestined those whom He knew who would believe Him to be the elect.

Welcome! I am #2. Free to choose to believe. Be blessed.

 

[com7fy8]

There are correct things in both 1. and 2. And there are things not accurate in 1. and 2. . . . I would say.

My 3. includes > God is in control, and "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16).

 

[Navair2]

This chapter has troubled me many times over. I was originally from view (2) below, but after re-reading Romans 9 many times and even noting the response that Paul gives to the anticipated reactions ("What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!), I am gravitating towards view (1) based on what I understand from the chapter. However, this conflicts with my understanding of a loving God who wants everyone to be saved.

I'd say keep reading and ignore the responses given.

You certainly do not need any help understanding the Scriptures properly, if you're His...
You have His Spirit for that ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ).

However, for the record, I voted # 1, and I didn't arrive at that view through anything other than my own careful study of God's word over many years.
All I found that I needed to do, was to obey the Lord's commands here:

" Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 ).

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

I see that View # 1 creates a specific view of God's love... where He loved Jacob, and hated Esau ( Romans 9:13 ), hates the worker of iniquity ( Psalms 5:5-6, Psalms 11:5 ) and loves the righteous...those who have been made righteous by the blood of His Son.
He blesses some ( who do not deserve it, based on His mercy and grace ), and curses others ( who do deserve it, based on His holiness and justice ), and Jesus Christ grants eternal life to as many as were given to Him by His Father ( John 17:2 ).

It also describes foreknowledge as being in context with Jeremiah 1:5 and Psalms 139....where he specifically "knew", or set His love on someone before He created them;
Not just knowing "about" something ( or someone's decision ), but actually "knowing" them, in a loving way, before-hand....when He wrote their names in His Son's Book of Life.

In the end, He only casts into the Lake of Fire those whom He does not love ( and that His Son did not die for ), and never curses those that are His adopted children through His choosing to save them (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

They were chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).



May He bless you greatly and in many ways.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

The correct answer might be #3 or #4. That is to say that there are other alternatives which some Christians and Christian churches accept. Quite possibly, your indecision might be resolved if you looked into this topic a bit more deeply.

This is how William Lane Craig interprets Romans 9:

Please note that Craig isn't saying it's Option 1 or Option 2 but instead that Romans 9 is saying something else altogether.

I am gravitating towards view (1) based on what I understand from the chapter. However, this conflicts with my understanding of a loving God who wants everyone to be saved.

As for myself, I agree with Option 1, not just because Calvin taught it, but because Augustine and Luther taught it as well:

Augustine of Hippo produced a first concise interpretation of Romans 9 to which reformed commentators approach Romans 9:14-25. Expositing Romans 9:16, Augustine noted that God “loved Jacob in unmerited mercy, yet hated Esau with merited justice”. He explained,
Since this judgment [of wrath] was due them both, the former learned from what happened to the other that the fact that he had not, with equal merit, incurred the same penalty gave him no ground to boast of his own distinctive merits (Augustine 2005: n.p)
None, according Augustine, “is set free saved by unmerited mercy” and none “is damned save by a merited condemnation.”(ibid). God chose some individuals to bestow His mercy and others, the not chosen, His justice.
Augustine expounded,
Certainly wrath is not repaid unless it is due, lest there be unrighteousness with God; but mercy, even when it is bestowed, and not due, is not unrighteousness with God. And hence, let the vessels of mercy understand how freely mercy is afforded to them, because to the vessels of wrath with whom they have common cause and measure of perdition, is repaid wrath, righteous and due. (Augustine 1887: 423–4)
Martin Luther understood Romans 9:15 to mean, “I will have mercy on whom I intended to have mercy, or whom I predestinated for mercy.”(Luther 1976: 139), He went further,
“I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion” (9:15). That means: I will give grace, in time and life, to him concerning whom I purposed from eternity to show mercy. On him will I have compassion and forgive his sin in time and life whom I forgave and pardoned from all eternity.(ibid)
Reformed Approach to Romans 9:14-25

Please look again at Romans 9:11.

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

If God elects independently of any foreseen good or evil, that should include one's free-willed choice of belief or unbelief as well.

While this might seem unfair, we should remember that God's ways are not our ways.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. - Romans 9:15

 

[Humble_Disciple]

This chapter has troubled me many times over.

Rather than being troubled by Romans 9, Luther taught that we should be comforted by it, knowing that God has unconditionally elected us unto salvation, irrespective of any merit of our own whatsoever, (including the free-willed choice to believe, which he taught was impossible due to original sin):

Is there injustice on God’s part (in predestination)? By no means! The apostle gives no other reason as to why there is not injustice with God than to say: 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy' (Romans 9:15), which is the same as saying: 'I will have mercy on whom I wish,' or to him who is predestined to receive mercy. This is a harsh answer for the proud and those who think they know everything, but for the meek and the humble it is sweet and pleasing, because they despair of themselves; and thus God takes them up...
This statement seems hard and cruel, but it is full of sweet comfort, because God has taken upon Himself all our help and salvation, in order that He alone might wholly be the Author of our salvation.
Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Luther: Have "Ineffable Joy" if You're Predestination to Hell (Part Two)

Everyone who believes in Christ will be saved - hence the decision lies on the person and not God. And since God already knew who would believe Him and who would reject Him ahead of time, so He presestined those whom He knew who would believe Him to be the elect.

This teaching of conditional election is not based on Romans 9. Instead, it's based on the Arminian interpretation of 1 Peter 1:1-2 and Romans 8:29-30, that God predestines us based on His foreknowledge of our free-willed choice to believe.

Please keep in mind that neither 1 Peter 1:1-2 nor Romans 8:29-30 explicitly support the Arminian position.

Throughout the Bible, the word "know" means to love, so those who believe in unconditional election interpret 1 Peter 1:1-2 and Romans 8:29-30 to mean that God predestines based on whom He chooses to love, just as God chose to love Jacob but not Essau.

Those who are not among God's elect are simply left to their own sins:

So God actively chooses whom to condemn, but because he knows they will have a sinful nature, the way he foreordains them is to simply let them be – this is sometimes called "preterition."[22] Therefore, this foreordination to wrath is passive in nature (unlike God's active predestination of his elect where he needs to overcome their sinful nature).
Predestination in Calvinism - Wikipedia

Some people have an aversion to predestination because they think it means God determines every little thing that ever happens. As Martin Luther explains, we have some measure of free will in all the choices we make, except for the decision to believe the Gospel and come to Christ:

Luther argued that the human will is bound, that there is no free will—at least not in things above, that is, in things pertaining to salvation. While people recoil at this, because we want to be free, because we want to play some role in our salvation, there is real freedom in recognizing our bondage and in receiving our salvation entirely as gift, by promise, as dead men and women brought to life like Lazarus in the tomb. We can’t mess it up. It doesn’t depend on us. We don’t live under a yoke or burden any longer—anxious, busy, fearful, desperate to even out the scales of justice. No, we’re set free to live as those loved, redeemed, and given a world back as gift, to be enjoyed and used for our neighbor.

Luther does grant we have freedom in things below. We can choose a Ford or Chevy, a Big Mac or a Whopper, Apple or Microsoft, apples or oranges. When it comes to our salvation, though, our freedom comes from Christ’s free will, from the fact that He freely chose to become Man, to suffer, die, and rise for us to live and move and have our being in Him, by grace, with joy and peace, even in suffering. Trying to work our way back into our salvation, therefore, is to undermine and under-appreciate Christ’s work. Serving so that He will love us is to insult His love, which already is ours, was ours even when we were His enemies. To seek freedom in slavery, slavery to sin, our natural human condition, where we freely choose how to sin, perhaps, but nevertheless can only sin, even with our best works, or to seek it in naturally human religion, which knows only the ways of the law and fallen reason, is to fail to understand and embrace the true freedom Christ was bound, beaten, nailed to a tree, and died to give us.
Luther’s Bondage of the Will: An Uncompromising Gospel | 1517

If we are saved by grace alone, then faith is entirely a gift received by Christ, rather than the result of our own effort to believe. Even if we wanted to believe in the Gospel without the Holy Spirit's help, we wouldn't be able to do so, due to our fallen state.

On the other hand, those who are not among God's elect are deserving of hell, because it was their free-willed choice to sin. Rather than complaining that God has chosen to save some and not others, we should be thankful that God has chosen to save anyone at all.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

I would like to politely seek your view on this. This chapter has troubled me many times over.

Another reason why we should be encouraged, rather than troubled, by Romans 9 is because it makes evangelism easier.

When we preach the Gospel to unbelievers, we need not worry about whether or not we are persuasive enough in our presentation, because God will enable faith in the ones we've preached whom He chooses to call.

The hearing of the Gospel is the means to which faith is awakened in God's elect. All we need to do is preach to everyone equally, and leave the rest to God.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Romans 9 seems to be addressing the calling and reconciliation of the remnant of Israelites living in the region of Galilee, that was once the Northern Kingdom, the "house of Israel".

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Romans 9 seems to be addressing the calling and reconciliation of the remnant of Israelites living in the region of Galilee, that was once the Northern Kingdom, the "house of Israel".

In this clip, James White explains that the context of Romans 9 is Romans 8, where Paul is talking about God's elect.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

I would like to politely seek your view on this. This chapter has troubled me many times over.

With our limited human minds, we are in no position to question why God chooses to save some and not others.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts."
Isaiah 55:8-9

If Romans 9 really worries you, then perhaps you should be supporting a mission organization, since hearing the Gospel is the means of awakening faith in God's elect.

I donate to India National Inland Mission:

INIM, established in 1964, a multi-faceted, indigenous evangelism and church-planting ministry located in New Delhi, India.

The Mission was formed by Dr. Paul Pillai a former Orthodox Hindu...

For outreach purposes, INIM have recently established a Drug Rehabilitation Center and several ongoing Mobile Medical Outreaches .
The Mission and its various ministry outreaches endure regular persecution from Islamic and Hindu Extremists groups.

India National Inland Mission, Inc. ("INIM") is headquartered in New Delhi, India, with outreach concentrated in the largely unevangelized northern states of India. INIM includes Grace Bible College for the training of native evangelists who go out into North India and establish churches. The organization also maintains a children's home for orphans. K.V. Paul Pillai, founder and president, conducts evangelistic services frequently throughout North India. INIM was incorporated in California and distributes contributions raised in the US to India Inland Mission in New Delhi, India.
India National Inland Mission - MinistryWatch.com

If you donate to an overseas charity, your dollars will stretch further, because their cost of living is less than ours:

Your Dollar Goes Further Overseas | GiveWell

 

[Davy]

Hi all,

I would like to politely seek your view on this. This chapter has troubled me many times over. I was originally from view (2) below, but after re-reading Romans 9 many times and even noting the response that Paul gives to the anticipated reactions ("What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!), I am gravitating towards view (1) based on what I understand from the chapter. However, this conflicts with my understanding of a loving God who wants everyone to be saved.

What is your view?

1. God has already chosen to save some and not to save others even before creation, when He created them. Those who are chosen are the elect. The vessels of dishonour are created for God to show His wrath on them.

OR

2. Everyone who believes in Christ will be saved - hence the decision lies on the person and not God. And since God already knew who would believe Him and who would reject Him ahead of time, so He presestined those whom He knew who would believe Him to be the elect.

Many antichrists out there that prey on the idea of GOD's omnipotence.

If He is The GOD (and He is), and He has the ability to know everything anyone will ever do beforehand, doesn't He also have the ability to not want to know what each soul will do beforehand?

How else would it be free will? He could have made us robots, forcing us to love Him, but that wouldn't real love. We have to have a free will choice to love Him for it to be real love.

Also, if there was no free will, even in the old world before Satan rebelled, how then could have Satan rebelled in coveting God's Throne back then? The OT prophets tell us that Satan was originally perfect in his ways in following God, guarding His throne.

So what about those in His Word that are called and chosen before the foundation of the world? That's a much deeper subject, but if you notice in Romans 9, Apostle Paul goes in this a bit. He showed likewise with God's chosen, He also rejected others, like Esau, and Pharaoh (hardened his heart against the children of Israel to work His Plan).

Does that mean Esau and Pharaoh can't be saved, and are doomed to the lake of fire? God forbid, no. Like Paul said there, He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, so who are we to question God? Like Paul said, He has the power over the clay, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor. (This means if your life is blessed in Christ Jesus, you had better thank Him!).

In Jude 1 and 2 Peter 2, we are shown the subject about the "brute beasts", a people which were setup for this world to work the negative side of God's Plan. Jude even says these were 'ordained' to that condemnation to work against Christ. Does that mean none of them can be saved? Again no, because the GWT Judgment into the future "lake of fire" is not until the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20. No flesh-born has been judged and sentenced to perish yet. Only Satan and his angels are, not any others yet.

 

[A_JAY]

I would choose #3
God has chosen to save some before creation and those he chose will believe in Jesus Christ.

"Rather than being troubled by Romans 9, Luther taught that we should be comforted by it, knowing that God has unconditionally elected us unto salvation, " [ref: Post 14]