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Romans 8:29 Foreknew Means Foreloved

Discussion in 'Semper Reformanda' started by Apologetic_Warrior, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    How do you come to these conclusions?
    God knew in advance that we would need a Savior and planned accordingly.
    God knew all of our needs before we did and planned accordingly.

    At my church one of the gentlemen there told us this story about prayer.
    He was on a trip, and a container underneath the camper was coming loose.
    His wife told him there was a strange noise coming from the camper so he pulled over and went to check it out.
    He had no idea what to do to secure this container. His wife said to pray about it, so he did.
    Once he was done praying he saw a short length of rope in the grass beside the road, it looked to be less than a foot. So he kicked it in frustration and to his surprise it was quite long, long enough to secure that container.
    God knew long before he did what he would need and where he would need it.
    God crowns the year with His goodness and all His paths drop fatness. Psalm 65:11
     
  2. twin1954

    twin1954 Baptist by the Bible

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    They are the simple conclusions to your theology. No one is so blind as a man who refuses to see.

    As I expected you completely ignored what I said about the topic of the thread. It is a common tactic from those who oppose the truth.
     
  3. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    No they are not simple conclusions to what I believe. They don't even make sense.
    What I believe, God foreknew who would trust Him and made plans accordingly before we were even in existence.
    God does not react to us, we react to Him.
    Everybody, including Satan reacts to what God planned.
    God made provision knowing we would disobey His command.
    How God could know who would believe, and then that person affecting others to believe and then those affecting still others. The logistics of this I can't comprehend. This increases His magnificence.

    No one is so blind as a man who refuses to see.
    No truer words have been spoken by you. I just wish you would open your eyes to see the truth.
     
  4. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Wise as always brother.

    Lets go through this once again.

    The following is a quote from The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, and a post from years ago by me:

    "Lets also refer to Rudolf Bultmann's work in this area:

    "In the NT, "proginwskein" is referred to God. His foreknowledge, however, is an election or foreordination of His people (Rom. 8:29; 11:2) or Christ (1 Pet. 1:20) (> ginwskw, 698, 706). In Pastor Hermae, mandata, 4, 3, 4 it simply means God's foreknowledge (cf. prognwstv in 2 Cl. 9:9). On the basis of prophecy the word "proginwskein" can be used of believers in 2 Pet. 3:17, also as Pastor Hermae, similitudines, 7,5 > eklegw. Another possible meaning in Greek is that of knowing earlier, i.e., than the time speaking (cf. Demosthenes of Athens, 29, 58; Aristotle, Rhetorica, II, 21, p. 1394b, 11; Josephus, Bella Judiacum, 6,8). This is found in Acts 26:5, where the meaning is strengthened by the addition of "anwqen." In Justin God's "proginwskein" is Hid foreknowledge (Apol. I, 28, 2 etc.) and the "proegnwsmenoi" are believers (Apol. I, 45, 1 etc.). The polemic against determinism, however, shows that the OT view has been abandoned (Dial., 140, 4). As One who simply knows beforehand, God is called "prognwstv" in Apol., I, 44, 11 etc. as is also Christ in Dial., 35, 7; 82, 1. There is also reference to prophetic foreknowledge in Apol., I, 43, 1; 49, 6 etc. Tatian, of Syria, in Oratio ad Graecos, 19, 3, speaks of Apollo in the same terms, so that what we have here is the Greek understanding."

    Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Edited by: Gerhard Kittel, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Vol. V, "prognwskein", p. 457, Rudolph Bultmann commenting."

    This word, is also the word we have that is used mostly by doctors. "Prognosis".

    The problem with this post is that it means God failed miserably.

    There are literally billions from the OT days that were not saved.

    Not to mention that God's plan also failed in our time.

    Of course, the typical response from Synergists would be that is because of mans "free-will".

    As seen by this reply:

    If, as most say, God looked foreword in time, saw who would or would not (Foresee) accept the Gospel, then scriptures lie in that God has respect for the man that accepts and believes, and no respect for the man who does not accept and believe. God has respect for the man who accepts and believes, exercises their "free-will" and God "elects" based on that.

    I agree with you brother in that there is a form of "prevenient grace" in that after conviction of the Holy Spirit, man is moved to accept and believe.

    But the idea that God exercises "prevenient grace" on mankind in general is laughable because history shows that there are men who were completely and totally "utterly depraved".

    I'm sorry, but "proginwskein" absolutely does not mean "foresee".

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  5. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    In Ezekiel 33 God told him he was to be a watchman and he was to warn the wicked to turn from there wicked ways because God did not want them to die.
    But, if they would not turn from there wicked ways they would die.

    God stated He didn't want these people to die, yet they would not turn from there wicked ways and died.
    According to what you are saying God failed.
    But God did not fail, the people failed God.
    So with every other person on earth, if they die, despite God not wanting them to die, God is not a failure, or His plan is not a failure. The people died because either they didn't hear the warning or they didn't heed the warning, they still died against God's will.
     
  6. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Let's be honest about the foreseen faith version of predestination.

    Many well intentioned Christians consider the foreseen faith view of predestination to be fair and unbiased, emphasizing God as just, because Christ died for all, in theory it is possible for all to be saved, all a person needs to do is choose Christ, those who continue in their sinful rejection will punished for choosing to reject Christ, where they could have chosen Christ, thereby doing no damage to the justice of God, nor the supposed notion of impartiality, all based on an assumed libertarian version of free will. Of course this also assumes that man, though fallen, is not so fallen that he cannot choose Christ, not so fallen that he cannot choose to please God. Sin is thought of as a sickness, and Christ is the remedy.

    There are several implications involved in the foreseen faith, the first is that because it is a view of "possibilities" (which involves "middle knowledge") and if those "possibilities" are really possible through a libertarian free will, it negates definite (accomplishment and achievement) and substitution from the atonement. In other words, nothing was accomplished or finished in the atonement (so far as individuals are concerned), it merely opened a door of possibilities under certain assumptions concerning the nature of man and implications of those assumptions.

    The second implication, is that because salvation is determined by man's choices, man is the sovereign determiner of his own salvation, of his acceptance or rejection of Christ. In this view of foreseen faith, God is not really doing the choosing at all, it is nonsense to even say God helps those who help themselves. Because in it, God ties his own hands, allowing the free will of man to do the deciding, allowing the free will of man to accept or reject. God can only be viewed as a observer of the corridors of time, watching events He chooses to be passive over, and only should a man make that all important choice, does God decide to give a little help to His new friends, while never imposing Himself or His will, always respecting "free will" as the sovereign.

    Now besides the problems already indicated there is another, how can a person hold onto the assumption of libertarian free will, and maintain that God foreknows all of those choices? Or stated differently, how can those choices be free and God still know them? If the omniscience of God is perfect and complete, then His knowledge is immutable, negating any middle knowledge so far as He is concerned, and also negating the assumption of "possibility". In other words, it is not possible to maintain the omniscience of God and immutability of God according to orthodox Christianity and maintain an atonement of undecided possibilities. If those decisions are free and possible, they are undecided, subject to change, and therefore unknowable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  7. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    This sounds reasonable.
    I would think of sin as more of a leprosy or cancer, not just a sickness like the flu.
    Why can't God who is omniscient know all of the choices that will be made.
    You are attempting to judge God's omniscience by human standards with human terms.
    I am fairly certain that God's intelligence is greater than every human put together who ever lived.
    That was an attempt at being funny, He is way more intelligent than all of us humans put together from Adam to the very last person who will ever live. I have faith God can figure it all out without to much trouble.

    I don't believe God helps those who help themselves.
    God helps those who can't help themselves.
    God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
    Throughout the Bible we continually see God offering man a choice. Choose life and live. Choose sin and die.
    To say that man does not have freewill IMO is just plain silly. There are so many verses telling man to choose.


    Not from God's point of view.
    To say that God made the choice for man, makes man a robot which God tells us in Psalm 32 He does not want.

    If you put a man into a room with no way out and tell him to remain in that room till you return. And you tell him that his staying in the room will prove his love for you.
    And then you come back some time later and find his corpse in the room and you say to yourself, "O how he loved me, he was willing to die to not disobey my command to stay in the room".

    Do you really think this man was able to exercise his freewill?

    God gave man freewill and He put 2 trees in the Garden to give man a chance to exercise his freewill to accept God's way or choose his own way.

    Adam chose death, that is his own way (Proverbs 14:12).
    God Gave Adam(man) dominion over the Earth, and Adam doomed all of us to death.
    God knew what Adam would do before He created the heavens and the Earth and planned accordingly.
    If God didn't give man freewill, why did He give Adam the oppurtunity to reject Him?
    Why put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden?
     
  8. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    While the Bible say's that we're DEAD in sins and trespasses.

    Oh He does, to the extent our choices are not free to roam outside the omniscience of God, they are not subject to the "chance" of "possibility".

    Not so, explaining a view I do not hold, and the futility of it, the reasoning of man behind it, which you seemed to pick up on. So far as "human terms" go, how else can we have a word from God, except in terms humans can understand? So they are analogical, comprehensible, while not exhaustive.

    To say the least..

    So glad to hear you've boarded the monergism ship.

    *looks around* And where are the Calvinists who deny we make choices? I would be interested if you could search for Scripture which speaks to "pleasing God", I think those are the choices we're most concerned with.

    Whoever said that man has no freedom in his choices? Not I, nor has any Calvinists. Fatalism is a secular strawman version that non-Calvinists like to burn, thinking they have won the day, back patting, hand clapping joy. But for the serious person, interested in truth, there are other solutions, other versions of free will, Biblical ones compatible with the responsibility of man and the Sovereignty of God.

    No, it makes God sovereign, gracious and merciful to choose anyone, because nobody deserves salvation. He would be just to allow us all to our just punishment. Since you think it fair to construct a robot strawman, I'll feed that strawman with fire from the Scriptures for your notions of free will to be consumed.

    2 Peter 1:20 "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (NKJV)

    Of course, not all of Scripture is prophecy, but major portions of it are. It seems to me this verse alone take the notion of libertarian free will and throws it to the floor, stomps on it, and holds it down. Prophecy covers an ocean of the Scriptures.

    I think you are engaging in the very thing you accuse me of, human reasoning, and unwittingly the god you describe is the god of deism. So far as the love of God goes, do you not think that God loved all the countless Christian martyrs including the apostles?

    Perhaps a quote from the Westminster Confession of Faith would be appropriate and sufficient response:

    Chapter IX: Of Free Will

    "1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil (Matt 17:12; Jas 1:14; Deut 30:19; Isa 7:11-12; John 5:40; Jas 4:7).

    2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God (Eccl 7:29; Gen 1:26; Phil 2:13; Col 3:10); but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it (Gen 2:16-17; 3:6).

    3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation (Rom 5:6; 8:7; John 6:44, 65; 15:5): so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good (Rom 3:10, 12), and dead in sin (Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13), is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto (John 6:44, 65; 3:3, 5-6; Eph 2:2-5; 1 Cor 2:14; Tit 3:3-5).

    4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin (Col 1:13; John 8:34, 36; Rom 6:6-7); and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good (Phil 2:13; Rom 6:18, 22); yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil (Gal 5:17; Rom 7:15, 18-19, 21, 23; 1 John 1:8, 10).

    5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only (Eph 4:13; Heb 12:23; 1 John 3:2; Jude 24; Rev 21:27)."
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  9. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Non sequitur.

    1) God told Ezekiel to go to whom?

    2) That also is the essence of what God said in Numbers.

    "The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." -Num. 14:18 (KJV)

    And that has always been His position, yet Kings and Chronicles is full of Kings that failed, sinned, repented, and died.

    Again, instead of jumping in, read what I posted. God does not want men to die, yet because of sin, they did, and still do.

    Your absolutely right. No argument from me.

    Again, your right. But, the fact remains that men and women, still die.

    As stated above, you forget:

    And here again, if what you say is truth, how do you explain that in the Old Testament, literally, billions upon billions died outside the will of God?

    Or was Jesus joking when He said:

    "salvation is of the Jews." -Jn. 4:22 (KJV)

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  10. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Throughout the OT and Gospels sin is pictured as leprosy or leaven. It infest everything it touches.
    Of course we are dead in trespasses and sins, but does this mean we cannot have any interaction with or see God?
    There were lost men in the OT who had entire conversations with God.
    Adam, who God made a sacrifice for after talking with him.
    Balaam, whom God did nothing for but stand in his way.

    If He knows every choice that will be made, all the possibilities are already taken care of.
    God doesn't see time as we do. He knows the end from the beginning. This does not mean He caused everything between to happen.
    So because you don't understand the extent of God's omniscience it just can't take into account all of the various permutations that could come about.

    Yet, you don't think He can figure 'possibilities' into His plans so He made the choice for us.
    I am so used to saying it that way that I didn't even think about it.
    I think of that statement like the sinner who has come to the end of himself and all that is left for him to do is cry out, "God be merciful to me a sinner".

    Like Hebrews 11:6?
    But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that comes to God must believe that He is and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
    You are probably going to say that faith is a gift from God. Ephesians 2:8
    But does God just give faith to some? No, faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
    The sower sows the Word on all types of soil, some the Seed works, some it works for a very short time, some it works a little longer until the vines choke it.
    But it is not the Sower who decides where the Seed will work.

    You say in one breath that man has choices, then the next you say only God makes the choices. Or you say man has limited choices that cannot go beyond God's omniscience.
    The problem is that faith comes by hearing the Word, and how shall they hear the Word unless a person goes and tells them the Word.
    Acts 8, Philip and the Ethiopian. The Ethiopian had the Word opened, but no to explain it to him, so Philip had to go and explain it. Why couldn't God just regenerate him without Philip?
    He clearly had a desire to find out what the Scripture meant.
    Cornelius and Peter come to mind from Acts 10.
    Peter had to be willing to go, and he probably would not have gone without the dream of the unclean animals.
    But he interpreted the dream correctly and heeded the Voice of God.
    But man had to be willing to speak it or write it down.
    When Peter says it did not come from the will of man, he is saying man did not think of prophecy on his own.
    God always uses people, but they must be willing. There are only a few instances where the subjects spoke unwilligly: Balaam when Balak wanted him to curse Israel.
    King Saul when he prophesied right before becoming king.
    But look at Ezekiel in the case of the dry bones.
    God told Ezekiel to speak to the bones so they could live.
    Even Ezekiel said God could just make the bones live, but God insisted that Ezekiel speak to the bones.
    God could spread the Word without us, but He chose to use man as vessels for His Word.
    Man with all his shortcomings and freewill to reject/accept God's will for his life.

    No, this was an analogy to make a point.
    Just as Adam without the forbidden tree would not have had a choice to accept/reject God so my man in the room did not have the ability to exercise his freewill to leave.
    I think you are intentionally confusing spiritual death with physical death. You have been around to long to not know the difference.
    When God told Ezekiel he was a watchman and if the people didn't listen they would die, God was not referring to physical death or life.
    If they heeded the message they could have lived. This is not referring to physically living forever.
    Why you would intentionally attempt to confuse that is beyond me.
    I have more respect for you than that.
     
  11. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    In the first place, before I take offense and jump all over what you said about me, let me inform you that I have been a born-again Christian, a Baptist, for 43 years. And a Calvinist since 2001 when I went to seminary.

    I am an Ordained Deacon, Elder, and licensed to preach.

    So I thank you not to make such statements again.

    In the second place, sin has/does, did and still will not only bring spiritual death but physical death. Just because your born again does not take away a person sin-nature.

    And one thing I have learned that you have not, is to read scripture in context.

    To whom was Ezekiel preaching to?

    Never said it did. Another assumption on your part.

    In the third place, I only spoke to show that what Ezekiel said was in reference to a particular people.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  12. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    I will also say this:

    To anybody, if you believe that I teach contrary to scripture, or I teach contrary to Calvinism, that I just flat out don't know what I'm talking about, let me know and I will bow out.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  13. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    I said:
    You said
    Why even bring physical death into this topic?
    Whether God is talking to Jew or Gentile, the message is the same.
    Repent and live. Don't repent and die.
    Clearly not referring to physical life or death.

    I have always had great respect for you. You and posters such as yourself are the reason I put that line in my signature. Those who just accept what others tell them will have a hard time refuting what you say because most of the time your replies are well written.
    That is why I was shocked when you brought physical death as an answer to what I said about Ezekiel 33.
    Someone with your background should know better.
    Unless you have a truly valid reason for bringing physical death into this answer in which case I apologize.
     
  14. twin1954

    twin1954 Baptist by the Bible

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    Of course they don't to someone who refuses to think.
    you just said the same thing I did but somehow miss the implication. God foreknowing who would trust Him and then making plans accordingly, no matter when He made them, is His reacting to us and learning what He did not know before. Which is what I said and destroys His omniscience and His immutability. There can be no other conclusion.
    I can agree with this statement. It isn't surprising that those who hold to free will theology can't see the contradiction in their theology.
    show me one passage of Scripture that says that God ever planned. He doesn't plan He purposes. There is a world of difference.
    He purposed every detail of how He would glorify Himself in mercy using those He called and equipped by the Spirit to preach the Gospel of the free and sovereign Grace of God in Christ Jesus alone

    I could never have opened my eyes except the Spirit open them. Which He did when He gave me life and faith in Christ alone. I pray that He do the same for you.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  15. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Death as a result of sin. Both physical and spiritual.


    No it isn't. In the OT, sacrifices related on to the Hebrews. Nowhere are there commands for Gentiles to sacrifice. That is the difference, and therein lies the truth in "context".

    Again, sin brought both. Had Adam never sinned, he might very well still be alive today.

    And, have you not considered or read:

    "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." -Jn. 10:10 (KJV)

    While you may not consider this to have anything referring to "physical life" as in in adding more years, but the promise is more true than most would admit. Name one Christian whose life has not been richer, fuller because of God in their life.

    But then you reply with comments like:

    "You have been around to long to not know the difference."


    Again, one thing I learned in seminary was three words: "context, context, context".

    What it goes back to is:
    1. To whom was Ezekiel sent to?
    2. And what was the message?
    "CHAPTER 33 Ezekiel 33:1-33 . RENEWAL OF EZEKIEL'S COMMISSION, NOW THAT HE IS AGAIN TO ADDRESS HIS COUNTRYMEN, AND IN A NEW TONE.

    Heretofore his functions had been chiefly threatening; from this point, after the evil had got to its worst in the overthrow of Jerusalem, the consolatory element preponderates.

    Ezekiel 24:26 Ezekiel 24:27 , till Jerusalem was overthrown, and the "escaped" came with tidings of the judgment being completed. So now, in Ezekiel 33:21 , the tidings of the fact having arrived, he opens his heretofore closed lips to the Jews. In the interval he had prophesied as to foreign nations. The former part of the chapter, at Ezekiel 33:2-20 , seems to have been imparted to Ezekiel on the evening previous ( Ezekiel 33:22 ), being a preparation for the latter part ( Ezekiel 33:23-33 ) imparted after the tidings had come. This accounts for the first part standing without intimation of the date, which was properly reserved for the latter part, to which the former was the anticipatory introduction [FAIRBAIRN].
    watchman-- Ezekiel 33:1-9 exhibit Ezekiel's office as a spiritual watchman; so in Ezekiel 3:16-21 ; only here the duties of the earthly watchman (compare 2 Samuel 18:24 2 Samuel 18:25 , 2 Kings 9:17 ) are detailed first, and then the application is made to the spiritual watchman's duty (compare Isaiah 21:6-10 , Hosea 9:8 , Habakkuk 2:1 ). "A man of their coasts" is a man specially chosen for the office out of their whole number. So Judges 18:2 , "five men from their coasts"; also the Hebrew of Genesis 47:2 ; implying the care needed in the choice of the watchman, the spiritual as well as the temporal ( Acts 1:21 Acts 1:22 Acts 1:24-26 , 1 Timothy 5:22 )."

    Source

    And point is, very very little of the OT was addressed to Gentiles.

    Moreover:

    "\\INTRODUCTION TO EZEKIEL 33\\

    This chapter treats of the prophet's duty, and the people's sins; contains a vindication of the justice of God; a threatening of destruction to those who remained in the land after the taking of the city; and a detection of the hypocrisy of the prophet's hearers. The duty of a watchman in general is declared, \\#Eze 33:1-6\\, an application of this to the prophet, \\#Eze 33:7\\: the sum of whose business is to warn the wicked man of his wickedness; and the consequence of doing, or not doing it, is expressed, \\#Eze 33:8,9\\, an objection of the people, and the prophet's answer to it, \\#Eze 33:10,11\\, who is bid to acquaint them, that a righteous man trusting to his righteousness, and sinning, should not live; and that a sinner repenting of his sins should not die,
    \\#Eze 33:12-16\\, the people's charge of inequality in the ways of God is
    retorted upon them, and removed from the Lord, and proved against them,
    \\#Eze 33:17-20\\, then follows a prophecy, delivered out after the news was
    brought of the taking of the city, threatening with ruin those that remained in the land, confident of safety, and that for their sins, which are particularly enumerated, \\#Eze 33:21-29\\, and the chapter is closed with a discovery of the hypocrisy of those that attended the
    prophet's ministry, \\#Eze 33:30-33\\."

    Source

    Funny, I can introduce you to some folks in the Baptist area that have the exact opposite opinion of me.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  16. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
    33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
    33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
    33:10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
    33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    Ezekiel is speaking specifically to Jews, but this message is also applicable to Gentiles.
    Can you really interpret "die in his iniquity" to be only about physical death?
    Would God not be referring to where they are going to spend eternity if the die in there iniquity?
    God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked.
    But precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of His saints.
    That would seem to say that God is more concerned with where we will spend eternity than about physical death.
    I do believe that God is concerned with every aspect of our life here on earth, even the hairs of our head He numbers, but this passage here in Ezekiel is talking about eternity.
    And people will die in there iniquity against God's will.
     
  17. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Shows the urgency of the Gospel message. (Even though the Old Testament context of the Ezekiel verses was not exactly like with the church today.)
     
  18. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Answers my posts.

    And also, how many posts have I gave that had commentary in direct support of what I said?

    I guess I'm just pulling this stuff out of my butt. :doh:

    Oh well.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  19. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Then what about those who "died in their iniquities" before the First Advent?

    You can't can you?

    How many people were "locked" out of the blessings of God because they were not of the "house of Israel"?

    You see it one way and one way only.

    Sorry.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  20. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Not sure if I will respond to your entire post, it was rather lengthy, and the more lengthy a response is, the more lengthy mine tend to be, which takes a great length of time for a slow poke like me.

    Sin is not pictured as leprosy or leaven throughout the Scriptures. One of the clearest definitions of what sin is, is in Romans Chapter 14:23 where Paul wrote "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." This little passage speaks volumes to the subject, especially concerning nonbelievers, but also to us when we have doubts where faith in Christ is concerned.

    People dead in sins and trespasses, do not want interaction with the true God of Scripture, the Scriptures tell us as much.

    1 Cor 2:14 - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Jn 14:16-18 - And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees Him nor knows Him

    Jn 3:18-21 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.


    Romans 8:5-8 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


    Not only do they not want, but cannot the receive things of the Spirit of God, nor please God. Bad news for libertarian free will, is what it is.
     
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