Romans 6, Freed from sin?

[PROPHECYKID]

Romans 6:14 is an important verse. What's everyone thought on this verse?

Thanks.



14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The question here is, what does it mean to be under the law. Being obedient to the law does not mean being under the law. Being under the law means being under the condemnation of the law. Basically if you are a sinner you are condemned to die. If not you have life. What determines if you are a sinner or not? Its the law because sin is the transgression of the law. The sinner is condemned to die because he is a transgressor of the law, but God's grace pardons the sinner and removes you from this condemnation and gives you life. Grace as many people believe, was not invented in the New Testament. Everybody who is saved, has to be saved by Grace because no man is perfect. So every man must need grace in order to escape the penalty of breaking the law. So the belief that in the NT we have grace so the law is no longer valid is absurd, because the purpose of the law was never and is not to save. Salvation has always been by grace.

 

[Foghorn]

I would agree. Jesus is big on who our master is, and being servants. He says you can only serve one master. And vs 15 ff refers to this. (You hear a lot of blather about Paul not caring about Jesus' teaching. While Paul doesn't seem to quote Jesus, he commonly alludes to him. I take this section as based on Jesus' teachings.) So anyone who follows Jesus has changed masters. Sin is no longer their master. But still, as you point out we do sin. It's just not in the driver's seat anymore.

Amen bro!

Paul associates sin with the Law, an equation that isn't entirely fair. Lots of people have written about what that means, and in all honesty, I wouldn't presume to have the final word.

Nor would I. However, I think of it along these, before Christ we are under law, not grace. So, in this sense, while under the law, we are still sinner, slaves to sin.

But you're surely right that a big part of it is that while the Law can provide a standard, it can't enable us to do the right thing.

 

[hedrick]

On Heb 6:4 I will admit to having a particular agenda here. Jesus is so consistent in talking about God as forgiving that I avoid taking this passage and others like it as saying that there are situations where God will reject our repentance. And in fact 6:4 doesn't say that. It says that in some situation it is impossible for someone to come to repent, not that if they do God will reject it.

But it surely isn't anyone who falls away, or we are denying the meaning of the Prodigal Son parable. The literal sense is clear enough. A non-Christian can be brought to repentance by hearing the Gospel. But someone who has already heard the Gospel and lived as a Christian and still falls away, what more can you do? [The wording reflects a "decisive rejection of God's gifts" (Word commentary), not just sin.

But I simply can't bring myself to take this as a broad statement, because it would then contradict Jesus so clearly. So I tend to see this and other passages about eternal sins as warnings. Actions have consequences, and some actions can have nearly irreversible consequences. But as I've noted in another thread tonight, there's a difference between a warning and a doctrinal statement that no one can ever repent after falling away. In his encounter with the Rich Young Ruler, Jesus says that it's effectively impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom. Yet when challenged by his disciples, he notes that while it may be impossible for humans, everything is possible for God. So I would say that while intentionally rejecting God's grace once you've experienced may result in spiritual death, there is still hope in God.

 

[Foghorn]

Paul captures this very well in the next chapter. When someone does not know God, they are a slave to sin. We as humans are naturally sinful. That is our nature. If left to ourselves, we would just keep doing the wrong thing.

Nice explanation, thanks.

Now an individual might learn what is right and what is wrong through God's law, but unless the person has surrendered their life to Christ, this knowledge would have no effect as they would constantly go against their own mind and follow their sinful lusts. That is what being a slave is. You do not have a choice. Your body wants to sin and in your mind you want to do right, but you have no control and eventually you yield to the wrong.

Curious, what do you mean by a person surrendering their life to Christ? You mean as becoming a believer, or following the Spirit as a believer?

Reason I ask is, a believer does have a choice, he is no longer a slave to sin, he now has a choice not to sin. If someone is not a believer, it does not even apply to them.

Maybe I'm not following you, if so, I am sorry.

That is the delimna that a Human being faces with a knowledge of sin and no Holy Spirit presence and indwelling. So Paul speaks about this and says that the good that he wants to do, he does not and instead does the wrong. Then he asks the question, Who shall deliver me from this body of death and the answer is Jesus.

I'm a bit confused of your point here as well. Do you believe Paul is teaching about a believer or a non believer here in Romans 7?

 

[Foghorn]

When Jesus comes into your life he makes you a new creature and now you can rely on the power of the holy spirit in your life to lead you to do the things that is right in your mind.

Are you suggesting that before one is regenerated (a new creation in Christ) they have a desire to do good things but cannot? According to scripture I see the opposite, man is at enmity with God, man not only is not able, but he does not want to live for God.

Remember the knowledge comes from the law of God, but before you could not do it because you were a slave to sin. Now because of this spirit, you can do what is in your mind.

I'm really curious on how you believe about man before he is born again, do you believe he has a desire for God?

You can do what you actually want to do.

The reason why we want to do it after conversion is because it is a desire of the new heart. We do not have this desire before conversion, we cannot even relate to the truth of it before hand.

Here is where dying to sin comes in. Its simply dying to your own desired and letting God have his way in your life.

Please do not take any offense to my questions or statements. i enjoy, as I believe you do, good discussion on God's word, this is one way we grow, learn and sharpen each other.


God bless.

 

[St_Worm2]

Numbers 15:29
Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

To be clear, you are saying that given a certain circumstance, a Christian can/will be forgiven based upon the Law. Do you also believe that that a Christian can be condemned based upon the Law as well?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Curious, what do you mean by a person surrendering their life to Christ? You mean as becoming a believer, or following the Spirit as a believer?

Reason I ask is, a believer does have a choice, he is no longer a slave to sin, he now has a choice not to sin. If someone is not a believer, it does not even apply to them.

I mean becoming and believer and following the spirit as a believer because when you surrender you follow. You are correct here. The unbeliever does not have a choice and this he is a slave. The believer is free to choose.

I'm a bit confused of your point here as well. Do you believe Paul is teaching about a believer or a non believer here in Romans 7?

I think Paul is speaking from the perspective of someone who has not accepted Christ but has a knowledge of right and wrong. You can speak to an alcoholic every time who wants to quit. He knows he shouldn't but he cannot help it. Its like that. I think this can also apply to a believer who might still be weak and struggling with certain sins.

 

[Foghorn]

On Heb 6:4 I will admit to having a particular agenda here. Jesus is so consistent in talking about God as forgiving that I avoid taking this passage and others like it as saying that there are situations where God will reject our repentance. And in fact 6:4 doesn't say that. It says that in some situation it is impossible for someone to come to repent, not that if they do God will reject it.

But it surely isn't anyone who falls away, or we are denying the meaning of the Prodigal Son parable. The literal sense is clear enough. A non-Christian can be brought to repentance by hearing the Gospel. But someone who has already heard the Gospel and lived as a Christian and still falls away, what more can you do? [The wording reflects a "decisive rejection of God's gifts" (Word commentary), not just sin.

But I simply can't bring myself to take this as a broad statement, because it would then contradict Jesus so clearly. So I tend to see this and other passages about eternal sins as warnings. Actions have consequences, and some actions can have nearly irreversible consequences. But as I've noted in another thread tonight, there's a difference between a warning and a doctrinal statement that no one can ever repent after falling away. In his encounter with the Rich Young Ruler, Jesus says that it's effectively impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom. Yet when challenged by his disciples, he notes that while it may be impossible for humans, everything is possible for God. So I would say that while intentionally rejecting God's grace once you've experienced may result in spiritual death, there is still hope in God.

So are you saying it may be possibly that a believer can end up spiritually dead and therefore unable of himself to repent, it then would have to be something God himself has to do to restore him? Am I reading you correctly?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Are you suggesting that before one is regenerated (a new creation in Christ) they have a desire to do good things but cannot? According to scripture I see the opposite, man is at enmity with God, man not only is not able, but he does not want to live for God.
I'm really curious on how you believe about man before he is born again, do you believe he has a desire for God?

Have you never had the experience before where you was trying to get someone to come to church with you and they would tell you they know it is time to change their life. The knowledge of what they should do it there but the devil has them so wrapped up it is not so easy to get out. What you are saying is not wrong by any means. The bible does say in Romans 8:7 that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God. But one must come to a knowledge of his wrong before he comes to the cross. Some folks would come to God if there didn't have to give up anything. They want heaven but don't want to surrender anything. If all you had to do to go to heaven was get baptized (water baptism) almost everyone on earth would get to heaven.

Think about it for a second. You cannot only have a desire for God when you have the spirit. You must have a desire for God before, which is what is going to get you to come to God. The holy spirit speaks to the unbeliever as well even though he cannot dwell inside such a person.

The reason why we want to do it after conversion is because it is a desire of the new heart. We do not have this desire before conversion, we cannot even relate to the truth of it before hand.

I differ a little bit. I think after conversion the desire is stronger and the holy spirit actually allows us to be able to live for God. Before, the spirit would speak to you about your sin and you may have a desire to come to the cross.

Please do not take any offense to my questions or statements. i enjoy, as I believe you do, good discussion on God's word, this is one way we grow, learn and sharpen each other.


God bless.

Yes sure. I always love talks like these. Not offended at all.

 

[Foghorn]

I think Paul is speaking from the perspective of someone who has not accepted Christ but has a knowledge of right and wrong. You can speak to an alcoholic every time who wants to quit. He knows he shouldn't but he cannot help it. Its like that. I think this can also apply to a believer who might still be weak and struggling with certain sins.

But Paul is speaking of himself in Chapter 7, and we know Paul was a believer.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

But Paul is speaking of himself in Chapter 7, and we know Paul was a believer.

I believe Paul was speaking about himself before he met Christ. But like I said, even a believer can have this situation because Christian's sin too.

 

[Foghorn]

Have you never had the experience before where you was trying to get someone to come to church with you and they would tell you they know it is time to change their life. The knowledge of what they should do it there but the devil has them so wrapped up it is not so easy to get out.

Like the seeds on rocky ground?

What you are saying is not wrong by any means. The bible does say in Romans 8:7 that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God. But one must come to a knowledge of his wrong before he comes to the cross.

Coming to a knowledge of what is wrong is not enough. people before conversion have morals, they know what it right and wrong, to one degree or another. The only way someone comes to a true knowledge is by hearing the gospel and the Holy Spirit's drawing and conviction. As in John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. The Greek used "drag", which suggests it is not according to man's natural will, as you make point in Rom 8:7. And as you bring out more so in your following comment...........

Some folks would come to God if there didn't have to give up anything. They want heaven but don't want to surrender anything. If all you had to do to go to heaven was get baptized (water baptism) almost everyone on earth would get to heaven.

Many, as the seeds that fall on the rocky (and other types) soil quickly grab hold of the gospel, but when they see what it costs, what the gospel actually demands, they fall away.

Think about it for a second. You cannot only have a desire for God when you have the spirit. You must have a desire for God before, which is what is going to get you to come to God. The holy spirit speaks to the unbeliever as well even though he cannot dwell inside such a person.

Again, it is God's doing against the natural will (I believe). I personally believe the Holy Spirit gathers the elect of God. Without the Holy Spirit doing His work, no one would come; sure they will come with their own expectation in mind, they may like many things they hear about Christianity, they may have many misconceptions etc...
But the problem is, we cannot have it our way, we cannot have the jesus we want, we get the Jesus of the gospel, and to the world Jesus isn't the most appealing, especially not to the flesh.

 

[Foghorn]

I believe Paul was speaking about himself before he met Christ.

We will have to agree to disagree here.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Like the seeds on rocky ground?

Coming to a knowledge of what is wrong is not enough. people before conversion have morals, they know what it right and wrong, to one degree or another. The only way someone comes to a true knowledge is by hearing the gospel and the Holy Spirit's drawing and conviction. As in John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. The Greek used "drag", which suggests it is not according to man's natural will, as you make point in Rom 8:7. And as you bring out more so in your following comment...........
Many, as the seeds that fall on the rocky (and other types) soil quickly grab hold of the gospel, but when they see what it costs, what the gospel actually demands, they fall away.

Again, it is God's doing against the natural will (I believe). I personally believe the Holy Spirit gathers the elect of God. Without the Holy Spirit doing His work, no one would come; sure they will come with their own expectation in mind, they may like many things they hear about Christianity, they may have many misconceptions etc...
But the problem is, we cannot have it our way, we cannot have the jesus we want, we get the Jesus of the gospel, and to the world Jesus isn't the most appealing, especially not to the flesh.

I agree. The Holy spirit draws the unbeliever, but there must be a part to play for the unbeliever too. You can have an evangelistic meeting, all the unbelievers hear the message and only 20% accept Christ. The holy spirit spoke to all of them, but only 20% decided to listen. Its not like God decided who he wanted to save and force them.

 

[Foghorn]

I agree. The Holy spirit draws the unbeliever, but there must be a part to play for the unbeliever too. You can have an evangelistic meeting, all the unbelievers hear the message and only 20% accept Christ. The holy spirit spoke to all of them, but only 20% decided to listen. Its not like God decided who he wanted to save and force them.

Without getting to far from the point of the thread, can I ask, in your opinion why do you think only these 20% decided and not the others as well? What was the reason? Just curious of your thoughts on this.

 

[hedrick]

So are you saying it may be possibly that a believer can end up spiritually dead and therefore unable of himself to repent, it then would have to be something God himself has to do to restore him? Am I reading you correctly?

Yes, although of course it would be a former believer. I think that's the most sensible reading of Heb 6:4.

 

[Foghorn]

Yes, although of course it would be a former believer. I think that's the most sensible reading of Heb 6:4.

Do you believe a believer can loose his salvation?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Without getting to far from the point of the thread, can I ask, in your opinion why do you think only these 20% decided and not the others as well? What was the reason? Just curious of your thoughts on this.

Unless you believe in predestination, it has to be that the 20% decided to follow the voice of the spirit and not to harden their hearts. God never works against your free will.

 

[Foghorn]

it has to be that the 20% decided to follow the voice of the spirit and not to harden their hearts.

But what made them decide while others didn't?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

To be clear, you are saying that given a certain circumstance, a Christian can/will be forgiven based upon the Law. Do you also believe that that a Christian can be condemned based upon the Law as well?

Those who believe not on the only begotten Son of God are condemned already.

By Grace are we saved through faith, just as we are forgiven by God according to His mercy, for He will be merciful to our unrighteousness. The law is good and righteous, just as we should be merciful and forgiving to those who also sin against us through ignorance as well. But by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in the sight of God.

But Grace does not mean being free to sin, but rather being freed from sin. If a man continues in sin then he abides not in the Truth, and he will also die in his sin. He who believes in Jesus Christ also believes in the Word of God, and those who love Him shall keep his commandments.

I believe people use the definition of a Christian loosely, because a Christian is one who truly believes in every Word of God, not just in the man named Jesus. If one continues in unrighteous and sin, (for all unrighteousness is sin) then he confuses the grace of God with his own desire to be free to sin. If Christ truly dwells in you, then sin will no longer reign over your life, but rather righteousness.

Just as all who say they are of Christ, are not truly in Christ. Just as Jesus said why do you call me Lord, and do not the will of my Father? We are called to be holy, as he is holy. But if we wilfully sin, then God's Spirit will depart from us, for the darkness has no place in the Light. For it is our sins that separate us from the Love of God.

Hebrews 10:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.