Romans 8:29 Foreknew Means Foreloved

[Doug Melven]

Sin is not pictured as leprosy or leaven throughout the Scriptures.

Why do you think God made so many laws in regards to leprosy?
What about leaven?
Take a good hard look at these 2 things and with a concept of sin in mind and tell me that these 2 aren't pictures of sin?

People dead in sins and trespasses, do not want interaction with the true God of Scripture, the Scriptures tell us as much.

I know those Scriptures too. I just don't see them the same way as you do.
How did Adam, Balaam, Abimelech King of Egypt in Abraham's time, and Cain all have conversations with God?
None of these men wanted anything to do with God.

 

[DeaconDean]

How did Adam, Balaam, Abimelech King of Egypt in Abraham's time, and Cain all have conversations with God?
None of these men wanted anything to do with God.

And none of those men, except Adam, had a relationship with God either.

So what's the point?

Didn't God use Cyrus for His purpose, yet nothing is said about salvation extended to King Cyrus?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Doug Melven]

And none of those men, except Adam, had a relationship with God either.

So what's the point?

That was the point.
How could unregenerate man, nonspiritual man have a conversation with a spiritual God?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

If He knows every choice that will be made, all the possibilities are already taken care of.God doesn't see time as we do. He knows the end from the beginning. This does not mean He caused everything between to happen. So because you don't understand the extent of God's omniscience it just can't take into account all of the various permutations that could come about.

I do not need to understand the full extent of God's omniscience to understand that Him knowing every choice that will be made, eliminates all "possibility" of the contrary, therefore eliminating possibility so far as He is concerned, our experiences can seem quite different. I have never suggested that because God knows every choice, that He causes every choice,however He has every right to cause whatever choices He pleases, that is what divine providence is all about.

 

[Doug Melven]

I think we are getting off topic here.
I think a new thread is in order about freewill.
I will start it in Controversial Christian Theology.
Libertarian freewill vs limited freewill

 

[DeaconDean]

That was the point.
How could unregenerate man, nonspiritual man have a conversation with a spiritual God?

The difference is, before the fall, there was nothing to prevent Adam from having a "conversation" with God.

As evidenced by what God did in creating man and then telling him what his duties were in the Garden, until the creation of Eve. And Gen. 3:8 shows us precedence that even before the fall, Adam had conversations with God prior to the fall, and then afterwards.

And apparently, both Cain and Able had some sort of "relationship" because they "sacrificed" to God, before Cain slew Abel. Now it could have been that Adam told them what to do, but the scriptures never say.

And even at that, how do you explain God speaking to Abram, before Abram was saved?

How do you explain Moses?

How about Jesus appearing to Paul on the Damascus Road, prior to Saul's conversion?

You asked:

"How did Adam, Balaam, Abimelech King of Egypt in Abraham's time, and Cain all have conversations with God?"

With the exception of Adam, none of those men had a relationship with God. That is what I said.

What does answer the question is:

"according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will".

Balaam, Abimlech, and Cain, all had a "purpose".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Doug Melven]

The difference is, before the fall, there was nothing to prevent Adam from having a "conversation" with God.

As evidenced by what God did in creating man and then telling him what his duties were in the Garden, until the creation of Eve. And Gen. 3:8 shows us precedence that even before the fall, Adam had conversations with God prior to the fall, and then afterwards.

And apparently, both Cain and Able had some sort of "relationship" because they "sacrificed" to God, before Cain slew Abel. Now it could have been that Adam told them what to do, but the scriptures never say.

And even at that, how do you explain God speaking to Abram, before Abram was saved?

How do you explain Moses?

How about Jesus appearing to Paul on the Damascus Road, prior to Saul's conversion?

You asked:

"How did Adam, Balaam, Abimelech King of Egypt in Abraham's time, and Cain all have conversations with God?"

With the exception of Adam, none of those men had a relationship with God. That is what I said.

What does answer the question is:

"according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will".

Balaam, Abimlech, and Cain, all had a "purpose".

God Bless

Till all are one.

According to Calvinistic interpretation of 1 Corinthians 2:14 these people should not have been able to have a conversation with God because they are dead in trespasses and sins.
I do not believe that is the correct interpretation.
I believe unregenerate people can still make a decision for God.

 

[twin1954]

God can speak to anyone He intends to but it isn't always unto salvation. He spoke to Cain to his condemnation. There are other examples, as Dean has pointed out, where God speaking to someone was ultimately to their condemnation.

But when God speaks to one of His chosen, loved and redeemed He does so by the Gospel in some way. The Gospel was preached to Abraham according to Paul in Gal. It certainly was to Adam in Gen. 3:15. To Noah in the Ark. And in every other instance of believers both in the Old and New Testaments.

 

[twin1954]

According to Calvinistic interpretation of 1 Corinthians 2:14 these people should not have been able to have a conversation with God because they are dead in trespasses and sins.
I do not believe that is the correct interpretation.
I believe unregenerate people can still make a decision for God.

The problem isn't with God it is with fallen man. That is why Paul says that the natural man cannot perceive the things of the spirit because they are foolishness to him. He neither wants, desires or is the least bit concerned with the things of the spirit. He doesn't want to hear and refuses every call of the Gospel.

That is what it means to be dead in trespasses and sins. It is less about ability, of which they have none, but about desire. They want their sin more than they want Christ. True they cannot hear or come but it is more true that they don't want to. Their condemnation isn't in their ability but in their desire.

God commands all men to repent but they don't want to and will not. That is why it takes an act of God in them and for them in order for them to come and believe.

You and I would still be in our sin if God hadn't first given us life and eyes to see the danger we were in. We cared nothing for spiritual things and lived in the spiritual death that is the nature of man.
But God, who is rich in mercy, did something in us and for us giving us life and faith. He did so because He would have us and did all that was necessary to our everlasting bliss with Him in Glory. He even, because of His great love wherewith He loved us, sent His well beloved Son to take our sin and suffer in our place putting away our sin by the sacrifice of Himself. He will not lose one for whom He set His love upon and sent His Son to redeem. Salvation is all of God.

 

[sdowney717]

John 5:39-41 New King James Version (NKJV)
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men.

Simply men are not willing on their own initiative to come to Christ. They always resist the Holy Spirit.
Romans 10:21
But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Israel proves by their history they resisted God, yet God bore long with them during their lives on the earth. But a slave of Sin shall not abide forever in God's household, only a son will abide forever, we are made free only by a sovereign action of God, His choice.

Acts 7:51
[ Israel Resists the Holy Spirit ] “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

John 8
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

 

[Doug Melven]

Israel proves by their history they resisted God, yet God bore long with them during their lives on the earth. But a slave of Sin shall not abide forever in God's household, only a son will abide forever, we are made free only by a sovereign action of God, His choice.

So it was God's choice that Israel resist Him?

 

[sdowney717]

So it was God's choice that Israel resist Him?

God commands all people naturally everywhere to repent and believe. Acts 17.

But God does not supernaturally enable all men to believe.
John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

People resist God of their own fallen natures.
Is God responsible for the fall of man and that man is a sinner?
God did let Satan into the garden.
Afterwards all mankind was born into an evil nature.
Which is God's will, that salvation in Christ would be entirely according to the grace of God according to His individual election for a person and not of themselves in any way whatsoever.

That is abundantly clear in scripture. AND this applies to both jew and gentile, as v24 so says.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[sdowney717]

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Do a word study on that word 'see', and you will know that unless God makes you born again first you will have no interest in believing in Christ. Being born again is not our choice to make, believing is our choice after which we are sealed.
Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

You can not trust Christ unless first being born of God.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)